Did obi-wan think?

Sending luke after vader and the emperor on the death star WAS an act of desperation. I agree completly.

That was there only choice.

As far as obi-wan and yoda going after the emepror for you to say there would be thousands of troopers guarding him is pure assumption and speculation on your part.

If the emperor was going to be guarded by that many troopers why was he not guraded when yoda first went and confornted him? order 66 was already under way.....what if some jedi escaped it like yoda did and returned? Why was the emperor not guarded then?

and yoda and obi-wan had no idea how many ppl would be guarding the emperor. What did they do say "oh no he will be guarded by too many people we better not go and try and save the galaxy and the remaining jedi" lol

are you serious?

 

What it all comes down to is this.

Yoda and Obi-wan agree they must each go after a sith to prevent the republic from being taken over and evil to take over the galaxy.

This is what went down. Obi-wan WINS his battle. Yoda pretty much ties the emperor.

Now when yoda and obi-wan meet up afterwards.

Obi-wan-"YES I beat anakin.

Yoda-"I tied palpatine but he escaped"


So instead of them saying "ok lets go finish the job two on one. Together we will beat him"


THEY SAY "NO lets hide for 18 yrs and let the empire grow and let freedom be removed from the galaxy.

For ANYONE to argue against this is a purly BIAS, illogical fan who just refuses to say or accept any negative about star wars. Thats FACT pure and SIMPLE.

 

As it is for you to say that there were only a few dozens.

For the umpteenth time, because the stormtroopers were after the Jedi and Bail Organa helped Yoda to get into the senate building.

Palpatine ordered the clones to search for Yoda, which means he was prepared in case Yoda came back - by contrast, he didn't expect Yoda when he came for the first time, he assumed that he had died along with the other Jedi.

"YODA: Hurry. Careful timing we will need.

BAIL ORGANA: (in speeder) There aren't many troops on this side. Activate your homing beacon when you're ready."

"There aren't many troops on this side". "Troops", not a handful of troopers. Yoda was lucky to get out, and he knew better than to come back.

yes, I'm serious. I'm also serious saying that you're the first poster in a very long time here who's finally made it onto my notional ignore list, since by now you've proven to me beyond any doubt that it is impossible to have a mature discussion with you. You obviously can't accept that people can have a legitimate different opinion, you keep making things personal, be it by directly insulting anyone who doesn't agree with you or by ridiculing any differing POV.

 

I agree entirely with latverian33, it just doesn't make sense at all. Then again, Lucas seemed more occupied with special effects for the PT than story and logic, so it kind of does make sense. A good and complete script is the foundation of any film. He had all these years after Return Of The Jedi to perfect the scripts and he didn't take advantage of that at all imo.

I'm sorry mods, you can edit this message if you like, it isn't my intention to derail the thread !

 

I am not being rude or insulting towards anyone.

I said it is illogical and bias for anyone to dispute that it would have made much more sense and save countless lives for obi-wan and yoda to go after and destroy the emperor together instead of waiting 18 yrs and letting evil consume the universe.


I did not call you or anyone else names.

yes you are right..I assume there were only a few dozen maybe even a hundred troops gurading the emperor...you say thousands...for all we know it was one or two. All we can do is speculate.

BUT what was yoda and obi-wan to do? Just assume he is guraded by 1000's of troopers and just say I give up. lets go hide and let the remaining jedi be hunt down...lets go hide and let the republic be detroyed. Lets go hide and elt evil and the opression of the sith return.

Instead of going after the emperor 2 on 1.

If that doesnt make sense to you then I don't know what to tell you.

But I did not insult you or call you names.

I have assured the admins here I would not do that and as far as I can see I have not.

 

Let's see, Latv, you said...


For ANYONE to argue against this is a purly BIAS, illogical fan who just refuses to say or accept any negative about star wars.

