Did Obi-Wan have the right to defy Anakin in front of Padme?

Ok yes he killed children. But does an one read the EU books or see ANH or read AOTC book. The Tuskens as a group kill people for no reason. Why did they take Shim? No reason they just wanted to. The 30 or so men went to get her back. They killed them why? No reason they just wanted to. They do that the EU books to adn in ANH. They attacked Luke why? No reason they just wanted to and I have to feel sorry for them? They kill people for no reason. Anakin did people a favor in the area. I mean Clegg even says they killed al most all the men that went out to save Shmi. Which by the way why don't you feel sorry for those men how went out to get her and were killed.

 

anidamia142,

Well, I wish the JC would make it a rule that people have to put in their real ages. I don't want to yell at someone and then find out they're only 13 or 14. But, here goes. I'll keep the 'yelling' to a minimum.

On the subject of killing the Tusken women and children, if GL had shown that the women and children were just as vicious as the men, then the killing of them might be justified. Or if the women and children were just as vicious and as finely trained fighters as the women and children of the Fremen in Dune. But he didn't show that and we can't take it for granted.

Why did the Tusken people attack "for no reason." Ah, hello, the Tusken people are the original inhabitants of Tatooine and have been there far longer than the "poor moisture farmers" who are stealing their land and their water. No reason indeed!

While I think that what Anakin did was reprehensible, and totally unjustified, I would feel even worse if he had 'liked' what he did. He didn't like it, he was filled with remorse and guilt. But, instead of letting him meditate on the remorse and guilt, Padme excuses it by saying, "Oh, you're only human."

No, he is not "only human." He has been trained as a Jedi for 10 years and should be able to control his emotions. None of that training seems to have taken hold of him. Use of a lightsaber, yes. Use of the 'force' voice, yes. And all the other uses of the force, like being able to jump onto Zam's speeder, those he mastered. But the most important lesson for a Jedi to learn, he missed.

To all of you on the subject of Obi-Wan 'lying' to Luke in ANH--Obi-Wan DIDN'T know that DV was Luke's father because GL didn't know himself until halfway thru the script writing for ESB. So, Obi-Wan didn't lie. What he told Luke was the TRUTH at the time.

GL is who made Obi-Wan the 'liar' by making this change in characters by combining Anakin Skywalker (who was dead in ANH) and Darth Vader's characters. So, let's not call Obi-Wan a liar ever again! Okay? Or I'll go to the Classic Trilogy board and prove it to you.

Thank you. Class dismissed.

 

re: obiwan double talk...
it all depends on your point of view; dooku was still considered one who had much to learn despite his status as a master

vader and anakin are the same person, and no matter the age a pupil is still a pupil until he or she turns around to teach his or her master. (kinda like the parent is always the parent no matter how old the child is) again, dooku is refered to as an old padawan by yoda....

luke claims he is a jedi like his father before him, after instruction received from yoda.

keep in mind too that obiwan is still a learner when achieves the level jedi knight.

 

poweranger,

Dooku was told he still had much to learn by YODA, who had been training Jedi for 800 years.

When Yoda and Luke spoke on Dagobah, just before Yoda died in ROTJ, he told Luke the only thing he lacked to become a Jedi knight was to face Vader again. Luke did just that, refused the dark side, was willing to die, rather than accept the dark side, and he passed his trials and became 'a Jedi, like my father before me.'

 

Lady_Sami_J: Very thought-provoking post.

Interesting view of the Tuskens as a sort of Native American tribe in the GFFA. One of my favorite subjects is history, and I think that what Europeans did to the Native Americans when they came to America is beyond reprehensible. Because my husband and I are both part Native American ourselves, I have developed an intense hatred for Andrew Jackson. I would love to see Lucas show some sort of back story on the Tuskens, as to whether or not they were the original inhabitants of Tatooine and were shoved off their land by the moisture farmers invading from other planets, or whether they and the moisture farmers had been there together all along and had never learned to co-exist peacefully.

