Saga Did Palpatine even need Anakin?

The Jedi Order is gone but they know there will be survivors.

Sidious: We must move quickly. The Jedi are relentless. If they are not all destroyed, it will be civil war without end. First, I want you to go to the Jedi Temple. We will catch them off balance. Do what must be done, Lord Vader. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy. Only then will you be strong enough with the Dark Side to save Padmé.

Vader: What about the other Jedi spread across the galaxy?

Sidious: Their betrayal will be dealt with. After you have killed all the Jedi in the Temple, go to the Mustafar system. Wipe out Viceroy Gunray and the other Separatist leaders. Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy! And...we shall have...peace.


Obi-Wan: How many other Jedi managed to survive?

Yoda: Heard from no one, have we.

Bail Organa: I saw thousands of troops attack the Jedi Temple. That's why I went looking for Yoda.

Obi-Wan: Have we had any contact from the Temple?

Yoda: Received a coded retreat message, we have.

Bail Organa: It requests all Jedi to return to the Temple. It says that the war is over . . .

Obi-Wan: Well, then we must go back! If there are any stragglers, they will fall into the trap and be killed.

Yoda: Suggest dismantling the coded signal, do you?

Obi-Wan: Yes, Master. There is too much at stake here, and we need a clearer picture of what has happened.

Yoda: I agree. And a little more knowledge might light our way.

 

But the immediate aftermath shows no effort being made to thwart the relentless Jedi. Anakin is referring to the Jedi before they get whacked by order 66. Not survivors.

And the stuff with Yoda and Obi Wan I always found disturbing. Sure they turn off the beacon but then they decide to disappear until the time is right and don't seem concerned with them beyond that. Even though "so much is at stake". Obi Wan in fact assumes they are all hunted down and destroyed. Convenient.

 

It's the start of the Jedi purge, of course one movie cannot cover all casualties since the main story was about Anakin's fall, and the transformation of the Republic into an Empire. We saw some of the casualties but it's easy to assume some survived and will be hunted down in the period between RotS and ANH like Obi-Wan stated in ANH.

Because they have a mission of their own.

Yoda: Hidden, safe, the children must be kept.
Obi-Wan: We must take them somewhere where the Sith will not sense their presence.
Yoda: Split up, they should be.
Bail: My wife and I will take the girl. We've always talked about adopting a baby girl. She will be loved with us.
Obi-Wan: And what of the boy?
Yoda: To Tatooine. To his family, send him.
Obi-Wan: I will take the child and watch over him.
Yoda: Until the time is right, disappear, we will. Master Kenobi, wait a moment. In your solitude on Tatooine, training, I have for you.
Obi-Wan: Training?
Yoda: An old friend has learned the path to immortality. One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force... Your old master.
Obi-Wan: Qui-Gon?!
Yoda: How to commune with him, I will teach you.

 

They don't have to cover everything. But the movie should disabuse the audience of any notion that plot points set up by other movies have been forgotten. Not encouraging them to assume that it has or purchase further, external material.

Vader's pathetic posturing next to his master as he admires the proto-death star does not suggest that it's the start of a Jedi purge. Nor does the movie even suggest that there are any other surviving Jedi to be purged.

The truth is that Lucas eventually decided that the tragedy of Vader and the prison that making his tragic decision has place him in was the thing he wanted audiences to take away from the conclusion of his six part saga. So he discarded the "hunt" from the first half of his saga and sold it to the people who will go out an buy books to fill in what go left out.

What was Yoda's mission? Staying hidden and watching Luke for a long time from light years away across the galaxy (not possible according to the arguments for Obi Wan and Yoda not being detected and "hunted" like all the other Jedi we are to assume were hunted) it would appear.

Waiting 19 years until the time is right does not preclude a bit of finding out if any Jedi escaped order 66. But it appears that Obi Wan knows, somehow.

I'm sure it didn't take Yoda 19 years to learn Qui Gon's power. Or Qui Gon for that matter.

 

OBI-WAN: "I've re-calibrated the code warning all surviving Jedi to stay away."

YODA: "Good . . . For the Clones to discover the re-calibration, a long time it will take. To change it back, longer still."

He doesn't assume that they're all dead.You made that one up. He wouldn't have changed the message if he believed that and we do see his message later on.

OBI-WAN: "This is Master Obi-wan Kenobi. I regret to report that both our Jedi Order and the Republic have fallen, with the dark shadow of the Empire rising to take their place. This message is a warning and a reminder for any surviving Jedi: Trust in the Force. Do not return to the Temple. That time has passed, and our future is uncertain. We will each be challenged our trust, our faith, our friendships. But we must persevere, and in time, a new hope will emerge. May the Force be with you always."