So you're not calling the people who are arguing against you a bias, illogical fan? Sorry, but we mods aren't buying your "I didn't insult anyone" line. Rest assured, a long ban awaits the next such offense.

 

Latverian, this thread -- which you created -- is not about whether it is illogical or nonsensical or poor writing for Kenobi and Yoda to decide not to double-team the Emperor after they had failed to achieve their respective missions. It is about whether Kenobi believed Anakin to be dead when he left Mustafar. That's it. You've had warning after warning about this. One more slip and you're banned.

 

I think (see above) that, when he left Mustaffar, Obi-Wan only knew that he had not actually killed Vader. Yoda did expect him to kill Anakin, but Yoda wasn't there, and left the matter in Obi-Wan's capable hands.

The reason I see for the decision Obi-Wan made (and describe above) touches on a point regarding the Jedi that I think is misunderstood or easily overlooked by fans who have not made a study of the RL philosophies reflected in the code of the Jedi order. This is the same reason Yoda and Obi-Wan take a passive position in seclusion to await developments, and it is rather non-Western, as is a lot of the inspiration for the Jedi order and its teachings.

Yoda and Obi-Wan attempted to confront Sidious and Vader, right at the start, once, to see if matters could be concluded quickly. By failing, they confirmed that the long, slow path to balance would be necessary, and decided to wait and watch for a sign (they are mystics - and their portents are real) that it was an auspicious time to act. Episode IV shows how Obi-Wan determined it was time - when a message from Leia arrived at his home with Luke, begging his aid.

There is no irrationality here. The plot makes perfect sense to anyone who understands that the Jedi are essentially Taoists, who prefer not to act unecessarily.

 

So by being Taoist they thought it wise to let millions be killed and enslaved under the evil empire and allow the sith to return and grow even stronger when both yoda and obi wan were both healthy and capable of preventing it?

To quote obi-wan in revenge of the sith "too much is at stake"


IT'S NOT like obi-wan and yoda got their azz's handed to them. Obi-wan won and yoda tied.

Leias message made obi-wan think the time was ripe to rid the galaxy of the empire? Take an untrained jedi to do it?

Taoist or not Taoist it makes no sense. Especially considering there were other jedi knights still in the galaxy they could have recruited.

It serves no purpose to wait. NONE what so ever. The only thing waiting does is allow the death star to be made and for the emperor to grow stronger and vader grow stronger and for the star systems to fall under the control of the empire.

 

I think that Obi-Wan thought that Anakin was either going to die, or live a miserable crippled, half-dead existence. Either way, I don?t think that Obi-Wan thought he would ever see him again.

I actually have asked the same questions, and been frustrated about, the same things that Latverian is hammering home. I was (and still am) extremely upset that Yoda scuttles out of the Sidious fight on his hands and knees through a maintenance shaft. From any perspective, after Obi-Wan takes out Anakin, an all out assault on the Emperor makes complete sense.

Also, I often contemplated what Obi-Won and Yoda were thinking when they decided to send Luke to take out Vader and The Emperor. After re-evaluating the saga, the answer does become fairly obvious. Luke was in fact being sent in to turn Vader away from the Dark Side. His job was to reach out to Anakin. After rewatching the OT, it starts to feel like Luke knew that he could not (and would not) defeat his father and the Emperor in physical combat. Anakin?s connection to his family, and the extremes he goes to for them, was something the Jedi were well aware of and it was their best tactic against the Emperor. (I love the explanation that XYZ-2112 gave in regard to the Emperor not being able to detect Vader?s love of family and how the Jedi are using it to defeat him.)

The thing about the Star Wars Saga, is that there are HUGE sections of missing information. Very little is explained in depth, and it is simply left up to the viewer to fill in the blanks. The Lucas commentary on ANH confirms that this is done on purpose. This is great because it allows for speculation about what happens in-between the films. The whole ?Clone Wars? is a perfect example of this.

