Did Padme love Anakin?

I think it's insulting to Padme to think she would say "Ani, you've grown up" to someone who just made some pretencious comment about letting go her pride

I think she was praising him for his insight.

...or she would say "to be angry is to be human" to someone who just wiped out a village.

I agreed with her there. To be angry is to be human--and there would be something wrong with him if he weren't angry at the village that was responsible for torturing his mother to death.


Excellent post as usual, Zam. I've had to stuff my face with chocolate and various beverages myself in this thread because I can't stand the persistant proliferation of Anakin-hating, a proliferation that makes me wonder how someone would be treated in real life if his mother were tortured to death and he took revenge--would he be screamed at as a "Baby killer! You should have made sure they were guilty first!"? I hope not.

 

Anakin did what any young man would have done after seeing what those monsters did to his own mother. Padme did not marry him because she felt sorry for him after his Tattooine confession. Had she not deeply cared for him, then she, being as strong willed as she is, would never have married him. If we had seen what happened offscreen after the arena battle was over, maybe we would have understood why they chose to marry right away instead of waiting to make sure they were ready.

 

"I truly, deeply love you, and before we die i want you to know"

 

Petulant and romantically inept? He took courting lessons from Mace and Yoda--what do you expect?

Well you're the one who described it as courtly love.

As far as Shmi--I don't know why Padme didn't free her, other than her hands were probably tied. I don't think she was loaded or had the Naboo government's funds at her disposal, and I don't know that she was free to go to another planet with its own government and free one slave. She seemed to believe in working within the system, which is why she asked about the Republic's anti-slavery laws

In TPM it's clear that Padme learns that it's no good relying on the system, she has to get things done herself. But for some reason this kind hearted, do-the-right-thing woman does nothing about Shmi's slavery. For 10 years. Shmi risked everyrthing to help her.
Slavery is an appalling thing, as a slave Shmi could be sold at anytime to any scumbag. Padme must know this. So why did she do nothing? And what are we to make of it?

would he be screamed at as a "Baby killer! You should have made sure they were guilty first!"? I hope not.

? Babies can't be guilty.

g

 

To be angry is to be human
Well, i don't debate the truth of this statement, i debate it was the right thing to say at that point. It's like she completely misses the problem. I mean, it's more than Anakin getting angry, he acted out of anger/hate, he's still filled with hate, he knows it's wrong, but he doesn't know how to handle it, he's all screwed up, and what does he get - "to be angry is to be human"...OMG, even saying nothing would be far better

wow, IamZam,
that was a long read, but thanks for posting anyway. Uhm, i should think about it so i'd be able to say something meaningful, but that's something i can't do right now...

 

It has a lot to do with the training he recieved, I fear.

 

would he be screamed at as a "Baby killer! You should have made sure they were guilty first!"? I hope not.

Babies can't be guilty.

The people who have said that were saying that Anakin should have made sure the grown Tuskens were guilty first. I don't know--maybe walked up to them with his saber and said, "Hey, dude--were you the one who killed my mother?"

 

Padme should have encouraged him to go to the Jedi with what happened just so he could live with himself, but otherwise, she did exactly the right thing.

Well, ACTUALLY, the right thing to do woud be to get him psychiatric help and tell the Jedi herself... But when you love someone, you try to protect them from anyone hurting them. Padme thought that Anakin was suffering enough, that he didn't need HER coming down on him OR the Jedi Council damning him for an act of passion that was understandable in her eyes.

But this is the thing...What Padme reaction was out of LOVE. When you love someone, even if they did something horrific, you try to comfort them the best way you can. In Anakin case, he believed that he had acted in anger and without cause. Padme was showing him that being angry is a natural event for aperson...that he was acting out of a human flaw.

However, and Anakin is right abou this "I am a Jedi...I am better than that."

Padme acted out of love for Anakin, but love's solutions could be wrong. She should have helped him realize that he needed to face the full responsibilty for his actions.

 

Well, ACTUALLY, the right thing to do woud be to get him psychiatric help and tell the Jedi herself...