We know from the changing beacon that the Empire did find out that the message had changed and thus the Sith went looking for them. This later formed the basis for "Rebels", as the Sith and the Inquisitors had set up various traps for the surviving Jedi and used it to take them down. The surviving Jedi are encouraged to hide, so that their knowledge survives.

YODA: "When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be. Pass on what you have learned."

Except for the whole changing the code.

This assumes that Lucas ever intended to show the Jedi Purge beyond Order 66. Even in his detailing the backstory of Vader's fall in 81, he never specified that we would see Anakin killing Jedi before his fight with Obi-wan. Just that he was responsible for it.

Obi-wan didn't know. He just took a precautionary step by changing the beacon. Something Yoda also agrees with. Yoda does find out that there were Jedi survivors when Ezra and Kanan enter the Temple on Lothal.

KANAN: "The kid's taking too long."

YODA: "Patience. Remember you nothing of your own training?"

KANAN: "Master Yoda! It can't be. I'm losing it."

YODA: "Losing? Lost. Yes. But what loss, hmm? The question, that is."

KANAN: "Master? How...how can this be?"

YODA: "Be not concerned with how. Know I am here because you are here."

KANAN: "Thank you, Master."

YODA: "Thank you? Hmm. Nothing have I done. Hmm. See you, I can. Before, I could not. Changed, something has."

KANAN: "I've taken on an apprentice."

YODA: "Apprentice? Hmm. And now Master are you? Of this decision, honest you must be"

KANAN: "I'm not sure of my decision to train Ezra. Not because of him or his abilities because of me, because of who I am."

Qui-gon never finished his training which is why he cannot manifest unless on a world with a strong connection to the Force. He could be heard, but not seen otherwise. Yoda had waited on the children, because they were there. They were known to the Jedi. They were Anakin's offspring and either one could be the key to stopping the Sith.

 

A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights

It's not necessarily "filling" a plot hole. It's expanding on the idea that in a genocide, there are always survivors.

 

That's not in ROTS The Supreme Chancellor it's in ANH.

And that's the problem. No that there is no hunting down in the prequels. Of course it was rather misleading for Lucas to state that the previous episodes in the saga would cover all the back story referred to in episodes IV-VI and for the Jedi hunt to not be included in that back story as told in the prequel trilogy.

What is perplexing, is that it's not even presented as a matter of any urgency or importance at the end of ROTS. Vader kills the younglings. Kills the separatists. Gets torched and suited. And now he's just a lap dog for the Emperor.

You would think that hunting the remaining Jedi (a claim made emphatically by Ben) would be the first priority of Vader and Palpatine. But it seems like they are resting on their laurels and unconcerned. The Jedi are history. It's their time now.Time to relax, apparently.

If there was a galaxy wide dragnet (since Vader and Palpatine cannot sense Jedi from across the galaxy and pinpoint their locations) then it would seem that Tatooine might be a specific place of interest. Don't you think? Just to narrow down the thousands of star systems. There's no natural reason that Obi Wan should be there. But it's better than a complete shot in the dark or blanket search of the entire galaxy. Or Perhaps Vader might have anticipated Obi Wan coming after him again at some point and would have tried to lure him there.

 

Tatooine is a barren wasteland, and would bring back fresh wounds of the life of Anakin Skywalker. I see absolutely no reason for Vader to go there looking for anything. Elaborate on that point, what would his motivation be in going there? As far as he knows, his family is dead and Obi-Wan is hidden out in the galaxy. Not to mention while they are trying to put a stranglehold on the galaxy they should probably keep the Hutts as an ally rather than intrude in their territory.

In regards to the closing scene of ROTS, I guess it's just how you view it. Even at the end of that scene we know at a minimum two very powerful Jedi in Yoda & Obi-Wan have escaped. I don't see that scene as meaning "well all the hard work is done let's relax Vader." They are looking across the stars, almost like explorers on a new conquest, though they have power, influence and momentum from the creation of the Empire; that is only the beginning; they are setting out to reshape the galaxy as Palpatine envisions it, under his complete control; which it is NOT yet as the war literally just ended a few hours ago.

When the founding fathers of any country create it and lay down the constitution; is that attitude "okay now that's over let's relax" or is it, "Okay we've crossed a huge hurdle, but now the real work begins"?

 

His motivation is to hunt down and destroy the Jedi,. Vader's raison d'etre, supposedly. He needn't go there himself. A legion of troops sent there ought to have flushed any Jedi out with Vader waiting for his prey to break cover.

I can understand if it was Obi Wan's strategy to hide somewhere that Vader might want to put behind him. I don't imagine Vader being dim enough not to anticipate this though. PT Anakin on the other hand...

