Did obi-wan think?

But having no problem with cutting of someones arms and legs and leaving them to burn to death but not being able to put someone out of their misery?
It does not add up logically or emotionally. I would imagine a person would feel worse knowing he or she wounded someone horribly and then left them to a slow, terrible death as opposed to sparing them hours of agony. Obi-Wan can not avoid blame for Anakins death, if he had died, so sayin he could not kill Anakin does not wash. By doing what he did, he pretty much did kill Anakin. So he would know that Anakin laying there and burning to death is his doing so if he still cares for Anakin then it would be better to end his suffering. The only reason I can think of is that Obi-Wan wanted Anakin to suffer horribly and was feeling very hatefull, "ha, take that you *****, yeah burn in **** you ****". But that does not match well with Obi-Wan.

Regards
Nordom

 

Well, of course Kenobi isn't thinking that at all. I repeat that Kenobi's failure to act is an irrational decision by its very nature, and defies all attempts to explain it except that it is pity which stays his hand -- illogical, unreasoning pity.

 

I'm with you Vortigern. The whole battle between them was likely totally irrational and somewhat surreal while they were fighting. "Am I really trying to kill you? Oh yeah, I am!" I mean how many times did we ever see Anakin restrain himself from jumping into a battle? Pretty much never, but he did with Obi-Wan. How reasonable was it for the "Negotiator" Obi-Wan to give up trying to save Anakin after 5 short sentences made up of mainly accusations? None, but he did it with Anakin. The whole thing was a perfect example of an emotional battle - at too many points to write about. But the "let's stop and chat here while floating down the lava" should have clued everyone in. I don't think Obi-Wan planned to take off Anakin's limbs, he just gave himself over to the Force (based on his skill) and that was the result. Obi-Wan remained an emotional wreck after that as we saw...his heated heartfelt words, picking up Anakin's lightsaber (which he needed for the OT, but worked perfectly to show his emotions at the time as well) and his reaction to Anakin catching fire. Anakin's hopelessness turned grim hatred - the whole thing was a fiasco of a battle, not your average Sith v. Jedi duel to the death.

So yeah...by the end, walking away was illogical, but right in line with all of the rest of the illogical battle. All summed up by R2D2 when Obi-Wan walked out alone...

 

The novel of ROTS also brings up the fact that Obi-Wan didn't feel like having mercy on Anakin by killing him. It almost seemed like he was using the "will of the Force" excuse to let Anakin suffer for what he had done. His conflict became a moot point when he heard the Emperor's shuttle coming, and had to take off before being captured. I liked this better than the movie version, where he just walks away. In the book, even if he wanted to finish him off, he couldn't because the Imperials would be there in just a few minutes. He had to get away ASAP.

 

There was already a motivation: to get Padme to a medical facility. The Emperor's arrival wasn't needed, and it makes the Coruscant-Mustafar transit time much too short, unless in the novel the duel is meant to last significantly longer than what was shown on screen ( which seems possible, if not extremely likely, based on some of the wording ).

 

I really think because force users can feel each other's deaths, that they were pretty shell shocked. the were defeated and though Anakin was dead. Palpatine is the most powerful force user ever. Quite simply, Yoda and Obi-wan only knew of each other for a while and they were basically ordered dead by their own employer. It's like saying, why can't two brilliant hackers bring down Microsoft? Because Microsoft has more power than two former employees.

The Prophecy was true, but most prophecies make no sense unless in hindsight. The only thing the pushes Anakin's buttons are family and Luke had a lot more cards in his deck than them because he's Vader's son. Who knows what they were thinking. I don't agree with lying to anyone to make them commit patricide. It really does illustrate how out of touch the Jedi were with ordinary people. They don't understand family dynamics at all.

 

That's a contradiction. If Force users can feel one another's deaths, why did they think Anakin was dead?

 

Did they think Anakin was dead? I thought they knew he was alive. Obi-Wan left him for dead, but he wouldn't have felt him die in the force and would know he survived - that is especially true for Yoda who felt every Jedi associated death even from far far away. So I would say they knew he was alive, but felt that he was totally defeated, what with being burned to pieces and missing three limbs. The surprise would be that Palpy found a way to bring him back into action after all of that. But really, they should have foreseen that too - they were dealing with the amazingly resilliant Skywalker after all.

 

But Obi-wan didn't feel every Jedi death like Yoda has so he had no way of knowing if they were being ambushed just as he was on Utapau nor would he know if Anakin would survive his fiery death. Ergo, Obi-wan didn't think...he believed that Anakin was done for and as for Yoda, if he can feel Anakin's pain over his mother's death, than Yoda can feel Anakin's pain over being burned alive which would tell him that Anakin was going to die.