I definitely see Lucas showing the Tusken Raiders as monsters--they shoot at podracers in TPM, brutally murder Shmi and 26 other people in AOTC, and attack Luke in ANH. I'm not sure what Lucas' purpose was exactly in showing them this way. Maybe it's not important. However--of course I don't think Anakin should have killed the children, or the women, if what Anakin said in the extended version of the garage scene was true--"The men are the aggressors among the Tuskens, not the women." He lost it completely, and he said so, and he said that he knew he was wrong. Yes, Padme excused it. I'm not sure what I would have Padme do differently--because I agree with her; he may be a Jedi, but he was also human and had just been through a horrible experience. Some sort of anger management lesson from the Jedi was in order. Note I said "anger management lesson"--a lesson being something that will cause the person to improve. Punishing Anakin in this case, when he already knows he's wrong, won't bring the women and children back, but will instead further distance him from the Jedi.

(Whew--I wrote a book. And I'm not feeling good so I hope that made sense. )

 

I don't like when people compere the Tusken's to the Native Americans. Native Americans had a reason for what they were doing. The Tusken's did not. Yes humans come to settale there bu tare then attacked by them why? They had no reason. So they humans have the right to fight back. Also read the EU books that talk about them to. watch ANH again to. They attacked Luke and he was doing nothing but looking at them. So it was ok that they did that? No it was not I call people like that mean and on caring heck they hurt there own people to. Oh and they even attack the jaws. and the humans came there to live in peace not to have to defend them self from the Natives. I bet they wanted to be came peace to beign with. So yes the framres have the right to defind them selfs.

 

Not really going to answer any posts directly just as an overall kind of outrage.
I don't know why it is considered just a minor little infraction that Anakin makes in slaughtering women and children. Oh lets see he might need some anger management counseling,,,,,,, what the heck kind of crap is that. The next time some one commits mass murder the defense attorney should use Anakin's rule. Whatever the heck it is. I for one can't find any justification for it.
I could understand one or two warriors, while your mind is consumed with grief but to take the time and effort to search out and hack to death each and every woman and child in the village is beyond my understanding. Is that your honest response. I don't give a flying frack if he is remorseful. The little enabler called Padme pats him on the head and tells him that its the human thing to do...... I was insulted. Is that all you believe we are, a thoughtless bundle of reactions. A bomb waiting to go off. I think not. If you want to make yourselves feel better for whatever reason by calling this a normal human reaction go right ahead. I think we are better than this and that we can certainly aspire to better than this.
Anakin is a criminal mass murderer, pretty it up with all the excuses you want. He hacked up a bunch of helpless children, in his own words "all of them", in anyones dictionary that makes him a mass murderer.

 

Ewanfan: Well, it looks like Anakin agrees with you--he did say, "I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this."

I don't believe in kicking a person while he's down. That's why I don't believe Padme should have given him a tongue-lashing and then walked out. What purpose would that have accomplished?

I could understand one or two warriors, while your mind is consumed with grief but to take the time and effort to search out and hack to death each and every woman and child in the village is beyond my understanding.

He didn't search them out. They were there. Several Tuskens were lunging at him with weapons--not kids, I know--the kids just happened to be there, and no, of course he shouldn't have done it. I'm not excusing his actions--he didn't excuse his actions.

And what is he supposed to do, other than show remorse? That is all we, as humans, can do. There is the expression, "Even God can't change yesterday." He can't bring the women and children back--even though he is a Jedi.

 

Another point: this month's Insider magazine describes the Tusken "blood ritual". A young Tusken male, as his rite of passage to manhood, must capture a sentient being and torture him or her to death. It looks like Shmi allowed some young Tusken buck to reach manhood. You guys are defending these monsters?

 

Please read this it might help some of you understand were I'm coming form

Yes I see your ponit but the Men and the women got what was coming to them. The Tuskens have no right or wrong they kidnap and kill for no reason. In a why Anakin was not go to show the Men and Women mreacy. Becasue the don't show other people meacry.