The way I see it the Death Star represents the ideology. No community of Jedi to guard peace and justice. Just one single boot to stamp on those that upset the new order. In order to provide continuity with ANH, ROTS includes the new regime appearing to be settled in this way of life that only just becomes disrupted immediately prior to ANH. It gives no indication of the essential part of the transition to this state of affairs, the destruction of the Jedi, being a work in progress. It presents finality (at least to Vader and Palpatine's satisfaction) in that respect.

I guess it's a syndrome. At the beginning of the PT, the Jedi seem not to have too many qualms about collectively entertaining the need for a prophecy of Sith destruction to be fulfilled in order for much needed balance to be restored to the force, and the idea of the Sith already being extinct all at the same time. If Obi Wan is not to be taken literally (or even seriously) about the hunting down part (and EU stuff ignored - which is always easy), then the Sith complacency from the moment they assume total control is no different from the Jedi when they were in their "height" at the beginning of the PT.

 

He didn't need him to overthrow the galaxy. He could have just as easily done that on his own.

But Palpatine did want a successor. That much was clear. If the Rule of Two is to be followed, somebody is going to have to take his place when he's no longer able to rule.

Anakin's injuries and having to be put in the Vader suit pretty much stopped Anakin from being what he could have been, and robbed Palpatine of the successor he wanted. To me, that's part of why he urged Luke to kill Vader at the end of Return of the Jedi.

 

Tatooine was never a Republic world. The Jedi have never had a presence there, didn't have any allies, and in fact would be hunted even there with the multitude of bounty hunters probably trying to cash in on Jedi bounties from the Empire. I don't understand why you think Tatooine would be considered some sort of refuge for Jedi. In big wide galaxy with countless systems, I can see exactly why Tatooine would be nowhere on the Empire's radar, let alone Vader, who is constantly reminded by the Emperor that he needs to erase any remnants of Anakin and STOP his obsession with Obi-Wan and the Jedi.

 

Again, pay attention to the film. Obi-wan and Yoda had changed the code that would bring back any Jedi survivors to the Temple. There would be no reason to even activate that code in the first place, if Palpatine believed every Jedi was dead. Much less leave the 501st to stand guard for when they did show up. When the code is changed, Yoda states that it will take the Empire a while to realize that it was changed. Enough time for whoever is left, if anyone, to run and hide. There's no need to depict Vader and Sidious finding out the code was changed in the film. Lucas left it open like that because he never intended to tell that story.

"After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story—however many films it took to tell—was only one of thousands that could be told about the characters who inhabit its galaxy. But these were not stories I was destined to tell. Instead they would spring from the imagination of other writers, inspired by the glimpse of a galaxy that Star Wars provided. Today it is an amazing, if unexpected, legacy of Star Wars that so many gifted writers are contributing new stories to the Saga."

--George Lucas, "Splinter Of The Mind's Eye" introductory reissue, 1994.

Vader has no reason to believe that Obi-wan would hide on Tatooine of all places. Especially being home to Jabba, who would have had bounty hunters looking for any Jedi hiding there. Vader's sole motivation isn't hunting down all the Jedi. He did that over a fifteen year period, but he had other priorities. When Kanan and Ezra emerged and took out the Grand Inquisitor, then he went after them. When Ahsoka reappeared, he was told to send out the other Inquisitors to find her. He suspects Obi-wan might be alive, but has no idea where and thinks that these Jedi might know. Jedi like Kanan had changed their names and abandoned their uniforms. Some even abandoned their Lightsabers. By the time of RO and ANH, Vader believes that any Jedi threat that's left has been extinguished. All that has taken place is killing potential Jedi.

That was the point in showing the Jedi and the Sith suffer from arrogance. That's why Lucas went that route. The path to destruction can be born from arrogance.

 

OMG I agree with darth-sinister maybe I am wrong on this one...

 

And how would Vader know Obi-Wan was on Tatooine? In ANH Vader didn't sense Obi-Wan despite that his ship was above Tatooine, what makes you think he would think of Tatooine specifically when there are many other places to hide in the galaxy?
Tatooine was not part of the Republic at the time, it was a system controlled by the Hutts.

Palpatine in his victory over the Jedi grew increasingly complacent and overconfident, yep.

Palpatine: And the Jedi rebellion has been foiled.
The remaining Jedi will be hunted down and defeated. [...]
Misleading? Didn't we see part of it with Anakin leading the attack on the Jedi temple? It would have been misleading for those who assumed the PT story would be about the Jedi hunt and not about the rise and fall of one man.

