Did Obi-wan fail Anakin?

Anakin fell for one simple reason and one simple reason alone. He was afraid to lose the people he cared about. He was greedy. He wanted the power to stop death and since the Jedi would not give him the answers, he turned to the Sith Lord who did have the answers. It wasn't because he hated or liked Mace. Mace was in his way. Mace was preventing Anakin from saving Padme. If Palpatine dies, Padme dies. And there's no way in hell Anakin's going to let that happen. No sir, no way in hell. It's either Mace or Padme and guess who Anakin will pick time and again. This is where Anakin fails himself. He doesn't act like a grown adult. Instead he acts like a petutlant child, afraid to grow up and face the hardships of life. Obi-wan showed him the path. It was up to him to take it. Qui-gon would say the same thing and it would be Qui-gon who is betrayed, had he been there. Because Qui-gon would say the same thing. Palpatine was too dangerous to live and that the Jedi cannot stop death.

 

I have long held to the belief that the majority of the balme belongs to Yoda. He trained almost every generation of Jedi while the Sith moved in shadow. His penchant for looking to the future ultimately doomed the order. Qui-Gon was right to chastise Kenobi for not keeping his concentration where it needed to be.

Tell that to all the dead Jedi.

Yep. The Council scene in TPM sums them up nicely.

Bingo. Who died and made Windu the Judge and Executioner?

Exactly the point I was trying to make when I said Kenobi failed Anakin when he compromised.

Anakin fell because he got started late and was stuck with a NOOB for a Master.

 

Agreed. And Yoda's conversation with Qui-Gon's spirit in the novelization, which is mentioned but not shown in ROTS, seems to me to affirm that this is indeed what GL intended.

 

A shame that we didn't (in the very least) get the voice-over for that scene in ROTS.

 

Anakin was like those ten year olds that you find playing counter-strike. Some of them have great potential but most are whiny and annoying.

It was his own stupid fault that he fell to the dark side.

 

You're getting the wrong idea from that scene. Yoda does not need a lecture from Qui-Gon on compassion. Yoda is compassionate. Yoda knows the difference between the light side and the dark side. Qui-Gon is explaining why the Sith cannot Force ghost.

Do you really think Lucas agrees with the Yoda haters? Sad.

"Do not blame yourself, my friend." - Qui-Gon ( Lucas-approved ROTS novel )

Of course, it's always possible I have a defective copy of the novel.
Apparently, some people have a different version, in which Qui-Gon says:

"Blame yourself, you *******."

And once again, the first conversation between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in TPM is being misrepresented and blown way out of proportion. That scene in no way implies that Yoda ignored the Living Force. The TPM novel, as I have shown, also contradicts the anti-Yoda position.

 

Eh, all Sith are fools for embracing the Dark Side.

Yeah, it does seem to be and given that Yoda seems to be the sole Jedi who has any idea of what's going on he clearly is more in touch with the Force than the other Jedi.

 

Nope Ankain fell for a variety of reasons. His main one was fear of losing Padme, but there were other ones such his lack of emotional control, his distrust of the Jedi and his faith in Palps. Jedi like Mace were a major reason why Anakin fell. Because Mace was such an **** to Anakin, Anakin had no problems believing Palps when he said the Jedi were evil. If Ankain trusted the Jedi then he simply would have went to them for help in saving Padme. That's why it was important for Sids to sow distrust between the Jedi and Anakin. That's also why he waited until Obi-Wan was off-planet to reveal himself, because OB1 was the one Jedi Anakin trusted. Obi-Wan on Coruscant=Jedi Anakin, Obi-Wan off Coruscant=Sith Anakin.

Yoda is just as ignorant as the rest of the Jedi. All he did was say the Dark Side is growing. He was in the dark as much as anyone.

 

I'm not saying he knew exactly what was happening but only Yoda realized that the Clone Wars starting as a loss for the Jedi, that arrogance was growing within the Order, suspected that something was wrong about Palpatine, sensed Anakin's pain, and was able to talk to Qui-Gon. He was still in the dark about the Sith being in charge of the Republic, Palpatine being Sidious, etc. but he had some sense that things were going far worse than some of the other Jedi thought they were.

 

Yoda did realize that arrogance was infecting the Order and did sense Anakin's pain, but what did he do about it? Nothing. As for the other things, practically everyone on the Jedi Council knew something was wrong with Palpatine and knew the Clone Wars was a mistake. And Qui-Gon contacted Yoda, not the other way around.

 

It's in the script as well.

Qui-gon is telling Obi-wan to pay attention to the future, but also to keep his eyes on the present. It's no different than when he says to the Council that Obi-wan has much more to learn about the Living Force. Like I said, the Jedi didn't ignore the Living Force all together. They just kept looking to the future in their daily activities and only focused on the moment, when they were in a fight.

