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CT Did Obi Wan burn down the Homestead on Tatooine, killing Luke's Aunt and Uncle?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by DarthTalonx, Feb 20, 2018.

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Did Obi Wan destroy the Homestead to get Luke to join him?

  1. You may be onto something

    6 vote(s)
    24.0%
  2. From my point of view the Jedi are evil

    7 vote(s)
    28.0%
  3. More likely a rogue unit of the Empire

    12 vote(s)
    48.0%
  4. Jabba's people did it

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    We haven't seen it being Imperial protocol to conduct such wanton random acts. Lord Vader seems to have issued instructions to board and capture the ship. And the troopers seem to even fire warning shots if anything. I actually like watching ANH after ROTS, because it makes it feel like, "Who are the good guys here?", as we watch Imperial (formerly called Republic) troopers storm and board a vessel.

    Notice how also the troopers are to take prisoners alive.



    It is my understanding that at least on Vader's personal Destroyer etc that these were the highly professional elite (whether they be clone or otherwise) troopers. And they obey orders without question. They aren't rogues or succumbing to evil acts. And the Imperial Commanders would only issue instructions consistent with their objective. To find the stolen plans by the Rebel (scum) spies. It wasn't any part of the mission to take out uninvolved persons.

    As for the Jawas, I do believe Obi Wan when he says only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise. Though one wonders how he knows haha. Or whether he is attempting to seed doubt into a young Luke, who was just the previous night, once again reiterating his long term desire to go and join the Imperial Academy to train as a pilot.

    The Jawas were criminals though. Even Uncle Owen had accused them of trying to "push on him" junk. That is was stolen might even suggest during the questioning, the Imperials discovered the illegal racket and attempted to arrest them, to hand them over to the local Governor's authorities/local Stormtroopers. But the Jawas may have resisted, forcing the Troopers to defend themselves.

    I don't think everyone in the Empire is evil. Only the likes of Tarkin and that other Moff who got choked by Vader appeared to be quite genuinely mad. But not all forces would have been under their command. It's just that the Empire literally gains nothing from attacking the Homestead. We are meant to assume it was the Empire. But if anything it serves only to turn Luke, an Imperial citizen, against them.


    I agree.

    You do realise that Obi Wan was once a Jedi? Burning a Homestead, it's just not in his character...

    To be honest I do find it hard to believe Obi Wan Kenobi would do it. But likewise, I don't feel that the Imperials attacked the Homestead either. Unless there was proof that the Lars had openly colluded with the Rebellion, what reason or gain would the Empire have to do this?

    Luke himself was trying to join the Academy (Imperial Academy) every year it seems.

     
  2. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    I'm not really denying that, just wanted to give another possible perspective. I'm not saying that's what happened, just adding another imaginary scenario. We see the ST as very well-trained and disciplined on the Tantive IV. But that doesn't absolutely exclude the possibility that one platoon of them (probably/possibly different troopers) sent down to a desert planet with extreme weather conditions, cut off from the next in command, MAY have acted over-the-top in certain situations. PT clones may have been strictly disciplined, OT recruits maybe not so in all cases. As I said, it's just a thought, nothing more.
     
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  3. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    I think both PT and OT troopers were identical. Obey orders and only as good as their officers. Note the immediate change in the PT once the Jedi Generals are executed by orders.

    Possibly a rogue element of the Empire then burned the Homestead. The INCIS team will be on it.

    Troopers in Mos Eisley seemed disciplined. I don't think Obi Wan did it, or like Padme I can't believe it. But there are too many questions...

    Great signature btw
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  4. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    There's no logic in the Empire's move there though...

    It's just not in their character. They are shown to be orderly, civilised and a meritocracy. And Vader shown to be a family man, such that he wants to rule as Father and Son!



     
  5. Praetor_Canis

    Praetor_Canis Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Nothing in his character? You mean besides intentionally telling Padme about the temple and the younglings, and getting her upset enough so she’ll fly straight over to Vader to talk to him? In a way, he knowingly manipulated her emotions, so she could lead him to Mustafar. And before that, he told Anakin to spy on the Chancellor.

