Did Obi-Wan have the right to defy Anakin in front of Padme?

Did you even read the part about Tales of the Jeds. I hope you did. In fact Read all of Tales of the Jedi. except the Freedon nadd upriseing. It will show just how much alike Ulic and Anakin. are both become Sith both come back form the Dark Side.

 

...if we don't then we are subjegating our better natures and completely succumbing to our basest instincts

One thing I have in common with Anakin--I have a horrible temper. I don't know how to control it, and I'm a lot older than he was in AOTC. (I wish I had money for every time I've had to apologize for something I've said just on these boards.) I've never killed anyone, but I've also never found my mother tied to a pole and tortured. I can't honestly say that I wouldn't "succumb to my basest instinct" in that situation. I hope that I wouldn't, but I can't say; therefore, even if Anakin weren't my favorite character, I would have a hard time judging him. His actions weren't right, but I understand.

And I think most people who don't like Anakin, like the theater release of the confession scene better. I think the DVD release is going to be an improvement though--I think Anakin's regret for what he did needs to be thoroughly shown and not just hinted at. And I don't see Padme as an "enabler". She knew Shmi as the quiet, gentle woman who had given her shelter ten years earlier, and she knew that she had been brutally murdered by these creatures. I'm sure she didn't think that what Anakin did was right, but she was able to put that aside long enough to accept his confession and expression of regret.

 

Nope my view of the DVD version is purely based upon Padme's line, it doesn't change my view of Anakin in the slightest.

But to me, putting in the "you're human" line, makes Padme seem enabling, as opposed to simply being the sympathetic ear she was before. I was glad when Lucas left those lines out of the theatre release because I was glad that Padme wasn't shown to be that much of one, one could simply look at it and say "Well, what was she going to do?", there really isn't anything wrong with giving someone, whoever it is, a shoulder to cry on.

But that "You're human" line, it's like "What does that have to do with it?". As a human being, he shouldn't have done what he did, never mind as a Jedi. It's almost like she's looking for excuses for him.

 

More like that line meant, things happen and sometimes they are uncontrollable. That you're fallable.

But he an aspirant Jedi...he should at least try to be better than that. Harder than he is, at least.

Ciou-See the Sig

 

Someone else posted:
"If Shmi was my mother, I'd hope I'd have the decency to live like someone who would make her proud and not someone who would slaughter a whole village. There is no excuse for it, none whatsoever, I don't care who did what to whom. I'd hold myself to same standards I'm holding Anakin to, I give myself no excuses for taking such an action."

I have an excuse.....THIS IS THE BOY THAT IS GOING TO BE DARTH VADER!!! OF COURSE HE IS GONNA HAVE TO KILL SOME PEOPLE, EVEN SOME INNOCENTS!!!

Anakin killed them....get over it...if you dont like it, the don't watch it. I for one think it was necessary in the context of the series, and the scenes played out very nicely....I have a friend who hasn't seen AOTC yet because he's been in prison (for a non-violent offense) and he will be out in a couple weeks.....and as a Star Wars fan, I for one can't wait for his reaction (as a Star Wars fan) to the Tusken slaughter scene....good thing I'm getting my DVD on November 1st.

I've said my peace...
OUT

--Darth

 

This is the first time ive replied, so please forgive if i appear to have missed anything, but if you remember the way Obi Wan behaved to his Master then I think we can assume that this sets the etiquette standard for the Master/Padawan relationship. Anakin has obviously defied Obi Wan before and this debuke is just Obi Wan's way of putting him in his place. Yes, I tend to agree that Obi Wan is aware of Anakin's feelings for Padme and this knowledge only adds to my belief that it was a sign that Obi Wan did not approve of his Padawan's behaviour and is using this knowledge to embarrass him into realising his place..

And b4 you say it, yes I am a Obi Wan fan but i believe i am objective enough to see both good and bad

 

One thing to consider about the whole Tusken Slaughter. The Republic doesn't exist out there, thus they cannot lock him up. And Anakin recieved his punishment when he was nearly killed. But he redeemed himself by killing Palpatine and restarting the Jedi Order, by saving his son. Who is a Jedi.

 

You said it, darth-sinister.

I actually think having to get your skin burned off by lava and live in a full-body black iron lung suit for twenty years, and having bow down to some old wrinkly ugly dude and call him "Master", is pretty intense punishment for one's crimes.

 

Too bad that he keeps committing those crimes for another 22 years.

 

Ok I'm done with this dumb theraed if you don't like Anakin ok I. I just think it's sad that must of you can't see that Padme is someone who looks for the good in people just like Luke and not the bad. I also think it's sad that you all think that it's Vader who is the wrost bad guy in SW. Which is not ture that would be Palpatine. Who turned Anakin over to the dark side by liying to him and telling him things that were not ture. It is also sad to know that most of you have become his jugde and think that he has no haret which he does. If he did not he would not have saved Luke his son. So if you wish to keep saying these things about him go head. But I now he is not the ture evil of SW. Palpainte is.