 

"Do not blame yourself, my friend." -Qui Gon (Lucas-approved ROTS novel)

A pathetic attempt (by the powers that be) to deflect the criticism that belongs solely to Master Yoda. Maybe a lecture from Master Qui Gon would've done his old stubborn green-arse some good.

As Grand-Master, HE is the one to take the blame. The return and subsequent revenge of the Sith happened on his watch. The arrogance that permiated the entire Jedi Order was direct result of his teachings. For 700+ years he passed his flaws down from one generation to the next. Taking a line from the CT, perhaps he should have sought someone else's council on who should best train other Jedi.

 

then by that logic, since he never relinquished the role while in exile, Yoda must also get the credit for destroying the Sith in ROTJ. If he gets the blame for Anakin's actions in the PT, he gets credit for them in the OT as well...also, since he trained Luke, who in turn converted Anakin back to the Light Side, Yoda gets the credit. If the return and subsequent revenge of the Sith happened on his watch, than even though he dies in ROTJ, he set in motion the events that led to the return of the Jedi. Luke's confidence that he can defeat the Emperor and Vader was also a direct result of his teachings. For 700 years he passed on his flaws, but for 900, he passed on his knowledge. I would be remiss if I didn't point out that by TESB, he had been training Jedi for 800 Years, not 700 though...Your own last statement defeats the rest of your argument quite soundly. Considering he trained Luke, who converted Anakin back, his own council was quite sufficient.

 

Pretty bold statements there, and probably true too. But if Yoda had his way, then Anakin would've never been trained. It was the other Council Members, and Qui Gon's dying wish, that brought Anakin in. Qui Gon should probably take some of the blame here, and Obi-Wan too. And I still get the feeling that if Yoda, Mace, or Saesee Tiin had trained Anakin things would've been different. But I do agree, Obi-Wan trusted Anakin completely and did a good job training him, so Obi-Wan didn't do anything really wrong.

 

I'm a huge Anakin Skywalker fan, I admit. I'd love to shift the blame of Anakin's turn to someone else, but it wouldn't be fair. Sure, Obiwan's training wasn't perfect. He knew of Anakin's and Padme's relationship and turned a blind eye. He saw Anakin engaging in behaviors unbecoming of a Jedi and wasn't overly concerned. Someone could also claim that Yoda and Qui-Gon were to blame. But really, when it comes down to it, Anakin wrestled with himself in the council chambers. He knew what the stakes were and what was right and wrong. That's why Obiwan and everyone else get the pass in my book. Obiwan and everyone else instilled in Anakin the difference between right and wrong. Anakin knew what was up and what he was going to sacrifice leaving the council chambers and go to Palpatine's office. He had already decided to cut Mace's hand off when he shed that single tear and left. It was Anakin alone that allowed for the creation of Darth Vader.

 

If the Council had listened to Yoda Darth Vader would have never been born as Anakin would have never been a member of the Jedi Order and while Obi-Wan would have trained him anyway, Anakin wouldn't have chaffed under the rules of no attachment. Obi-Wan and Anakin also wouldn't have been chosen to be Padme's protectors which would lessen Anakin's temptation greatly.

 

It wasn't a case of Anakin believing that the Jedi were bad or not, that drove him to turn. It's the fact that he doesn't want to lose his loved ones and to keep that from happening, he must become all powerful. In an effort to make up for the fact that he a) didn't train as hard as he should've and b) his inability to grow up. His reasoning is plain as day.

ANAKIN: "I need him to help me save Padme."

ANAKIN: "Just help me save Padme's life. I can't live without her. I won't let her die. I want the power to stop death."

It wouldn't matter if he asked the Jedi for help, there is no help to offer. The Force cannot be used that way and they will not attempt it, for anyone. This is why Anakin went to Yoda in the first place, who told him that his only solution is to accept the loss and move on. To let go of his fears. Palpatine offered him hope where the Jedi could not. It wasn't about trust. Trust was Anakin's excuse to do what he did. It's his justification for killing everyone, because if he cannot justify it to himself, then he's no better than Darth Sidious.

 

I only said 700+ to cover his late start, and the fact that he wasn't at the temple training younglings right away. So for the mostpart, for the last 700+ years his paw-print was all over the Jedi Order. As for giving him credit in the OT, that's fine.

He still has the blood of an entire Order on his paws.

Bold is, as bold does.
If Yoda didn't want him trained, then Kenobi's rediculous promise to be another maverick would have worked well enough to serve the story. Plus it would have validated Ben's line about being reckless. The way TPM was set up was stupid. Kenobi was too much of a NOOB to get Anakin for a Padawan right out of the gate.

Kenobi's blind eye enabled Anakin's unhealthy behavior.
A Jedi Master should have known better.

Good. Then maybe we'd have seen the real Darth Vader instead of the watered down wuss that the PT turned him into. IMO, He didn't do it for the nookie, or even a wookiee... his quest was about power, for power's sake... I could care less how Lucas tries to spin it now.