    Not to mention leaving his “brother” in a lava ditch. For all the lives that Vader that took in the Jedi temple, he at least had the decency to give them quick and fairly painless deaths. But apparently that was too much to ask for from Kenobi.

    Then there’s the whole “Vader betrayed and murdered your father” thing. I think just from the films, we can deduce that Kenobi can be quite manipulative if he thinks the ends justifies the means. And it list gets longer if you count the Clone Wars content.


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  6. TheMoldyCrow

    TheMoldyCrow Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2015
    Um, no? Where would he have even gotten the time to do it?
     
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  7. Praetor_Canis

    Praetor_Canis Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2018
    But not just the ground forces, Vader’s fleet should’ve set up a blockade of sorts on Tatooine‘s orbit. I’m pretty sure the loss of these plans warrant such a tight fist. But then again, maybe Vader WANTED the Death Star to fail, Palpy would’ve tried to get rid of his apprentice if his battle station was really that powerful.


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  8. Oissan

    Oissan Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    Um, there is nothing decent about killing people quickly, especially when you are doing it that way because you have to kill lots of people and not because you are trying to be merciful. It's also not all that easy to kill someone you care about, regardless of what condition that person is in. To even insinuate that leaving someone dying who turned out to be a psychopath is somehow worse than said psychopath committing mass-murder is absurd beyond belief.

    The whole idea is complete and utter nonsense, as is suggesting that Vader wanted the Death Star to fail because the Emperor might get rid of him if it worked out. How is that even supposed to make any sense? You don't lose the need for a henchman and apprentice just because you get a new shiny super-weapon. The Death Star replaces the need for the senate and in parts the need of having a big fleet, not the need of having someone who can go around fulfill your orders and keep any underlings in line.
     
  9. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    I really don't think Lord Vader was all that keen on the Death Star. He saw it as insignificant compared to the power of the Force. He clearly valued the meritocratic principles of the Empire (ESB). It would truly have been interesting to see him rule the galaxy as Father and Son with Luke.

    Vader succeeding Palpatine wold have been interesting. I actually think we might have seen his speech to Padme about "discuss what's in the best interest of the people, and then just do it" in action.

    As for Obi Wan not necessarily being truthful, that's a good point. "You must break through the fog of lies that the Jedi have built around you. And embrace, a larger view of the Force."

    Indeed it's interesting to note that the Empire isn't shown to kill without reason. For the most part it is a peacekeeping entity, and more effective than the apathetic Jedi and the corrupt Senate of old. It is sadly down to a few Tarkins who ruin it all.

    The Death Star Project was a mistake and needless. An Imperial Fleet should gone to Yavin and obliterated the Rebellion. Indeed at Endor, had the overconfident Emperor not tied the hands of the Fleet, they could have wiped out the Rebel scum there and then.

    I feel like the Empire was a meritocracy that rebound its way back in ESB. You can even see honest and competent commanders in ANH, ESB and ROTJ. It is the likes of a few Tarkins and that Moff that Vader choked at the conference table who ruined it all.

    Honestly the Empire in general didn't seem to act without reason. Even the troopers boarding the Tantive fire warning shots. Likewise on Bespin. Likewise they offer surrender on Endor. Thus it makes little sense that they burnt down the Homestead. Is this the Jedi manipulating or twisting the truth?

    Looks like INCIS will have to look into what happened on Tatooine.
     
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  10. CLee

    CLee Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2017
    ^Why do you consider the old Jedi apathetic or ineffectual? They seemed pretty effective in I and II although sending them on assignments did seem to be pretty controversial to where they were fairly constrained by that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  11. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    I actually like the Jedi Order. Especially Yoda and Windu, Obi Wan etc. I think the problem is by the time they decide to take action and be Jedi, it is too late. They too often are part and parcel of an ineffective Republic. They tolerate its corruption and don't act.