He might need the psychiatric help just from the trauma of finding his mother in that condition, even if he hadn't gone ballistic on the village, so I won't argue that point. She should probably encourage him to do that--but not while they're in the garage, and the encouragement should be in the form of "This would help you with your grief, Anakin", not, "You're a psychopath, Anakin."

I also don't agree that she should tell the Jedi herself. That's not her place.

If my mother-in-law were tortured to death by a bunch of thugs and my husband did an Anakin on them, I would not call the police myself, but I would encourage him to turn himself in and I would help him find a good lawyer along with some counseling.

But when you love someone, you try to protect them from anyone hurting them. Padme thought that Anakin was suffering enough, that he didn't need HER coming down on him OR the Jedi Council damning him for an act of passion that was understandable in her eyes.

This I agree with. And sadly, I think the Jedi Council would have condemned him rather than being compassionate, so maybe Padme thought she was doing the lesser of two evils--maybe she thought, and rightly so, that she would have made things worse by turning him in.

 

Anakin would have taken this as a betrayal of the woman he had feelings for. Had I been in his position, I would have done the same thing. And had my woman told my supervisors what I had done, and then got me into a mental hospital, I would have felt betrayed by her.

 

Agreed with the above three posts.

 

In some cases there is nothing one can say to make it better. This isn't something she can fix. She tries to console him, but in the end the best she can do is to just be there and hold him.

If she were to call him on it or confront him about it, it would only make things worse and send him over the edge. As a woman in love the only thing she see's is what is right in front of her. The man she loves in serious pain. That is all she see's and all that matters at that particular moment in time.

 

I also think that Anakin didn?t have to tell Padme about what happened out there, but he did.

 

And he did because he was feeling guilty. Ever tried to hold something in when you're feeling guilty about it? It's not a good thing to do.

 

Yes. He feels very guilty and ashamed of what he let himself do. He trusts her, and she is there. He can't take it. IT is tearing him apart. It is only natural that he confess and she is the best choice.

 

'I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this.'

Although, I fully think Anakin was wrong with what he did.. I found myself not feeling sorry for the tribe, but for him. And I don't really have a favorite character what-so-ever in Star Wars, my emotions just seemed easier attached to what they did to him.. then him to them.

He knows what he did was wrong. He sobs over it. They took the first person he ever loved away. The one person who he suffered over because he wanted her so much, yet wanted so bad to get away from the place she was at. Can you see where I'm coming from? He's confused. And I think this is actually what Lucas wants us to feel.. exactly how he does- yet confused as to which side to side with.

As for Padme. Maybe the reason she comforted Anakin so much is because she didn't like seeing someone she loved and cared for suffer as much as he is at the moment. And he is suffering. He's in pain. Yoda says it himself that's he's in so much pain. Padme loves Anakin- her heart belongs to him and him only. And vice-versa. The one thing that Anakin wanted most in his life was to become a Jedi. If he didn't love her. If he didn't know himself that he was in love with her, he wouldn't risk his dream for nothing. So yes. My opinion on this matter. They both. Truly. Deeply. Love one another.

I've said my part. But I'm not going to argue over it. Nothing's going to change my mind. I don't expect anyone to change their mind either..d=)

 

*round of applause for ChosenJedi*

You rock.

 

I have a question about the throne room scene, where Padme treats Anakin a bit harshly. This is one of the scenes that, to me, seems to put a hold on the credibility of the love story. Padme pretty much insults Anakin by saying he's still just an apprentice, and brushes him off when he said he was put in charge of her security. When I first saw that scene, I said, 'Ouch, that's gotta hurt.'

I suppose the purpose of the scene was to explain more about the Separatist crisis and set up where Padme was going. What I don?t understand is why GL had the interaction between Padme and Anakin happen the way it did. I see no warmth between them; a battle of wills perhaps, but a coldness that seems out of character for Padme, especially in light of the scenes between Padame and Anakin before and after this scene.

Thoughts?

 

They definatly loved each other. I think they both cared deeply for each other in Episode 1, and of couse, Anakin had a crush on her, but that love changes during their time together in Episode 2. They fall in love during the course of the movie.

 

They were too young in Episode 1. That is what makes the whole love thing absurd in my mind. Then they go ten years without seeing each other, which brings us to Episode 2. And it is a fact that Padme treats Anakin very badly until the arena scene, where she suddenly decides she must have the poor boy, as if he had no choice if it was her who decided they should be together, but not the other way around.