This comes form DragonBall Z

Goku to Freeza: I will not show you Mearcy because you do not desvrie it you kill for no reason other then to kill and for that you will die at my hands.

So in other words no matter how much meacry you show some one if they keep stabing you in the back. Well they will get whats coming to them one day. On else you want them to just keep kicking you in the ass then go ahead do nothing. Anakin killing the Men and Women I don't have a problem with that. they are gron ups the should no better. The women could have stopped the men but the did not. So they are gulit for doing nothing.

if you have a man kill someone and he a a woman partenr who can stop him but does not. Well she is gulit for doing nothing and we all no what that real means right. the childrenyes that was wrong but to say the women were all inncent to. Well thats not always ture. Women can kill to.

 

The children most certainly were hacked up by someone who had to actively seek them out. Unless you thought the 1 and 2 year olds were out there at night hunting Anakin.
Oh and yes I will defend the children, if it soothes you to label them monsters go right ahead.
No where in your post did you make a moral argument for Anakin's actions.
I am sure Anakin feeling bad is good enough for you. I on the other hand prefer my criminals behind bars or punished in some way for their crimes.
If the person I was with just informed me that he had slaughtered an entire village of sentient beings, women and children included, I would have gotten as far away as fast as I could. She had her own ship, heck she was the one going to get Obi Wan with or without Anakin. She was perfectly capable of leaving and notifying the Jedi of what had happened. That is what I would have done. Is it romantic no. Is it the morally right thing , yes I think so.

 

Ewanfan: Yes, the kids were outside. I saw them in the scene. Anakin only went into their tents to get his mother.

And why do you feel more sorry for them than you do for Shmi? Do you think the Tuskens who tortured her should be in jail? Why is Anakin getting all of your anger?

And does the Tusken "blood ritual" not bother you at all?

Again, while of course what Anakin did was wrong--let me emphasize again that he said so himself--the attitude of "Mean evil Ani killing the poor little innocent Tuskens" is lopsided.

I find it interesting that the same people who are condemning Anakin for wanting to avenge his mother's death, at the same time have an incredibly vengeful and hateful attitude towards him.

 

You know Anakins_girl is right. It's ok for them to hurt Shmi and many others. But if they do any thing to stop them. Look out the are mass muders.

I don't want to bring this up but in 1941 and just last year the US was attacked. What if we did nothing. Then what. Well we would all be dead. Thats what. We went over ther to get the people who help with 9/11. Yes some innocnt children dead. But what are we suppeds to do.

Also stop saying the women did nothing wrong. They did they did not stop the men form hurting Anakin. Women are not dumb. They are Smart and they know righ tform wrong. the children yes that is bad. But the again the women should have done something but they did not.

 

anakins_girl

: Yes, the kids were outside. I saw them in the scene. Anakin only went into their tents to get his mother.


No I didn't see women and children outside, I saw a very few people when Anakin stepped outside and they certainly appeared to be big enough. If you are assuming that the entire village was outside at night women and children included from that scene, well what can I say. I only saw it six times I could be mistaken.

And why do you feel more sorry for them than you do for Shmi? Do you think the Tuskens who tortured her should be in jail? Why is Anakin getting all of your anger?

I don't feel more sorry for them. I feel terribly for Shmi. I do feel more sorry for the children. I most certainly do think the Tusken adults should have been in jail or the Tattoine equivalant. Why is Anakin getting all of your sympathy? Why aren't you questioning your motives?

And does the Tusken "blood ritual" not bother you at all?

That is just a silly statement. If Anakin killing children appalls me of course this barbaric ritual would do the same. It still doesn't make me feel ,nor will it ever, that butchering children is just a bad judgement call.

Now you are looking to find ways to make the children culpable. Oh yes they were outside now and obviously a threat to the poor boy. One and two year olds, were the infants crawling toward him clutching miniature gaffing sticks and waving them about menacingly. This is a point you keep ignoring. You have yet to address this issue. What do you honestly feel is the proper redress in this situation.