    It is almost like Qui Gon's alter ego, Raaz Al Ghul, the Jedi training isn't enough. It is the will to act. Not serve the Republic, but to be Jedi.

    An Empire with Jedi in it (Imperial Knights) would be rather epic.
     
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  12. Praetor_Canis

    Praetor_Canis Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Personally, drawing from real life inspirations for the Jedi: Monks and Taoist Priests/Scholars. I find that they would’ve been far more effective if they distanced themselves from the governing entity. If you like philosophy, read Chuang-tzu, he even specifically says that the path to balance lays outside of politics and governments.

    In my mind, the perfect way of existence for a Jedi would be the “wandering swordsman”.


    I completely agree with you, it’s all because of that crazy old man. And frankly, if Obi-wan hadn’t shown up at that exact moment with intents to kill or if Padme had been more willing to accept change and make the best of the situation as is, things would’ve gone differently for the empire.

    If Padme had accepted Vader’s proposition, there would’ve been a very different empire that’s way more efficient in rebuilding and maintaining peace in the galaxy. And between these two, the whole Death Star fiasco could’ve been completely avoided.


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    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  13. Praetor_Canis

    Praetor_Canis Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2018

    Whoa, that’s some serious stuff you’re raving about. I thought we were sticking to “whimsical” alternate interruptions of a certain character’s actions.

    But since we’re on this note. Let’s just think this through. I, for one, believe there is a difference between long-term torture and a quick death. I also believe, if a person has already determined that killing is necessary, then the way they go around doing it shows varying degrees of decency. Thus, if you truly care about someone, you would do stuff like ‘mercy killing’ and giving them a proper burial, instead of leaving them in a ditch somewhere. Especially if leaving him there only solidified his hatred of the Jedi and position in the dark side. There are plenty of ways that Vader and the 501st could’ve chosen to kill the people in the temple, some of them probably way more horrendous than death by lightsaber.

    Now, the way I see it, Vader’s not a psychopath. He’s a Samurai, more akin to a feudal swordsman than the other Jedi. He’s loyal to a specific person, instead of to ideals or to the Jedi order. He’s willing to whatever is required for that person. By the old values of feudal societies, say Bushido, he’s the perfect retainer/warrior. But unfortunately for him, his friends are of more modern views and never really bothered to try to bring him around to their way of thinking. Also unfortunate for him is that Palpatine used his way of thinking against him to devastating effect.

    And as for the getting rid of Vader after having the perfect super-weapon theory. How does it not make sense? Have you learned any human history at all? Ancient empires? All I can say is that’s what happens to every great henchman/general in the history of empires and dictatorships. As soon as the throne is safe enough, as soon as there are no more threats from rebellions or invasions, the emperors would always, always, always start worrying about their designated successor or lead henchmen. And considering Palpatine, he’s both crazy and paranoid enough to get rid of Vader and replace him with far less powerful.

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  14. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    I subscribe to the theory that Boba Fett accompanied the Stormtroopers to the Lars' homestead and that he was responsible for the torching. Vader would have likely ordered the Stormtroopers to capture Owen and Beru and bring them in for questioning. Boba Fett, after getting that information, would have had more motive to kill them in order to keep that information from getting anywhere else.
     
  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    In the newcanon short story in From A Certain Point of View (Added Muscle, by Paul Dini) he was tracking the droids - but arrived on the scene of both murders (that of the Jawas and that of the Larses) after the stormtroopers had been and gone, in both cases.
     
  16. Oissan

    Oissan Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    You accusing someone else of "raving" is sort of funny...

    There was absolutely nothing merciful about what happened in the Jedi Temple. You are connecting things that have nothing to do with each other. Anakin and the clones went there to kill everything that lived. There was no no "mercy killing" and no decency, there was an order to kill, so everyone got killed in what amounts to be the most efficient fashion. In no way, shape or form is that comparable to a situation in which you could torture a person or kill him quickly. This was treated as a combat situation, in combat you don't go around and torture people, you take down the target and move on to the next.

