PT Did Obi Wan's words in EP I create a gap in Anakin's heart and partly caused the duel in EP III?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Slowpokeking, Jan 28, 2013.

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  1. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Obi Wan told Qui Gon he supported the council's decision and said Anakin was dangerous, suggesting his master should give up on Anakin. While later he listened to Qui Gon's last wish, but I guess it still created gap between Anakin and him. Compare to Qui Gon, Obi Wan was not that great to him.
  2. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Is there a question in there - and if so, a serious one? I'm sure Anakin remembered that comment and it affected him, just as Obi-Wan remembered that Qui-Gon "threw him over" for Anakin. There's a lot of scars in all relationships.

    How serious a scar? Did they ever discuss this? Apologize? Who knows - too much of "that stuff" is missing between TPM and AoTC.
  3. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

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    Sep 21, 2012
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    Well it was the most difficult time of Anakin. He was just a freed slave, and the council didn't approve to accept him as a jedi. Obi Wan said such thing and he later accepted Anakin only because of Qui Gon's last wish. Plus Qui Gon is there, so Anakin surely would compare Obi Wan with Qui Gon Jinn all the time.
  4. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    Sep 16, 2005
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    And...? Are you making a statement, asking a question, or seeking debate? Or just validation of what you posted?
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Jan 28, 2013
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  5. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I think in one of the Clone Wars books this actually gets brought up- and Obi-Wan admits that he was jealous of Anakin when he said that- and the rift, such as it is, is patched up.

    Possibly one of the Karen Miller books.
  6. Yunners Force Ghost

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    Mar 30, 2006
    star 2
    I'm pretty sure Anakin was out of earshot when Obi-Wan said those things.
  7. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Not in the books- might have to rewatch the movie to see if Anakin's onscreen at that moment.

    EDIT:
    Page 240-241 of the TPM novel:

    At the head of the loading ramp, Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi were engaged in a heated discussion. Wind whipped down the canyons of the city's towering buildings, hiding their words from the boy. Carefully, he edged closer so that he could listen in.

    "It is not disrespect, Master!" Obi-Wan was saying vehemently. "It is the truth!"

    "From your point of view, perhaps." Qui-Gon's face was hard and tight with anger.

    The younger Jedi's voice dropped a notch. "The boy is dangerous. They all sense it. Why can't you?'

    "His fate is uncertain, but he is not dangerous," Qui-Gon corrected sharply. "The Council will decide Anakin's future. That should be enough for you." He turned away dismissively. "Now get on board!"

    Obi-Wan wheeled away and stalked up the ramp into the ship. R2-D2 followed, still whistling happily. Qui-Gon turned to Anakin, and the boy walked up to him.

    "Master Qui-Gon," he said uncomfortably, riddled with doubt and guilt over what was happening. "I don't want to be a problem."

    Qui-Gon placed s reassuring hand on his shoulder. "You won't be, Annie." He glanced toward the ship, then knelt before the boy. "I'm not allowed to train you, so I want you to watch me instead and be mindful of what you see. Always remember, your focus determines your reality."
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jan 28, 2013
  8. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    I've checked, and it was indeed the Karen Miller books in which the incident is brought up and Obi-Wan admits his jealousy- specifically, Siege, pages 276-277.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jan 28, 2013
  9. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Yet another reason not to read Miller's books.

    I find the question posited in the OP and the ridiculous amount of sensitivity afforded Anakin in general incredibly annoying. I don't think it had any significant impact on their relationship, and if it did, then it's just one more reason to say to hell with Anakin.
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  10. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I didn't remember Obi-Wan actually saying he was jealous.

    Paraphrasing here as opposed to getting the novel and typing out the whole thing: Anakin says something along the lines of "I guess I'm dangerous after all?" And Obi-Wan has a momentary thought of Where the **** did that come from? before remembering that scene on Coruscant more than 10 years earlier. And he apologizes, hoping that the statute of limitations on apologies is longer than 10 or 11 years.