Again, while of course what Anakin did was wrong--let me emphasize again that he said so himself--the attitude of "Mean evil Ani killing the poor little innocent Tuskens" is lopsided.

You can't even call it what it is "Butchery". I certainly do not care if Anakin "said so himself" which by the way I didn't catch in the movie. I on the other hand feel that my attitude is quite in keeping with todays mores. Balanced, as you say. Justice not vengance. You do the crime you do the time. I have never felt that the Tusken Raiders were poor little anything. They are most certainly dangerous. I on the other hand can tell the difference between children and men.

incredibly vengeful and hateful attitude towards him.

I don't think that expecting someone to pay for their crimes is vengeful. Unless things have changed dramatically in the past 30 years. There is a big difference between justice and vengence.
Counseling and anger management training is a joke for a crime of this magnitude and certainly not justice for the murder of children.

 

I want to ask something what if Obi-wan did what Anakin did. Would you want him throwen in jail or do you just hate Anakin.

 

so what about your post regarding ROTJ makes anakin not be a jedi knight prior to becoming vader?

 

I don't give a rats butt what the characters name is if someone commits a crime of the magnitude Anakin did I would want their dangerous behind in jail. If Obi Wan had done something like this I would be shocked to the core. It would ruin the entire Star Wars universe for me.

There is not much left to debate on this subject. I think I have stated my views quite clearly.

 

Ewanfan:

1) Anakin didn't say so in the movie, however, he did 1) in the original script; 2) in the DVD version; and 3) in the novel. Lucas originally wrote it in there, it was meant to be there, which is why it was put back in for the DVD version. The exact line is, "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. I'm a Jedi--I know I'm better than this."

2) I've seen the movie ten times. What I saw was, Anakin decapitated the guards outside Shmi's tent, several Tuskens came out of their tents and lunged at him with their gaffee sticks, the kids were playing nearby. I did not see him go into anyone's tent except to get his mother.

3) I never once said it was OK to kill the children. I think you may be missing that in my posts. I wish he hadn't done it--I don't know what the proper punishment for him would be, except that I think jails are for non-rehabilitable criminals only, of which Anakin was not, and that they are overused in this country.

However, I also know that the majority of the Tuskens that Anakin killed were not kids. They were the ones that either tortured his mother to death or stood by and watched without interfering.

Another point to be made: You're talking about the Tusken kids as if they were human kids, or puppies, or kittens. They're not. The Tusken boys whom Anakin killed would have grown up to torture some other poor settlers to death as part of their "blood rites". These were not exactly sweet little innocents here. This is not to say that killing them was the answer to this problem, so please don't anyone put words in my mouth. I still don't think the kids should have been killed, but someone needed to step in and reform the Tusken society--big time. The Tuskens were a very dangerous menace. Another blurb in the new Insider mentions that the Tuskens thought humans were a joke. Humans never won battles with Tuskens. Look at what happened when Cliegg, Owen, and other settlers went after Shmi. Thirty left, four came back, and Cliegg with no leg. Tuskens were always aware of human presence before humans were aware of Tusken presence due to the Tuskens' overheightened senses--at least until Anakin came along and used the Force to sneak by them, and get rid of his mother's murderers.

Again, let me emphasize that I don't think the kids should have been killed. However, the adults murdered Anakin's mother, and the adults were the majority of Anakin's victims. That is why I wish people would try to see Anakin's side, and would ask themselves, what would you do if Shmi were your mother? The Tuskens are the murderers here. They've been torturing settlers to death for quite awhile evidently.

 

anakins_girl

I said I was done with this topic. I have stated over and over what I believe. Please do not get the thread going into the direction of whether or not prisons are over used or not.
I told you how I felt,you stated how you felt. If it makes you feel better to count the numbers and tell youself that makes a difference go right ahead. If it makes you feel better to think of the Tusken children as not the same as human children and Anakin can go on being your little misunderstood boy go right on.