 

Wow. I can't speak for everyone else in this thread, but that is really off the mark from what I've been saying. I never said Vader was the most evil character; I agree it is Palpatine. However, Vader chose to serve him, and my argument has been that it was not because Obi-Wan didn't train him right; in fact I've yet to see what if anything Obi-Wan did wrong.

 

But he hia made mistakes. Obi-wan even knows he has and Palpaitne leid to Anakin. Leid that is way Anakin joind him. that is why so many people join him. becasue he leid to all of them. If Anakin by the tiem Anakin knew what he was real like. Well it was to late. Palpatine did not give a rats ass about Anakin. He would have killed him if luke joined and again if you don't see that Obi-wan has made mistakes while then you have not real watched the movie. Obi-wan should have let Anakin go see his mother. Gasp then he would have maybe been able to save her. He also should never have told Anakn that deamers pass in time. In other words Obi-wan was never read to take on a Anakin a his padawan much less be a Master. One fainl thing before I stop post here is that Palpaitne lied lied lied to Anakin. Like he has lied to ever one in the PT and OT. If you still don't get that get fane I'm done trying to get people to not read to much in to the story and just see it for what it real is. a story about how Anakin a good man falls to the dark side but comes back and kills the master of the dark side. That Padme real does love Anakin and that Anakin loves her and that Obi-wan is not perfect.

 

Why do you say Obi-Wan should have let Anakin go see his mother? First off I didn't see Anakin asking to go see his mother, second I never saw Obi-Wan refusing to allow him to go. While we can certainly assume he wouldn't have been allowed, the point is we can't assume he asked and that Obi-Wan refused. Or that the Jedi refused either for that matter. It is entirely possible that Anakin never asked to go see her.

Obi-Wan was not brushing Anakin off when he said "Dreams pass in time", he was simply offering advice probably from his own experience with dreams. Just remember the only reason they were even having that conversation is because Obi-Wan started it, because he was concerned and he wanted Anakin to talk to him about what was troubling him. He was trying to offer him comfort about troubling dreams(of which he doesn't know any details from what we know) and Anakin doesn't present them as being anything other than dreams.

And the thing, you are wrong about Palpatine, Palpatine isn't really lying to Anakin right now(which is exactly one of the things which makes Palpatine so evil). He's simply feeding Anakin's ego. Only Anakin can allow him to do that. Palpatine is simply telling Anakin what he wants to hear, but he isn't actually lying to him. Once he has Anakin more surely in his clutches he may start lying to him, but as of now his influence is based not based on actual lies.

 

I'm not saying any thing else good bye.

 

Anybody who thinks Obi-Wan lied to Luke in ANH please read this:

From Vortigern99's thread in the Classic Trilogy forum titled "The Annotated Screenplays" post by Binary_Sunset:

Vortigern, you have done an outstanding job of proving your thesis. I agree with you 100% that GL didn't conceive of Vader being Luke's father until sometime after May 1977.

Here's a few more pieces of evidence:

1. It is an uncontested fact that, before May 25, 1977, Lucas thought that SW would either A) make no money or B) be modestly successful so that a single, low-budget sequel to it could be made. Just in case "B" happened, he commissioned Alan Dean Foster to write a novel that a "Star Wars II" movie could be based upon. This novel (finished before May 1977) was later published under the title Splinter of the Mind's Eye. IMPORTANT: Neither SW nor SotME even hints at Vader being Luke's father. And remember, AT MOST, Lucas originally planned for only one sequel to SW. There wasn't ever going to be a PT, or even a SWIII. Lucas obviously didn't even have a clear idea where he would go with his hypothetical low-budget sequel, or he wouldn't have hired ADF to write a story he could base his sequel on.

2. Alan Dean Foster wrote the novelization to the original SW movie. Here's an excerpt:

"How," he asked slowly, "did my father die?"

Kenobi hesitated, and luke sensed that the old man had no wish to talk about this particular matter. Unlike Own Lars, however, KENOBI WAS UNABLE TO TAKE REFUGE IN A COMFORTABLE LIE.

"He was betrayed and murdered," Kenobi declared solemnly, "by a very young Jedi named Darth Vader." (emphasis mine)

Also, note the following exchange between T'bone and Alan Dean Foster (from an interview on July 3, 2001):

T: When you turned in your novel [based on the SW film], were there any changes you were asked to make and did you disagree with any of them?
ADF: None. George approved it as written. He did request a couple of changes to SPLINTER OF THE MIND'S EYE.

T: Can you give me a few examples?
ADF: The main change involved the opening of the book. I had started out with an elaborate space battle. This was what forced Luke down on Mimban. Bearing in mind his intention to keep open the option of filming SPLINTER on a low budget, George asked me to delete the sequence, which I did...As to other changes, they were all minor, and few, and I can't recall them. (emphasis mine)

George APPROVED a novel that explicitly said that Kenobi wasn't lying to Luke about his father. Q.E.D.

Here' s the link to the ADF interview


Sorry, the link didn't come with the copy.

Lady S.

 

That doesn't make any difference anymore because when Lucas made Anakin and Darth Vader the same person in ESB, Obi-wan officially became a liar.

 

(nothing to say but this.)