    I liked the scene, but I took it as a comment that Anakin happened to remember at that moment, not a comment that he spent a lot of time dwelling on, and building resentment against Obi-Wan. They were in a pretty stressful situation there. Anakin may have been temperamental but I never got the impression that he held grudges. He got angry, sometimes very angry, and then was done.

    And I would have to agree that if Anakin did spend the next ten years being petulant over one offhand comment--made in the middle of another stressful situation--then fan animosity towards Anakin is that much more warranted.

    As far as Obi-Wan "not being that great" to Anakin--LOL really? We really didn't see much of Qui-Gon with Anakin; he was kind and fatherly, sure, but he also behaved like one who had found his ultimate "prize." "I have the Chosen One! I've got to get him to Coruscant! Implications and consequences? What implications and consequences? I'll make the Jedi Council have the same opinion of Anakin that I have!" That was about Qui-Gon, not about Anakin, even if he did do Anakin a favor (maybe) by freeing him from slavery.

    Obi-Wan loved Anakin and did the best he could with what he had to offer. Anakin had issues that were far out of Obi-Wan's reach to solve.
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  11. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Qui Gon admired Anakin's talent, helped him get free and Anakin became a Jedi, his dream came true all because of Qui Gon, at that time nobody beside Shmi really believe much in him, not even Padme and Obi Wan, so that's enough for Anakin to put Qui Gon to one of the highest places in his heart.
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  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    "Anakin," said Obi-Wan intently. "Listen to me. I was wrong. In that moment I was hurt, I was angry." He swallowed. "Anakin, I was jealous."

    Some part of him had always known that. Even as a child, abandoned to the care of an astromech droid on that landing platform, he'd felt those hot, roiling emotions in Qui-Gon's quicksilver apprentice. Even when he'd been too young to understand everything, he'd always understood how people were feeling.
  13. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    I don't think Qui-Gon viewed anakin as a "prize" that seems very unjedi like. Sidious seemed to treat Luke and Anakin like a "prize".

    I think it was more Qui-Gon following his heart: the firm belief that Anakin would bring good to the galaxy because of his talents. Qui-Gon helped put Anakin on the path to freedom but it was Anakin who ultimately won the freedom. Seeing how Qui-Gon was responsible for Anakin, it would be very cold to just drop him or take him back to tatooine since the council refused.

    Qui-Gon stepping in to train Anakin was noble I think. Obi-Wan should have eventually understood this. If Obi-Wan was older and had found Anakin, I believe he would not have abandoned him too. His temporary jealousy of Anakin was his youth blinding him to see the bigger picture.
  14. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Great post there. As said below, I think there was more to Qui-Gon's actions than what you say, but kind and grandfatherly to Anakin as he was, he was somewhat cool and reserved with his own apprentice. In my opinion it was a combination of Anakin's youth, potential and being a non-Jedi that affected Qui-Gon's interactions with him, but there is little doubt that Qui-Gon's interest in Anakin deepened once he decided he was the Chosen One and there was a certain amount of "possessiveness" that crept into his interactions thereafter.

    I agree, as said above, there was an element of both "finding the prize" and following his "belief that Anakin would bring good to the galaxy." You suggest Obi-Wan should have come to believe the same, almost as if you suspect he never did do so. I believe Obi-Wan DID eventually come to accept this - certainly by the time of his knighting.
  15. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    It seems like there have been a lot of threads lately being kind of...harsh...on Obi-Wan. I agree that he probably shouldn't have said that within earshot of Anakin, but, to be fair, he was just repeating what the Council had said.

    And honestly, I don't expect that this one incident played a role in Anakin's fall. It probably got him and Obi-Wan off on the wrong foot, but I don't think that Anakin was thinking of that instance when he turned. That seems a bit...well, weird, truthfully.

    I think that Obi-Wan is meant, in many ways, to exemplify the Old Jedi Order and he had both their greatest strengths and weaknesses as a result. Thus, a lot of Anakin's problems would have been more reflective of issues with the Order and its policies rather than Obi-Wan himself. At least, in my opinion.
  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I agree that it caused a "gap in his heart"- but it had no part in the duel, since that gap was "healed" so to speak, in Siege when Anakin & Obi-Wan talk it over.
  17. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Lately the posts have been in the "bad PT" and "bad Obi-Wan" vein. And so another cycle continues. No doubt Obi-Wan made mistakes. He made a lot. Some had some very bad consequences. So guess what - he wasn't perfect. I am perfectly willing to concede that. But the mistakes he made were human and so I accept them.