 

Oh...I meant afterwards, when they were discussing what to do about the children. When Obi-Wan left Mustafar, I figure he felt Anakin would die. But their connection was such that he would have felt it, I would think, unless Anakin becoming a Sith somehow "clouded" their bond. But even if that were true, Yoda would have felt it and I don't believe that Anakin in his weak state would be able to hide anything from Yoda - and further, Anakin wouldn't be thinking "Jedi v. Sith" at that point anyway. So I think Yoda knew Anakin survived, just not his fate and he'd tell Obi-Wan and Bail - but all of this later at the med center.

 

I agree that with The Force connection, Obi-Wan probably would have been able to feel Anakin's death. He may have been waiting for that final tremor in The Force, and that's why he had that worried look on his face after taking off. He never felt it, and, therefore, knew Anakin/Vader was still alive.

 

Which explains some of his dialogue in ROTJ.

 

It wasn't a great move by Obiwan. He should've finished him off, or not gone there in the first place. It really demonstrates the fact that Obiwan was the wrong person to train Anakin. He allowed himself to become best friend and brother to the guy and so was too attached to do what needed to be done at the end. It's irrational, but plausible in light of the Anakin - Obiwan relationship.

 

To quote Blade Runner. "Obiwan thinks, therfore he is."

 

that's descartes, cogito ergo sum, and it's an unexamined falsity because who know if we have to think to prove our existence?

other than that these seem pretty feeble attempts... obi-wan *thought* so he wouldn't have to feel. it's called empathy and it compels you to feel what the other goes through, making it impossible to separate.

 

I doubt that Anakin and Obi-wan have a connection because Obi-wan couldn't sense Anakin's pain over his mother's death nor could he sense the Dark Side within him. As for Yoda, his senses aren't always accurate since even he couldn't tell that Palpatine is a Sith Lord until its too late so he wouldn't know if Anakin survived or not.

 

I don't have any stake in this particular sub-discussion, but I will point out that the reason Kenobi couldn't sense the Dark Side in Anakin, nor Yoda the same in Palpatine, is well explained in the dialogue of AOTC and ROTS: "The Dark Side clouds everything." I don't think the points PMT99 raises are relevant to the question at hand.

 

Jedi are all about feeling the Force and letting it guide you... it seems obvious to me that Obi Wan and Yoda (now that they had a better perspective) were allowing the Force to guide their decisions. They knew the will of the Force was to stay hidden until the time was right. They knew the Force would guide them and that Luke was their salvation. It was his destiny.

That is my perception. There's no reason for anyone with a different perception to get so angry or accuse others of being "Pollyanna", LOL. There are many things in the PT that bother me, but this topic is not at all one of those.

 

Actually, it's "Hard to see, the dark side is" from TPM, combined with the fact that if a Force-user isn't using the dark side around the Jedi, then there's no dark side use for the Jedi to sense. Anakin's inner conflict is not in itself the dark side of the Force.

 

I think most of Anakin's turmoil is human, rather than necessarily Force related. He is hugely attached to someone and frustrated because he isn't powerful enough to prevent the breaking of the bond with that person. It's common enough turmoil, it just so happens that his internal human conflicts has huge consequences.

 

I agree - and Obi-Wan had no problem telling Anakin to mind his feelings on several occassions, so whether we are talking the force or Obi-Wan simply knowing Anakin well, he could read him and tell when something was going on. Anakin could read Obi-Wan too, but all the reading in the world didn't help them out.

Obi-Wan thought just what he told Yoda: I Can't kill him - and he couldn't. That was Yoda's bad, and Obi-Wan had told him prior to that how attached he'd become (at least in the novel, can't remember if that bit made the movie). But the part that is difficult for me is Obi-Wan walking away either way you look at it. If he could not kill him because he loved him too much, then walking away makes no sense because he is in essence saying he would allow him to suffer. If he didn't kill him and left it up to the will of the force - he still didn't kill him and left him to suffer and how could he do that as a human being? As a brother? As a Jedi? Jedi don't leave people to suffer like that. It was actually crueller than just killing him outright. I would imagine Vader would hate him for that (even moreso than the severing of his limbs, although that too) - as much as Obi-Wan would hate Anakin for what he saw as being betrayed.

 

Yeah, Obiwan's actions were illogical and the lack of logic is attributable to his attachment to Anakin. People do weird things when there are extremely powerful feelings involved and they often hurt the ones they care about most. Look at poor old Padme! He knew what he was supposed to do - kill Anakin - but his feelings toward him only allowed him to half do the job. In the end he tortured his friend / brother more as a result than if he'd just killed him.