PT Did other movies released in 1999-2005 affect perception of the prequels?

I like what you said about yoda it's very true as a kid I wondered what he was like as an active Jedi. I always thought he would use the force or words to fight his battles but in AOTC he immediately pulls out his lightsaber,and doesn't defeat dooku. Then he goes to fight the emperor and loses again. I just feel they didn't match the mystique he had in the OT.

Also my questions weren't completely rhetorical, I would've welcomed debate with someone who enjoyed both trilogies which I do.
I don't hate the PT at all I just feel it could've been better but we can say that for so many things.

 

I kinda think it would've been more fitting if Yoda was already retired from the Jedi Council by the time Episode I happened, but he was kept around as a Jedi "spiritual consultant" as it were to train younglings. He could raised objections to the Jedi being involved in the Clone Wars. I think that would've fit his character moreso if Yoda correctly sensed the truth rather than getting clowned by Palpatine alongside everyone else.

He should've foughty Palpy in the end, no lightsabers, just full on with the Force, Palpy only wins because of circumstance or because he cheats. No Jedi can match Yoda for pure mastery of the Force.

Also Yoda being a war commander in the Clone Wars ... eh .... I dunno. It didn't really seem to fit the character.

 

He has nothing to overcome?
He has to overcome his human flaws: anger (fight with Maul), prejudice (young Anakin, Jar Jar), impatience (student Anakin), personal betrayal (vadered Anakin) etc.

I can only agree with Cryogenic .

I regard Anakin as the much more compelling, interesting, honest and nuanced character. Anakin makes you think and leaves an impression - positve or negative - on almost every single viewer. I've never met anyone who was "indifferent" on Anakin. Frodo on the other hand....well, let's say it like this: When I'm in the mood for a "hero's journey", I'll take Luke Skywalker's any day...

 

I'm not sure those are the best examples, though, since we never saw him struggle to overcome any of them:

-His anger with Maul actually helped him win that fight, and the next time we saw him, he seemed calm again. It never evolved into any kind of personal struggle for him

-I don't know if I'd say he was exactly prejudiced against young Anakin and Jar Jar, he just objected to dragging the village idiot and a kid along on a dangerous mission. And that's not really something he SHOULD overcome, since it makes perfect sense.

-He was impatient with Anakin in AOTC, and then we skip ahead to ROTS, and suddenly he seems a lot more patient. We never witnessed any struggle to overcome this flaw. If anything, I think it's more a case of Anakin growing up a bit between the films, so Obi-Wan felt there was less need to play the role of the stern teacher.

-He was betrayed by Anakin, but I don't see how that was a human flaw in Obi-Wan exactly (unless you want to chalk it up to his bad teaching. But, in that case, we never saw him overcome it. Sure, he didn't screw up the same way with Luke, but that's because he was dead and handed off the job to Yoda.)

 

Kind of a side note, but I really loved the sentinels in matrix. Sentinels and Droideka were definitely the coolest cinema robots to come out of the 90s

 

A 'masturbatory exercise'?! ROFL

 

Not at all. His anger almost got him killed, hanging in the pit. It was only when he remembered his master, his teachings and the "Jedi Way" when he succeeded....

It makes sense from a narrow-minded un-Jedi POV, and only then. In the end of the day, it was Anakin (winning the podrace) and Jar Jar (bridging the Naboo and the Gungans) who made it possible for them (the Jedi) to accomplish their Jedi mission and free the planet. Consequently, he took Anakin as his apprentice (by his own choice, Qui-Gon didn't force him) and greeted Jar Jar extremely nicely in AOTC (not nearly as cold as he did treat him in TPM).

True to some extent, but that's not uncommon for episodic storytelling, especially when the episodes are quite a few years apart (the PT spans 13 yeats). We also never witnessed why Luke changed from being broken and utterly upset about the truth (TESB) to complete and ultimate confidence/trust (ROTJ), similar with Han.

Yes, it's not a "flaw" (my fault), but it's a human challenge he needed to face and overcome. There were many emotions, also ones that typically lead to irrational behaviour that confronted him here, but Obi-Wan mastered all of them perfectly and managed to stop Anakin as good as anyone could have hoped for, realistically.

 

I remember Yoda in ESB stating to Luke that a Jedi must have the most 'serious mind'. Something I felt Obi Wan throughout the PT was never lacking.

 

Actually I was just talking about this on another thread so here it is:

The Matrix is not an actual comparison that really works in every way but generally let's look at the real failure of that franchise.

The first movie was a surprise and very strong hit. It appealed to the section of the Star Wars fans some of whom probably looked at it as something more along the lines of what they wanted the PT to be. Darker and cooler and all that standard edgy stuff.

It wasn't a new Star Wars generally but got that pop culture zeitgeist. The follow-ups came 4 years later and got all sorts of build-up and does very well. Now I forget exactly what happened. Did the turn come after Reloaded or was that heaped on Revolutions?

It tanked in comparison as the 300M or so gain from 1 to 2 dropped back to 1's level for 3 and it opened massively then totally sunk. Domestically it made 118M by the end of week 2. The rest of the run it only made 20M more.

For comparison to ROTS domestically. It made 282M in 2 weeks then another 98M for the rest of the run. LOTR :ROTK made 262M in 2 weeks then 115M the rest of the run.

Further to TPM it made 223M in 2 weeks then another 209M the rest of it's run. Now that is amazing.