 

If it was a lie on Obi-Wan's part then it was surely one that was known to Yoda, too. Think back on his deathbed remarks when he was surprised that Vader had told the truth to Luke. If someone's been telling fibs, it's not just Ben that's in on the secret, suggesting that Yoda approved. I'm not excusing Obi-Wan as such, although I personally believe he didn't look on his "point of view" as anything other than the truth as he saw it, therefor not dishonest as such...but that's another matter. All I'm saying is, if you're going to start pointing fingers and throwing mud at people, how about flinging some the way of our most beloved and wise green troll, and not just at Obi-Wan?

That's kind off strayed of the topic a little. An equally relevant question would be what Anakin's motives were in defying Obi-Wan...

 

Guys,

You still don't get it. Obi-Wan DIDN'T lie to Luke in ANH, Obi-Wan was only saying the lines he was given to say by George Lucas!

Yoda didn't lie, either, for the same reason as above. This is what happens when an author changes the storyline so drastically.

Read my entire post. Better yet, go to the Classic Trilogy thread and read it. Maybe you'll learn something.

EDIT: That whole "from a certain point of view" speech Obi-Wan gave Luke in ROTJ was Lucas' lame attempt to fill in the massive plot hole he created in ESB by making DV Luke's father.

Lady S.

 

Lady S, I'm not about to pick a fight with a fellow Obi-Wan supporter, of which, alas, there seem to be remarkably few these days...but whilst I agree that "the lie" was hardly what Lucas had in mind for Obi-Wan to start with, the end result is sadly very different indeed.

I think we have to look at what's on the screen as opposed to what didn't make it in. That just leaves those who believe Obi-Wan told a massive fib in order to get Luke to chop his father into tiny bits and dance on his cape, or those who think the "certain point of view" was actually a pretty neat way of looking at things, of which I personally ascribe to the latter. I mean, Obi-Wan was technically correct...

"Obi-Wan Kenobi...I haven't gone by that name, oh...before you were born."

"I don't think he exists anymore...he died about the same time as your father."

"I admit that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father."
"That name no longer has any meaning for me."

Obi-Wan Kenobi is viewed as dead, Anakin Skywalker is viewed as dead, their old identities gone. There is only Ben and Vader, until Luke comes along. Vader views "Anakin Skywalker" as dead! Even Owen Lars agrees, judging by his choice of words to Luke. I'll be surprised if there's no mention of this aspect in Episode 3. Maybe then it'll make Ben's P.O.V less disagreeable to the Anakin fans, who stick up for their beloved with a zeal and affection that does them much credit. *waves flag of truce*

That said, I know what you are trying to say. I guess it makes good evidence that at least to start with Lucas had a different idea for Obi-Wan.

 

jemmiah,

Waves flag of truce herself. I'm sorry, I wasn't including you in my previous post 'to the guys.' I get very frustrated with those newer fans who have no idea how much of this story has changed over the years (which is his right, of course) and who take everything they see in the movies at face value.

It makes it rough for those of us who defend Obi-Wan and if you've seen some of the other threads, you'll know what I mean.

I'm just trying to get the background of the story out there so the fans can be more aware and not make dumb comments.

I, too, hope GL clarifies things in Ep. III, but somehow, sadly, I don't think he will.

Lady S.

 

Just to let you now. I have liked SW sense will sense I was 6 or 7. But to me Splinter of the minds eye has become EU and like most EU can not be used in the moives and has no bases for the moive it is just there to fill in the void that was left by EP 4-6.

 

No worries, Lady S. I agree, there seems to be a dearth (not darth) of Anti-Obi feeling arround. Not too many of us take the middle, subjective ground anymore. I include myself in that category now, for as much as I admit to not particularly liking Anakin, I was more than willing to support the Ani fans because they felt so protective towards their hero. However, it's got so bad now that I find myself gritting my teeth when people won't allow me to stick up for Obi-Wan the same way others do Anakin, and it's actually shifted me from the middle ground to a complete Obi-Wan bias!

To get back on topic, I agree with whoever said Palpatine was the chief culprit. He's been feeding Ani's resentment and sowing the seeds of malcontent within Anakin's soul. Who can say what Anakin might have turned out like without this interference? But Obi-Wan's been quite clearly bashing his head against a brick wall, as I've said before. Small wonder if he feels Anakin won't listen to him: Skywalker probably feels he doesn't need to. Anakin and Obi-Wan are both victims of Palpatine's treachery...yes, BOTH!

Don't you just love Palpatine!

 

jemmiah,

Oh, yeah, ya gotta just love Palpy! Devil face would go here, but I left my cheat sheet of face symbols at home!

ani,

No, "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" is not EU, it was totally approved by GL. I just used it to show that originally, GL did not have Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker as the same person and to demonstrate that when ANH was filmed, Obi-Wan was not lying because GL had not yet decided that Darth was Anakin and thus was Luke's father. Is it clear now?

Lady S.

 

yes but sense then it has become EU. Only because of the crystrel thing it had. Which i don't really buy into. Also me I don't hate Obi-wan it is just he is not perfect. Just like Yoda is not perfect they even said they made mistakes.