 

I feel bad for Obi-Wan in that one regard, he was the only Jedi who trusted Anakin. Yoda and Mace openly distrusted Anakin and I thought it was disgusting. Mace even said, right to Anakin's face, "if what you've told me is true, then you will have gained my trust." That's outrageous! Why shouldn't he trust Anakin? No wonder Anakin turned, Palpatine completely trusted Anakin. It would be awful to sit on the Jedi council and be suspected all the time simply because you are reckless. Anyways, the way I see it, you gotta have trust, I wouldn't call it an excuse, because lack of trust was really holding Anakin back, and poor Obi-Wan was alone in that regard.

 

The actions and attitudes of the PT Jedi are disgusting at best.
They hardly resemble the remark that old Ben made about them in Star Wars.
Kenobi had every reason to trust Anakin, the boy saved his backside on nine or ten different occasions. The lack of trust and respect offered by the High Council members towards Anakin is the perfect example of the Order's collective elitist mentality... they were pompous right up to the end.

 

Why shouldn't he trust Anakin? I'll tell you, he gave them reasons not to trust him anymore. First he has a pretty piss poor attitude when he finds out that he won't be a Master. Such anger is unbecoming of a Jedi. A Jedi is humble before others, no matter who they are and no matter what is told to them. Anakin acted like a petulant child and not a mature, grown man. Worse, he knew that the Council would not make him a Master because they vote on such things and do not accept outside influence. He just got done telling Palpatine this, not more than a half hour or so ago. So to act like this is a big shock makes him look like a dumbass. Worse, Anakin becomes egotistical.

Another reason for the distrust lies with the fact that his relationship with Palpatine has apparently gone astray. It looks like Anakin is recieving favortism from the Chancellor. Everytime Anakin does something, Palpatine is always heaping praise and all kinds of spoils upon the boy. Palpatine keeps recommending Anakin for missions, which the Council had been hesitant to give him in the first place. Take the Battle of Muunilist (sp) where Palpatine says that Anakin should be put in charge of the fighter squadrons, when Yoda and Obi-wan feel that he's not ready for such an assignment. So the Council is worried that Anakin might be using Palpatine or at the very least, allowing himself to be used for an advantage.

Then there's the fact that Anakin, after revealing who Palpatine is to Mace, is filled with great confusion. Mace is worried and naturally so, that Anakin will do something foolish. This is why he says that Anakin must stay behind, in order to gain his trust. Mace suspects that if Anakin went with him, he will do something. He will either not fight if a fight breaks out or he will be forced to pick sides in the worst possible way. He is a liability to the four Jedi Masters. Think about it. If your best friend turned out to be a hardened criminal, capable of anything and you're tasked with bringing him/her down, are you going to be able to do so without a second thought? Can you in all honestly say that you won't betray the police or FBI? Can you avoid letting your personal feelings get in the way? Or if you were the arresting officer, can you trust someone like that?

Sure, it seems cruel, but Mace had every reason. And he was right, Anakin was not to be trusted. He had a personal stake in this. He wanted Padme to live and didn't care about anything else, except that.

 

It would matter if he asked the Jedi for help because Obi-Wan would have helped him. He already broke the rules for Anakin and would do so again. If Anakin had trusted the other Jedi as much as he trusted Obi-Wan, then there is no way he would have turned. You say Anakin gave the Council plenty of reason not to trust him, but that statement works in reverse as well.

1.A Jedi is always humble before others? Are you serious? After Padme was almost assassinated what did they do? They immediately dimissed her claims and told her there is no way a Jedi could be an assassin. That's not humility, that's arrogance. Then there's Jocasta Nu and her, " If it's not in our archives, it doesn't exist speech." Telling people how to run their lives isn't being humble.
2.Anakin thought that the Council wouldn't let him join and be a Master. That is true. However when they tell him they have approved Palps appointment, he thinks they have changed their minds and that's why he gets pissed when he finds out that's not the case. Pretty cool of the Jedi to tell him he's the Chosen One, but can't be a Master. It's also okay for the Jedi to manipulate Anakin for their own purposes, but its wrong for Anakin to be mad about it. Yep, Anakin being mad sure is a terrible thing.

 

Palps in a landslide over Mace.

And you forgot Kenobi's uber-humble-line about "picking up another pathetic lifeform".

 

I wish the film showed it was power for power's sake. If anything the film shows the root cause is fear and with Anakin never getting attatched to Padme that fear wouldn't have been as strong so he would have never fallen and the Sith would be destroyed without the rise of the Empire.

Uh, Obi-Wan DID trust Anakin in RotS. As far as Anakin goes they'll treat him like an adult when he's willing to start acting like one.

If said father figure was the man behind the Clone Wars, the attempted assassination of my wife etc. I wouldn't save him.

Which was a joke.