"I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. I'm a Jedi--I know I'm better than this."

Oh well that makes all the difference in the world. Not!

These were not exactly sweet little innocents here. This is not to say that killing them was the answer to this problem, so please don't anyone put words in my mouth.

Anakin came along and used the Force to sneak by them, and get rid of his mother's murderers.


How convenient for the settlers that Anakin took care of that little problem for them.

Again, let me emphasize that I don't think the kids should have been killed. However, the adults murdered Anakin's mother, and the adults were the majority of Anakin's victims. That is why I wish people would try to see Anakin's side, and would ask themselves, what would you do if Shmi were your mother? The Tuskens are the murderers here. They've been torturing settlers to death for quite awhile evidently.

I already stated endlessly what I think should have been done. You believe a multiple murderer should walk around free, I do not. End of my viewpoint. You want to go at it somemore simply re-read my prvious posts, all of my responses are there. We are both simply repeating ourselves and it has got to be annoying to the rest of the board.

 

Interesting view of the Tuskens as a sort of Native American tribe in the GFFA. One of my favorite subjects is history, and I think that what Europeans did to the Native Americans when they came to America is beyond reprehensible. Because my husband and I are both part Native American ourselves, I have developed an intense hatred for Andrew Jackson.

I don't blame you for hating Jackson. Film representations of Native Americans have gone through quite a few changes; it used to be that they were just all savages. But more recent films have presented them as more sympathetic characters. Lucas is quite fond of history, and judging by Star Wars, I'd say that that includes both actual history and the way it's presented on film, such as in westerns and samurai films.

One thing that telling the story in a science fiction environment does is free one from overdone real-world comparison. People accused him in Episode I of being racist, because of Jar Jar. If you had a character like that in another movie, it might legitimately be considered racist, especially if the character was a rastafarian. But Jar Jar is not black, he is not a rastafarian. He is a Gungan. The Tusken raiders certainly fill the role that Indians did in old westerns. But they are not Indians. You don't have to worry about comparisons to real races and their representations on film.

 

Ewanfan: You're right, we're both repeating ourselves. I don't think you're trying to see my viewpoint at all, but maybe you don't want to, and that's your business. But please don't put platitudes in your post like "maybe it makes you feel better to think of..." as if I don't know what I'm talking about. My view of the situation is just as valid as yours. I'm tempted to turn the tables and say "Maybe it makes you feel better to think of the Tuskens as poor little sweet innocent cuties on your average day care center playground rather than to see them for what they are--monsters who kill without reason"--but I won't. There's no point. You seem to think I'm defending Anakin because he's a relative of mine and I've got something to gain from it. Not true. I'm stating my beliefs here for the same reason you are, and like I said, they are just as valid.

 

You're talking about the Tusken kids as if they were human kids, or puppies, or kittens. They're not. The Tusken boys whom Anakin killed would have grown up to torture some other poor settlers to death as part of their "blood rites".

This is nowhere in the film, just because it's mentioned in The Insider somewhere doesn't make it fact, especially if it isn't coming from Lucas or at least McCallum's mouth. There isn't anything like that told of in the films.

What we see in the films are natives and settlers, and in fact the whole scene is set up(Anakin going off the cliff to get into the camp, the arrangement of the tents, etc) to echo the John Ford film The Searchers just to make the point a little clearer.

From the film we can make no reasonable assumptions about the truth that "blood rites" thing. And I have no doubt they aren't talking about five year old boys(notice too still, boys, men, we never see or hear of the women doing anything like that), but most likely 13 or 14 year olds, as a rite of passage, so it still doesn't even come close to excusing the killing of children as young as the one that we saw.

However, as there was a camp there, we can reasonably assume that there was more than the one woman and one child that we actually saw outside. Particularly because Anakin himself says "women and children", plural. Only one child was shown outside. One woman was shown outside and in his field of vision. They looked up in what seemed to be surprise, we do not see women and children charging at him with gaffie sticks. That means he had to take at least a little effort to kill the kids, especially seeing as little kids are likely to try and run away or hide if they can in such a situation.