I think people going looked at it as being mainly Qui-Gon and the Queen's movie. No matter what TPM did and how much it went over it was never going to recapture that feeling of total newness that ANH had as seen with the reception for TESB and ROTJ. That kind of thing happens only once to any series just like The Matrix which did build on the first film which was able to really get over on home video release.

TFA is certainly not going to have the same newness and freshness that TPM had. It's going "old school" which will have it's own charms but it's not going to have the same impact as The Matrix did. It going to be more of the "great another Star Wars movie!"

How quickly will that fade after TFA especially with a movie year after year?

I thought the prequels were far more startling by far and I don't expect TFA or any of the new films to touch them in so many, many ways. I don't think they can because they are certainly going to be trading off of George's OT iconography. Doesn't mean I won't enjoy them as I expect to it will be interesting to see the revistitation of it all but JJ is no Lucas but if he takes enough from him and does the same thing that Lucas did and use images that inspired him and then translate that and take it to different places then it could work very well.

Yes. The reaction to the prequels by the audience was not antipathy save for a relatively small, vociferous group of people plus just the rather natural segment of people that like to not like things.

Now using the box office as the ultimate vote of the public then consider this.:

Domestic box office:
SWPT 1B 121M
LOTR 1B 30M

Domestic tickets sold:
SW PT 203M
LOTR 174M

 

That really doesn't reflect how people see the franchises.

 

Of course it does for the actual audience that went to the films.

Since the people that don't agree with it don't want to accept it then they don't. They can't. It doesn't compute to them that the 3 movies TPM and ROTS in particular are incredible successes.

The "Well it's Star Wars so of course it's successful" is used but only as long as they can pick and choose when they want to use it.

As I've said when TFA is a huge success then those same people will go on about how the "franchise damage" from the PT was overcome.

So erm... exactly how did the "awful" prequels best LOTR domestically and get anywhere near the worldwide total:

Total Box Office GrossSWPT 2B 419M
LOTR 2B 916M

and match it in worldwide across the platforms gross?

Billion Dollar Earning Movies 99-05 (Domestic and Foreign Rentals,Worldwide Video,Worldwide TV +Other)
SW Prequel Trilogy 3B 482M
LOTR 3B 434M

I would also point out the similarity between the nonsense the PT puts up with compared to the same for The Hobbit.

What if the same happens for the ST and stand-alones sooner or later?

What are they going to do then?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong Qui-Riv-Brid, but it generally appears that you've pretty much made your mind up about TFA already? Without actually seeing it first. Tell me, if after you've seen it and are maybe totally blown away by it. So much so that it actually forces you into a rethink on the prequels. Think of such a moment if you will to an alcoholic having a moment of clarity lol. Will you freely admit to such an event? Just curious

 

That's an odd impression you get.

I am talking about production processes and the like and the reality of the actual genuine audience reaction to the movies and what that means.

We don't know what VII will really be like do we? Even when it comes it's only the first part so it will be incomplete.

Now that said to compare Lucas to Abrams is not at all fair to Abrams but it's going to happen eventually so at least we might as well speculate about it. Now if JJ had free reign who knows what he would do? He doesn't of course. He's in the position of delivering a movie that is a continuation of the entire saga but placed after ROTJ so you can't do what Lucas did in the prequels and take things to some totally different areas.

In that sense it's all going to be much more standard but we know that already. The trick is what is new that he will come up with? I assume that something will be.

Let's hope so! Then again maybe I'll just really like it.

Elaborate please. I don't follow the progression of one to the other.

Of course you know that I think that you are the one in need of clarity regarding the prequels. In fact I wonder if exactly that thing won't happen for many people once they see VII. What if they come out and then realize. What a minute. That isn't the OT. It's Star Wars.

 

I'm just yanking ya chain Qui-Riv-Brid I'm going to judge TFA on its own merits. Not how good it is in comparison to what's gone before. I'm expecting something good. But if I feel it's below par? I'll say so. And just for the record, I don't need clarity regarding the prequels. I didn't like the vision of the backstory. And that will never change

 

It would be really unfortunate if the ST became just another PT v OT battlefield for the SW fan base.

 

I didn't wonder about Yoda as a kid. At the age of 12, I was cognizant of the utility of that character. The Prequels rubbed my face in it .

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No arguing Luke Skywalker greatest heroes journey ever along with the OT being greatest movie trilogy of all time IMO

 

To a long reply above, box office numbers really have limited value in the discussion of these trilogies.

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Ol Logan's Run

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Truth

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Yikes, that makes for some pretty dry school yard banter.

"Hey Johnny, did you ever wonder what that Yoda guy must have been like when he was younger? I mean he was suppose to be a great jedi warrior or something"

"No Timmy I don't wonder about that, Im cognizant of the utility of that character"

 

To say that Phantom Menace was almost forgotten upon release is perhaps one of the most misleading things I have read. That movie resonated with my childhood more than any of the Disney movies, even more than the Toy Story films. It's perhaps the shining light that kept Star Wars rolling for me for many years.

And personally, I don't really care for either The Matrix or LOTR. Sure, those films where critically acclaimed back in the day, but so was the horrendous macho-porn flick of Fight Club. Besides, I was too young to see those movies as a kid, and now that I am much older, have absolutely no interest for seeing such dark and cynical movies.

Sure, it may have altered the perception for some, but to me the important thing is to listen to my gut and not to follow what people think is cool or hip- because 99% of the time it simply isn't.

 

LOTR is dark and cynical? Sure, whatever.

 

It's certainly dark, maybe not cynical. but the Matrix at the very least kind of is.

 

LOTR is no more dark than a SW film.