 

Not sure if you're serious or sarcastic. But let me expand on this; Vader knows Obi-wan. Has fought and lived with him for thirteen years. In his mind, Obi-wan is a smart Jedi. So he would not go to some place that Vader or any other Imperial would look for him. He wouldn't go to Tatooine and he wouldn't go to Naboo, since they would look there first. Vader believes that if Obi-wan were to go anywhere, it would be some place like Dantooine or Jakku. Places well into the Outer Rim and remote enough to remain in seclusion. But because he doesn't know that he has a living heir, it never occurs to him that Obi-wan would go to Tatooine because of the Lars. That Obi-wan is cunning enough to hide in plain sight, in the one place Vader would dismiss due to the significance of Tatooine.

 

A. Why would they go there first??

B. Present evidence that they went there first.

Because Tatooine doesn't meet that criteria?

Exactly. Why in the hell would the Empire have any reason to think Tatooine was any more likely to have Jedi on it than any of the other millions of systems?

 

Can't believe the question is about Luke being hidden in Tatooine, to me it makes sense. The one that more at risk is Leia, she's more at risk for several reasons.

1. Her adoptive father is part of the Rebellion
2. He's a part of the Galactic Senate
3. Higher probably of her meeting the Emperor and getting sensed by Sidious
4. Her adoptive father's bold actions, brings more attention to her.
5. She's in one of the old core world's of the Republic.

 

Why is the OP even a question?
The opera scene alone explains this. Sith crave power, and no one is more powerful than Anakin+ready to be turned due to life circumstances.

 

They would go to Naboo because that's where Padme's remains are, but also her family. Vader would check to see if the people who Obi-wan had helped multiple times, would shelter him. Likewise, Tatooine is where Anakin is from and Vader would look to see if he had hidden himself there.

In both the old and new EU, Vader went to Naboo to examine Padme's body to verify that she was dead and that his offspring was as well.

They wouldn't. The point is that Vader wouldn't go there to look for Obi-wan, because that would be the most obvious place to go to, because he's from there. Vader believes that he would go to the least likely place to go to ground, when in reality, he wound up going there.

No one is questioning why he would want him. The question is did his plan hinge on Anakin becoming his Apprentice.

 

None of that has anything to do with Jedi or hiding. Vader would look for Obi-Wan on Anakin's home planet...WHY? What kind of line of thinking is that? Why wouldn't Obi-Wan go to his own home planet?

So he didn't go to Tatooine or Naboo first. He just went to Naboo at an unspecified time.

Right, because when Obama finally tracked down Bin-Laden he was hiding in downtown Chicago -- er, ah, wait no that's not right.

 

Not sure what the new EU says, but Obi-wan probably doesn't know where he was from would be my guess. Anyway, Vader would think that Obi-wan could go there since it was Anakin's homeworld and a place that he was familiar enough with, to go and hide, and that Vader wouldn't think that he would hide there.

He went to Naboo shortly after his last scene in ROTS, as I understand it. He didn't go to Tatooine because he wouldn't think that Obi-wan would be there, due to the obviousness of it all.

 

That makes no sense. Nothing about any of the films implies Obi-Wan doesn't know where he's from. Plus Obi-Wan had been to Tatooine ONCE for like 3 days; that does not make it a "familiar" place. Nothing obvious about it. Nothing about Tatooine screams "this is such an obvious Jedi haven that the Empire shouldn't even bother checking because we obviously wouldn't want to draw their attention here." That is some of the most ridiculous logic ever uttered.

...again, so he didn't go to Naboo or Tatooine first after his surgery. Case closed on that I guess.

 

It's a waste of time expecting any argument other than "they didn't, so they couldn't".

 

Nothing implies that he does know. If you're taken from birth, chances are you're not going to know where you're from. As to Obi-wan being on Tatooine, he was there for twenty four hours in TPM. And then again during TCW, when he and Yoda came to Tatooine after Anakin and Ahsoka returned Jabba's son to him. The point is, he knows Tatooine. He doesn't know his own homeworld. And it is a place where Vader lived and had been back to twice during the war. Vader believes that if Obi-wan and only Obi-wan would go to hide some place, it wouldn't be his home world.

As to when Vader went there, the point is that he went there.

 

No, you said Tatooine/Naboo would be the first place he would look. That was the point. And on that point you were wrong.Where's you're "moving the goal post" GIF?

If Obi-Wan was raised from infant hood on Coruscant, he's from there. Where you're from isn't literally where you were born; it's used to refer to the place you grew up.

Vader absolutely NEVER said/thought that Obi-Wan wouldn't go to Tatooine. Unless you can quote a work that says otherwise, let's cool it with the fan fiction.