 

Azanulbizar:

I actually think her put down of Anakin in the Throne Room scene is excellent in showing how suddenley Padme's professional and personal personas are starting to clash.

Notice how she personalises Anakin in front of the Queen and the Naboo Council. He's not the Jedi that's protecting her, but someone quite different. And to some degree she hasn't totally gotten rid of the thinking that Anakin is a little boy (which is why she basically cuts his legs off at the kneecaps).

She's basically forgotten the protocal of the situation because of the effect Anakin has on her.

Note that Anakin throughout that scene tries to maintain an air of professionalism, replying respectfully to Padme's position. But its Padme's responses that break that front.

 

What I don?t understand is why GL had the interaction between Padme and Anakin happen the way it did. I see no warmth between them; a battle of wills perhaps, but a coldness that seems out of character for Padme, especially in light of the scenes between Padame and Anakin before and after this scene.

I used to think he wanted to show something like how Anakin accepts the authority of Padme, as opposed to Obi-Wan. I agree this kind of behaviour was totally out of character for Padme though. On one hand, if Anakin wasn't her friend, she wouldn't act like that (provided she has manners, after all Anakin was in charge of the security), on the other hand, i thought Padme wasn't the type being that mean to her friends.

EDIT: yep, what DarthTerrious is saying

 

They were friends from the time they met. Obviously at that point he was too young to be anything else, or do anything else. And at 14 she would not see him as anything other than a friend with whom she had a very strong, unexplainable bond.

I don?t see any proof of an unexplainable bond in the movie. It?s never mentioned and it?s never shown. Just friends, that shared a hugely important time in both their lives.

is clear that he still feels as strongly about her as ever. She is checking him out then, and if you watch her face you can already see that her eyes are just fixated on him. She can't believe it. This can't be the little boy from ten years ago. It takes awhile for her to wrap her mind around this, as it would for most of us I assume.

I don?t see her checking him out in a sexual or even an appreciative way. I think her mind is so wrapped up in the death of her handmaiden, the assassination attempt and the Seperatist movement that it would be too far out of character for her or really anyone to be checking out a guy or be fixating on him under those circumstances.

I do think she is taken back/shocked because he?s grown up and she still has in her mind that he is that 10 yr old little boy. I do think it?s important that she is shocked by his growing up. It will remind her that she herself is getting older and that time is slipping by.

But it is clear early on that she is well aware of how he feels about her, and the fact that he is totally NOT a little boy is well something she needs time to get used to. She is uncomfortable with him watching her, because she knows unlike most guards for whom it is just a job, he looks at her with totally different eyes. He doesn't just see someone to protect, he see's Padme the girl he fell for back on Tatooine.

True.

Then he rushes in and saves her life, and as somone else I believe pointed out, (in a different thread) the phallic symbol is obvious. Their eyes meet and then he takes off to go find the assasins. He was attuned more than anyone an knew exactly when she was in danger and didnt' think twice about doing whatever it took to save her life.

I?m not sure what you consider the phallic symbol in that scene, but whoa. If you speak of him waving his lightsaber around, then Obi-Wan had his out too. . Whoa Hayden and Ewan in the same room waving their phallic symbols.

But as they get to know each other again on the journey to Naboo she clearly becomes more comforable with him, and has accepted the young man he as become and reconciled it with the boy he used to be. In fact she quite likes what he has become. She is falling for him, and falling hard.

Again not shown clearly in the movie. In the journey to Naboo, she does seem to relax and begin to let him in. However, I don?t think there?s anything in that scene that demonstrates her falling hard. I?d say she is vaguely attracted to him, but probably doesn?t even recognize that fact herself. The scene where I think that is shown, is where she smiles and looks away shyly. Vague, but I see it.


When they argue at the Queen's court, it is clear they are more than just a Senator and her bodyguard. The body language indicates a much deeper relationship, and in an attempt to cover it up, she over compensates and cuts him down. Senseing that now is not a good time, he defers to her wishes, like he does many more times, leaving her more conflicted than ever.