There is a great amount of storytelling that can happen between Episodes III and IV. The formation of the Rebellion, the growth of the Empire, the discovery that Vader is alive, seven feet tall, and half mechanical, and the fate of any of the last remaining Jedi, are all stories waiting to be told. I like to speculate that Yoda manned up, collected Obi-Won (plus any other Jedi) and went off to finish what they started. How and why their attempt failed is up to you to figure out.

 

Yoda and obi-wan send luke because they see him as the last hope are destroying the empire.

The jedi are all extinct and the Sith are in control. Only a jedi can do the job.

[EDIT]

 

Right.

Try reading the point I actually made, and then mediate on the following concept: The will of the Force.

I'm done in this thread. [EDIT]

 

I fear I'm going to prolong the agony here, but I can't help but have a go anyway.

I don't think you say, Obi-wan beat Vader so gets 2 points, Yoda and Palpatine tied so they get a point each, Obi-wan's 2 and Yoda's 1 beat Palpatine's 1. Previous battles suggest it's not as simple as that. Every time Obi-Wan came against a Sith (and you can hardly say Vader's a true Sith at the end of ROTS, he's only been in the job 5 hours) he get's his ass whupped, fighting with a partner or not.

The point is that the Jedi conclude the Emperor can not be beaten in battle. Why this is, we'll never know, but Yoda clearly sees something that makes him realise a different approach is needed. Just getting on the blower to get Obi-Wan to tag-team him is not going to change that.

 

I don't think Obi-Wan believed Anakin would survive Mustafar's burning. But he did leave a perfectly fine Anakin laying with just 1 limb at the end of their fight - without any intention to kill him. Obi-Wan couldn't kill Anakin, he'd said as much and so he was just living up to his honest opinion of himself. The burning was unexpected, but Obi-Wan likely felt it was the will of the force and he had to leave Anakin to burn to death because although he couldn't do it himself, the force was doing it for him - as long as he didn't rescue him. I believe that when Obi-Wan later found out Anakin was still alive as Vader, a part of him was of course devastated that Anakin-the-Sith-Lord-Vader had survived and what that meant to the galaxy, but another part of him gurgled with relief that he'd not killed Anakin himself - that would have burned him on top of feeling guilt from having 'failed Anakin'. But over time, he'd come to feel he wished he had of killed him for certain - during same time Vader was building the same wish against Obi-Wan. I am not really sure why Obi-Wan allowed Vader to kill him in the end - all I can think is that he still felt a deep sense of guilt for his "failing Anakin" and the events of Mustafar deep inside. You would think he'd go down trying to kill him. The fact that he did not allow Vader to kill him unarmed only made the situation a little more convoluted. It made me think he was trying to salvage Vaders killing of him from a Jedi standpoint - very odd. Anyway, they had lots to talk about as force ghosts.

 

^ ^ The above posts are excellent.

xx_AnakinXX, I think that on the DS Obi-Wan knew he could not defeat Vader (can you imagine ANH Kenobi defeating ESB Vader?; the Sith was toying with the old man), so he opted for the honorable, compassionate death, which of course made him "more powerful than [Vader] can possibly imagine".

 

Good point...now I am thinking that there was a lesson somewhere in there for the Anakin buried inside of Vader. Not that Obi-Wan would purposely have been attempting to teach it, but doing so on a subconscious level without really realizing it himself. Vader declared he was the master and Obi-Wan told him he was merely a master of evil. Then Obi-Wan said he would become more powerful as a Jedi than Vader could imagine, and that would speak directly to the power that would have been available to Anakin if he'd of remained a Jedi. That would certainly get Vader's attention, perhaps even on a level that would involve the spark of the Jedi inside of him - it could leave him wondering if the dark power he was pursuing was the greatest after all. Anyway, it was just a divergent thought inspired by your post. I've probably gone off the deep end! .