    The Nazis also applied quite a few techniques to speed up killings and make them more efficient so that they could kill as many as possible in short order. There was nothing decent or merciful about that either, even though they clearly could have taken more time to mutilate or torture those people if they had wanted to. Granted, that didn't apply to everyone, but it clearly shows that just because you kill someone quickly, doesn't mean that there was anything decent about it.

    And no, killing someone "out of mercy" is most definately not the only way to go if you care about someone. There is also the possibility of not being able to kill someone because you care about that person, which is exactly the position Obi Wan is in. He cannot kill Anakin. Killing someone isn't easy, killing someone who you love is even harder. To act as if some supposedly "rational" idea of ending someone's life out of mercy is something you can just do on a whim speaks of nothing but ignorance. Most people are incapable of doing that, regardless of whether it would be better for the other person or not.

    Well, maybe you should try and learn about history for once, instead of throwing around rather pathetic insults like that.
    1) no, Emperors did not "always" worry about their designated successor, and they sure as heck didn't always get rid of them, because that just means there is another who will take his place instead
    2) the idea that the Death Star would somehow make Palpatine perfectly save against any underlings is completely absurd. The opposite is the case. Palpatine is not on the Death Star, anyone who controls it can indeed try to take down the Emperor without the Emperor being able to do anything about it. Anakin is loyal to Palpatine, there can be zero doubt about it, the movies prove it. He isn't interested in siding with any other leader to topple Palpatine, which isn't something you can take for granted with any random admiral or general. The galaxy is huge, Palpatine needs an enforcer to keep everyone in line. Common people arent any good for the role. A high-ranking official is still a simple human, he has authority through his rank, not his skills. Vader, on the other hand, can't just be taken down by a few guards with guns, and he can kill you from far away. He is exactly who you keep around to make sure that those who help you control the galaxy know their place and don't start to get any ideas. Vader alone isn't any threat to Palpatine, and his loyalty to Palpatine far exceeds any temptation to side with any other Imperial leader to overthrow him.

    The Emperor himself can't be everywhere at once, and he can't just go about and deal with any unruly underlings. Vader is far more important to guarantee his control over the galaxy than the Death Star could ever be. The Death Star is a tool, a tool that allows Palpatine to finally get rid of the senate and keep all systems in line through the might of this battlestation. What it isn't, is something that makes Vader superfluous, because control over the galaxy doesn't just rest on controlling those you have subjugated, but also on keeping those who help you subjugate in line.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
  17. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    In that case, he still could have done the torching. Maybe he found Owen and Beru alive and continued torturing them for information. Or maybe just something else and then determined he wanted all evidence torched.
     
  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The story was pretty clear that it was already torched (and them dead) when he got there.

    From TFA cross sections, we know the First Order has flametroopers, and from, I think, Battlefront, we know the Empire has flametroopers. It's reasonable conjecture that Imperial flametroopers did the actual torching.
     
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  19. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Gotcha. Still a cool theory though!

    And thanks for mentioning those short stories, they sound pretty interesting, I'm going to check it out when I get a chance.
     
  20. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Like Samurai? Or the Emperor's Guards in China. Yes the Jedi had that mystic spiritual element to them. Above petty politics. I actually liked Windu's actions in ROTS. I almost felt like the Jedi could have been like a League of Shadows type entity, moving in to restore the balance. They became too part and parcel of the corrupt system that was the Old Republic.

    Yes indeed. I don't think Vader was at all keen on the Death Star. And from we are shown, neither are several high ranking Imperial commanders. On the one hand, had Padme joined Anakin/Vader to rule, then we may have had the best of both worlds. An end to the corruption and ineffectual leadership that plagued the Republic for years. An end to abandoning the Outer Rim to criminals and slavers. (At least the Empire did police these worlds under Palpatine, so hats of to him for that!). I actually think a Vader/Luke coup to succeed Palpatine would have also resulted in a new Empire that perfected itself. Either way the Republic is shown to be stale. Palpatine's speech in TPM and ROTS was right.