Shmi died, she's one person, at most, without knowing just who did it, Anakin had the right to take one Tusken life in payment, if one is going to use the "eye for an eye" school of justice. Not a whole village and most certainly not children. I love puppies(and quite frankly if he'd killed puppies, forget it ), but these are sentient beings, those children. They are as much sentient as any other sentient species shown in the film, though more primitive. It would be the same as killing human children or gungan children or rhodian children. They are even bipedal(they say bipedalism was developed before the larger brain in us humans, and that bipedalism may have been one of the factors that acted as a catalyst in developing larger brains) just like us. They have two arms, just like us.

If Shmi was my mother, I'd hope I'd have the decency to live like someone who would make her proud and not someone who would slaughter a whole village. There is no excuse for it, none whatsoever, I don't care who did what to whom. I'd hold myself to same standards I'm holding Anakin to, I give myself no excuses for taking such an action.

 

You know Padme, Luke and two different Charaters in the EU Tales of the Jedi Vima i don't remeber the other. Went through the same thing. In fact Anakin and Ulic form Tales of the Jedi both did muc of the same thing.

Note: The people of loved them forgave them. Why becasue they were able to see the good in them. Most of you can't see the good in Anakin. You might not even be able to See the good in Ulic ether but it's there. Padme, Luke, and Vima look for that. and foud it. That is why in the end both Anakin and Ulic di eand become one with the force. I believe in GOD and and Jeues they both forgive people. Heck Jeues forgave someone who was a hooker and a murder. So why can't you people look past what Anakin did. Because you think you are his judges. Well your not. In Star Wars. Who ever is God there is Anakin's and Ulic's judge and He seems to see the good in the to that is why they both become on ewith the Force.

 

naw ibo: I always enjoy your posts, even though you and I are usually in disagreement.

I have to argue with you on one point in your last one, though--I consider anything out of the Insider canon. We're not talking about fan fiction stories here. The magazine is copyrighted by Lucasfilm. The article on the Tusken Raiders was under the heading "Inside Attack of the Clones". It wasn't meant to be a story--it was meant to be an inside look at what was going on in the film. And it gave me a new perspective on the Tuskens--confirming what I already suspected, which was that they attack and kill human settlers for no reason.

And no, I don't think it's OK that Anakin killed the children; but I wish some people would try to see the scene from all angles--in other words, look at what happened to Shmi, also.

 

Who said Anakin can't be forgive? Well some have, but I haven't and I don't think most people have. Forgiven does not mean unpunished though. It certainly doesn't mean "Oh you're human"(actually what Anakin does isn't "human", except in it's most animalistic way, what supposedly seperates "humans" from "lower animals" is the fact that we can control ourselves from doing things like that, we are more than instinct, if we don't then we are subjegating our better natures and completely succumbing to our basest instincts). I liked the theatre release version better, it didn't make Padme such an enabler, simply a sympathetic ear. I wouldn't actually expect Padme to do anything different from what she does at that point, why shouldn't she give him a shoulder to cry on? I have no problem with that.

However after that, it's like she goes into some kind of weird denial--she's all cute and flirty trying to get him to go Geonosis with her. Someone who has just slaughtered a village does not need someone encouraging them to go into what could be another slaughter.

If anything, if she was thinking at all clearly, she would have been happy that Mace gave the excuse for not going, captured master or not(or perhaps most especially because of the captured master), Anakin did not need to be anywhere near possible death and violence right then.

Now as for The Insider :

The Insider also uses EU material and I'm pretty sure that stuff about Tusken blood rites and all is past EU material. EU has the Lucas imprint on it as well but that doesn't mean it is to be taken as fact in the films. I don't believe it was in the novelization. Something like that, which seems important, certainly seems like it would have been in there.