 

That's partially accurate. Old Ben could have killed Vader. What I mean is, if he chose to take that path, it was a viable possibility. Instead Ben does not to take the bait and allow himself to become aggressive. He chooses only to defend himself and share knowledge. Count Dooku and Palpatine were old men and fought just as well if not better than the youthful Jedi of their day. Even Yoda, a venerable Jedi in terms of age fights perhaps the best of all, and yet when he is not fighting, uses a cane or a Star Wars version of a wheelchair to do a common thing like walking around. The force users do not fight with their body's strength and agility. They tap into the force and it guides their actions. In the duel in Episode 4, what Vader says is merely a tool to piss Ben off so that he will lose focus and become angry, but the wise Jedi knows better.

"When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the Master!" Vader
"Only a master of evil, Darth." Ben

And that's an excellent point. Ben did this on purpose to not only show Vader the true power of the force but also to show Luke the true way of the Jedi; passive and at peace.

 

in order to ever truly understand star wars you have to read the EU. you cant just go by the movies, they leave too much up for discussion and debate.

Here is what really happened. Obi-wan thought he left Vader for dead when he left mustafar. So time later at an imperial invasion of Kashyyyk, designed to kill some Jedi believed to be hiding out there with the help of the wookies, it is reported that Darth Vader was leading the forces. At hearing this Obi-wan was very troubled.

In the movies they said they were hiding the twins from the emperor. After Obi-wan discovers that Vader is alive he also must hide the twins from Vader as well.

Point is Obi-wan thought Vader was dead, and they were initially on hiding the twins from the emperor.

 

Actually, ROTJ said that the twins were hidden from Luke's father.

 

in order to ever truly understand star wars you have to read the EU. you cant just go by the movies, they leave too much up for discussion and debate.

mrarnold40, I apologize if I seem harsh, but you must not make statements like these. You are free to offer up your readings from the EU as possible explanations, and to try and convince us why you believe them to be valid, but as fans we are all free to pick and choose what we like from the EU, in order to formulate our own personal experience of the STAR WARS Saga. It is certainly helpful that we have the official site, wookieepedia and the body of EU literature to help us elucidate certain questions, but there is no compulsion for any fan to accept any interpretation that does not derive from their own imagination or understanding.

 

i didnt it mean it to sound as if you HAD to read the books or play the games or anything like that. but if you are gonna have a legitame conversation on star wars and you make a statement that is based on the movies, then it is probably covered more so in the EU. For example based on the movies ppl are led to believe things like Luke was weak, or yoda was the strongest jedi of all time or something like that. or that leia has the same raw force power potential as anakin or luke.

things like that or cleary shown to not be true in the EU

 

Again, mrarnold40, you can believe as you like, and are free to accept every single EU event, character, thought or piece of backstory from every novelization, dimestore paper back, monthly issue of Star Wars Tales, Random House Story Book or Jar-Jar coloring book you prefer. It's up to you and it's up to everyone here. But despite your assertions to the contrary, we can indeed have a "legitimate debate" about some point of contention without having read or accepting as valid the EU explanation.

I myself have read a good handful of EU literature -- loved some of it, detest some of it, and some of it's just mediocre. But you see, since the films don't contradict the opinion that, for example, "Yoda was the strongest Jedi of all time", going just from the movies I have the right to believe that and to express that belief in a post, without fear of someone trying to shut me down or shut me up. The movies don't say it for a fact, but they don't deny it either, so it's up for grabs. Maybe he was; maybe not. It's debatable.

Otherwise the reason for these boards vanishes, if we just have a convenient EU answer to go by, perhaps concocted by some hired hand, who may not be as smart or creative or in tune with Lucas' vision as I would like him/her to be, and so whose entire ouevre of STAR WARS EU literature I utterly dismiss. Some EU stuff is very, very good -- I especially like the Courtship of Princess Leia and Han Solo at Star's End -- but some of it, well, isn't so good. It's up to me whether I want to accept these non-movie events as belonging in my own STAR WARS milieu.