    But I do dislike the inherent view that Anakin's issues were almost entirely due to the way he was treated by the Order and by Obi-Wan. As if every one of his human "faults" must be laid at the feet of others. and thus excusing Anakin from any responsibility for his own actions: he was just a child and the Jedi did this to him so of course he reacted like that and if the Order only welcomed him with open arms and if Obi-Wan would only praise him and encourage him to burst through any and all restrictions because he didn't need to have boundaries....
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  18. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I'm told the Jude Watson books take things too far the other way, with him being like AoTC Anakin, only worse.

    Anything to confirm or deny this? What's Jude Watson Anakin really like, overall?
  19. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I don't think that one scene was the cause behind the problems in Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship. Nor do I believe that any antipathy on either Anakin or Obi-Wan's parts was the sole cause. So, to blame Anakin for being petulance over the space of ten years doesn't strike me as the logical answer. Despite the two men being close, I suspect that too many factors - both minor and major - had led to that duel on Mustafar and what ever happened later. And I also feel that both are to blame.
    Last edited by DRush76, Jan 29, 2013
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  20. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    You are correct. Jude Watson wrote an Anakin that one might suspect would have, at the age of three or four, Force-choked another kid who took his toy. She even flat-out said in an interview that she can't stand Anakin and can't distinguish him from Vader.

    I'd rather read an entire book focusing on Jar-Jar stepping in eopie poop than read another of her books.

    I do think Anakin and Obi-Wan might (emphasis on "might") have gotten off on the wrong foot but that is easily fixed, and in their situation I believe it was.
  21. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    The JA/JQ books...ah, there's a kettle of worms. The JA books flatter and pay homage to Qui-Gon no end and in a way actually focus on him with Obi-Wan getting the left-overs. Maybe I exaggerate, but the essence is true.

    In JQ, even there Qui-Gon gets fawning attention - a dead Qui-Gon I might remind you all. Anakin has "issues" especially with Ferus and Obi-Wan hasn't a clue how to deal with Anakin and is often invoking the tiresome "What would Qui-Gon do or say." "Obviously" Anakin would be taken in hand, straightened out, and set on the right path if only Obi-Wan acted like Qui-Gon or if Qui-Gon were alive. Anakin's little "inside monster" is just scrambling for an escape...

    Yes, JW has said Qui-Gon is her favorite Jedi and the "ideal one" no matter his all but ignoring Obi-Wan and leaving him fighting for scraps of his master's attention and then being unable to live up to Qui-Gon: I half expect any sequel would have Qui-Gon angrily scolding Obi-Wan for "not having a clue."
  22. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I've only got one JA book (The Dark Rival) and 3 Jedi Apprentice books (Books 1, 2 and 4 in the series) but I've read the comic Jedi Quest story where Anakin kills the slaver Krayn.

    While Anakin seems to have "issues" he didn't seem all that much of a monster- does he get worse in the later books?
  23. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    It's admittedly been a while since I've read JQ: I don't think Anakin becomes a monster at all, just that he has more and more trouble keeping "the monster" inside per the author. He's jealous, petty, angry and occasionally allowed to be scared - he seeks eternal validation through putting others down and puffing himself up.

    Oh, and JW didn't write the first JA book. The Qui-Gon "fawning" kind of came about with the introduction of Qui-Gon's love interest Tahl and his single-minded focus on her and then his almost-fall to the dark following her death.
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Jan 29, 2013
  24. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    But hopefully not to the point that "one might suspect (he) would have, at the age of three or four, Force-choked another kid who took his toy."
  25. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Well, I think I kind of agree with Anakinfan in that one could see a temper-tantrum toddler Anakin getting in a huge snit and lashing out.
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