    Yes I wonder about Obi Wan's entry. It actually seemed ill timed. (I remember a funny meme, where in AOTC, Obi Wan looks over the army on Kamino and says "I shall bring peace to my new Empire" haha). As for in ANH, I love his character of course. But one wonders, who did it really serve for the Homestead to burn down? Luke stayed and declined his offer because of his family. For what reason, would the Galactic Empire have to kill them? And burn down the Homestead too? Luke himself was excited to join the Imperial Academy.

    I think there is more to the Homestead incident that meets the eye. Rebel activity cannot be totally ruled out at this point.

    But it's just conjecture at this point. We cannot rule out possible Rebel involvement in this nefarious plot. Who's purpose did it really serve that the Homestead be burned and the Lars taken out? This was Luke Skywalker who was off to join the Imperial Academy. Who declined Obi Wan's invitation to help his family on his home planet. An Empire which was shown to be taking prisoners on board the Tantive IV. To be policing the streets of Mos Eisley against the scum and villainy. As for the Jawas, again Owen Lars noted how they were pushing junk and tricks on him. Not to mention R2D2 and C3PO were clearly acquired property, not their own.

    As for the Empire, they are not shown to be killing unnecessarily at the Stormtrooper level, or under competent meritocratic officers. It is only the nutcases like Tarkin who are shown to be utterly mad. Clearly a great degree of the Imperial command (the Death Star conference room) object or disagree with the Death Star programme, including Lord Vader himself.

    You should see the Robot Chicken stories too. They explain a lot!

     
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  21. CLee

    CLee Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2017
    Presumably they were killed because they either defiantly refused to say where Luke or the droids or earnestly insisted they didn't know but weren't believed. The Stormtroopers just got the idea that, harboring or acquiring and then sending off droids carrying the plans, they must be Rebel supporters.
     
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  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Boba Fett's theory was that the Empire was keeping info contained - by killing everyone proven to have had contact with those droids.
     
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  23. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    Again conjecture. The Imperials were not shown to kill unnecessarily on screen. Not the Stormtroopers. The only ones we see acting with barbarity are the likes of Tarkin. The forces under Vader and on Mos Eisley clearly act with protocols and discipline.

    In any case, the Lars/Skywalkers had nothing to do with the stolen plans. The Troopers, had they discovered who the Jawas had sold the droid too, would have known that the Jawas were criminals for stealing and selling droids. They would have ended their illicit operation. The Lars would have been a victim of such a crime, and not have anything to do with the Rebellion.

    Thus the troopers would have had no need to actually kill the Lars, let alone burn down their Homestead. The Lars never sent off the droids carrying the plans.

    I was under the impression that Boba Felt is working for Jabba in ANH, since he is shown in ANH to be part of the "twerps" in his official protection detail.

    The Empire was merely looking for the droids. I am not sure why the Homestead would have been burnt to the ground. There really isn't anything in it for the Empire. The only people who benefitted from this, was the Rebellion.

    As for the Jawas, well they were illicit traders. No doubt when the Troopers attempted to apprehend them, the Jawas opened fire, and the Stormtroopers had to defend themselves.
     
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  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Boba works for everybody who can afford him. That doesn't mean he has to spend all his time at Jabba's side though.
     
  25. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    I think Battlefront (the original) showed Dark Troopers, but I don't believe their weapon was a flamethrower, I thought it was that special forces blaster?

    As for the Empire, there really wasn't a reason for them to burn down the Homestead though.

    This is not our mission! I am your commander. Stand down!

    The only reason the Empire would have gone there would have been discovering the Lars had been duped into buying stolen droids from the Jawa dealers. And if they did indeed go to the Lars home, they would simply have waited. The Lars/Luke did nothing wrong.

    As for the Jawas, if it was the Empire, then it is conceivable that they resisted arrest, having been caught dealing in illicit materials/stolen goods.

    The only one who seems to gain from all this is the Rebellion. They turned a future Imperial cadet against the Empire.
     
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