I apologize to everyone for derailing this thread. mrarnold40, if you'd like to continue this conversation, please PM me.

Otherwise let's keep discussing Kenobi's awareness of Anakin's survival, and when it occurred and under what circumstances. EU answers are "one possible explanation".

 

About Obi-Wans actions on Mustafar,

It does not make very much sense just to leave Anakin like that.

Obi-Wan had very clear orders to kill Anakin and while he was reluctant to accept it, what he saw on Mustafar, Anakin choking Padme and other things, made him conclude that Anakin was indeed lost. So when he had him down and defeated why not finish the job?

Given his wounds and the hostile enviroment Anakin will die unless he gets help. The odds of him getting help are not high but why would Obi-Wan risk it? Then there is the compassion/jedi rules issue. Some have argued that killing a defencless opponent is wrong by jedi standards.
But Obi-Wan had just cut off Anakins legs and one arm and left him in a hostile enviroment, if Anakin had died it would be as a direct result of what Obi-Wan did. So Obi-Wan would have killed Anakin, his blood would be on his hands. So why leave Anakin to suffer horribly before dying? This does not sound very jedi to me, they would avoid violence when possible and only fight if they had to but if killing was the only solution then a quick kill would be preferable to a slow, horrible death.

So Obi-Wan both ignores his orders and lets a dangerous enemy live and he also shows a great deal of cruelty by letting Anakin suffer like that. Obi-Wan cared about Anakin, perhaps he still does, but why let him suffer for hours before dying? I would imagine that it would weigh less on Obi-Wans mind that he showed mercy and put Anakin out of his misery rather than the thought that he let Anakin suffer terribly before dying.

The about what Yoda and Obi-Wan had in mind for Luke.
I doubt that either Yoda or Obi-Wan thought that Vader could ever be redeemed, Obi-Wan is very clear that Vader is all evil and has to be killed, Yoda is less clear but he does pretty much say that turning to the dark side is a one-way ticket. It is possible that all that was just an act for Luke's benefit but for me I think it makes Luke into a better character if he was the only one that felt the good in Vader and that he was the only one that thought he could be redeemed. If Yoda and Obi-Wan had secretly been planing that very thing and only tried to keep Luke in the dark about it is less good in my mind.

Also they did not send really Luke against Vader and Palpatine in the DS2. They only said that Luke must confront Vader, Obi-Wan pretty much says he has to kill him as well. Luke had no plan to go after Vader when he went to Endor, much less the emperor, but Vader came down to Endor and Luke felt he had no choice but to go to him. Then it was Vader that brought him to Palpatine. If Luke had stayed with the rebel fleet and not gone to Endor then things would have been very different.
What Yoda and Obi-Wan did have in mind for the emperor is not very clear, perhaps they wanted Luke to confront and kill Vader and then once that was done he could try to take on the emperor. How? Well with his apprentice gone, Palpatine would have to go look for a new sith and thus he would be less guarded and easier to attack.

Regards
Nordom

 

Obi-Wan told Yoda he could't do it and he was right. I do understand that the notion of suffering to death was horrible and totally how could he???? But at the same time, actually stabbing Anakin through the heart just wasn't within Obi-Wan's capacity (at that point he was still Anakin for Obi-Wan). But Obi-Wan paid for leaving him to suffer both for what Vader went on to become, and also, for leaving him to suffer - he probably dreamed about the burning Anakin for years - even after discovering he was still alive.

 

I can agree that it doesn't make logical sense for Kenobi to leave Anakin suffering, but this is an emotional, human issue, not one of cold logic and reason. As xx_Anakin_xx points out above, Kenobi expressed to Yoda that he could not kill Anakin; "he's like my brother". This coupled with the fact that Anakin appears to have no chance of survival on the edge of the river of lava, and would have died but for the unexpected intervention of the Emperor, is a compelling context for Kenobi to avoid delivering the killing blow.