I don?t see any body language that supports they are more than just friends. In fact, when they are walking out of the room, Padme?s body language says quite clearly, I?m in charge and he?s working for me. In that scene I don?t see any underlying attraction or even friendship. She is essentially putting him in his place and establishing herself as his boss and setting the progress they made on the transport back to nothing.

This is clearly evident in the first kiss, she obviously wants it as much as he does, but then her brain kicks in and says "wait a minute, do you know what

 

"If she were to call him on it or confront him about it, it would only make things worse and send him over the edge."

Thus, he did not go over the edge at that point. He went over the edge later (and became Vader).

JenX:
"Do you think it's possible that GL is using conventional techniques to tell a story about unconventional love?"

I won't be able to answer your question, but it's a good question and it made me think about something.

When you said "techniques," it made me think about techniques in creating art. Moviemaking is an art form, and a pretty big one since it combines many other art forms (acting, costume design, set design, digital art, etc.). A lot of you probably know this from college art classes or whatever, but all art gets criticism. Critical reviews are written about movies, computer games, and art museums.

That's what we're doing. We're criticizing (I mean it in the sense of positive and negative criticism) Lucas's work and his techniques. What we criticize is how "effective" the artist is in portraying something and convincing us of what he's portraying. We're never wrong in our criticisms, unless we're being dishonest about how we ourselves feel. Art would often be criticized by saying "I think this part was effective, but I think that part was not effective at all and I think he should have done this to make it more effective in showing the emotion that he was hoping for." You would say these things because this is the way you are, and it's the way you were shaped by past experiences. Like you might say that Lucas is effective in portraying love, because that sure looks like love to you. He used techniques like the meadow scene, the lake scene, having dinner, various lines the characters speak and looks that the actors give (or attempt to give, depending on how convincing you found it) each other. Someone might say that the Anakin/Padme story is effective and realistic because, for example, that someone would fall in love with Anakin too if she were in Padme's place. That's the way she knows she is, and she's probably actually gone through something similar (maybe she sees the images of Padme looking at Anakin at the lake, and is reminded of herself), so it's a valid, honest opinion. Someone else might say that the love story is contrived and not really "love" at all, because she has probably also been in Padme's position but found that having experiences like what Padme had would not amount to love. Maybe she sees the images of Anakin and Padme in the meadow and thinks, having a good time like that would only amount to a crush; or maybe she sees Padme being an intelligent senator or queen and later watches Anakin giving in to his anger, and thinks that such an intelligent person would not marry such an immature person (this is somewhat my own opinion). It's an honest opinion, based on real experiences and values, so it's also valid.

I think criticizing each other's criticisms is okay, but in some cases it honestly looks dorky to me. If you agree with Lucas and think his portrayal was effective, it doesn't make your opinion better in any way than that of someone who doesn't agree. Your opinion is a valid one not because you happen to agree with the artist (and I have seen some people think that their opinions are somehow "verified" by Lucas's words), but because it's your own honest opinion and it's also an informed opinion because you know Lucas's intentions. If you disagree with Lucas and think he failed horribly at convincing you that Padme loved Anakin, it's not that you "don't get it"; maybe you very much do "get it," you understand exactly what Lucas is intending with each image he shows you, and you have studied those images. But he was not effective to you: those images might be exactly images of your own conception of what love is the opposite of, based on your experiences. You can't change the pasts of the people you disagree with. Maybe they look at Padme and they see themselves, someone who loved a person but found that they really loved the person they sa

 

In fact, because the thrown scene is right before this, it further throws doubt on the first kiss being anything more than just a spur of the moment inclination on her part. It?s a needless flaw, that diminishes this very important first kiss.

She didn't have to kiss him, and I've never kissed anyone on the spur of the moment--not like that.

Besides, Lucas said she was dressing revealingly because of her attraction to Anakin. And if you can bring up the EU in reference to Qui-Gon's character, then we can certainly bring up the movie novelization in reference to the love story.

I didn't like the throne room scene either, but I took it as Padme just being bossy Padme. She was just as bossy in TPM with Qui-Gon.

In fact I think it's very telling that Anakin never says the words "I love you". That has to be purposeful.

Those words can be cheap.