PT Did Palpatine Even Use/Need The Force To Conquer the Galaxy?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by GeneralCeel, Feb 16, 2012.

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  1. GeneralCeel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2005
    star 2
    Sure Palpatine is the biggest badass in the galaxy, but I?ve been wondering if his manipulation of The Republic during the Prequels was made possible because of his strength in the dark side, or if perhaps it was merely his great understanding of what makes people ?tick? (fear, greed, etc) that allowed him to execute the greatest con ever devised.

    Right now I?m leaning toward the possibility that Palpatine could (and mostly did) accomplish this feat though ingenuity, rather than the force. And I?d argue that he could have made himself Emperor even if he had no knowledge of the force.

    I have quite a bit to say on this subject, but I?ll let you ladies and gents get the ball rolling while I sleep?
  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm about a quarter of the way through the Darth Plagueis novel and it addresses this. From what I've been able to tell so far, Plagueis taught Palpatine the skill of being a patient opportunist, keeping an eye on events and playing his chess pieces just right. But Palpatine had a natural affinity for politics.

    So I'd say he would have gotten pretty far even without the Force. Whether he would have become Emperor, I don't know. But according to Wookieepedia, Palpatine's political philosophies were being taught in universities all over the Republic even before he became Chancellor.
  3. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    The Force definitely helped him. In AOTC, Yoda and Mace Windu acknowledge that the Jedi's ability to sense things has been shrouded by the Dark Side. If not for that, they might have stood a better chance of detecting Palpatine's scheme.
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  4. Jedi-Master-Vader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2003
    star 1
    Of course he needed the force.

    How else would he'd been able to prevent Mace and Yoda from thwarting him just before and after Anakin's turn to the dark side??
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  5. GeneralCeel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2005
    star 2
    Had he not resorted to his lightsaber all Mace and Yoda could have done is arrest him. In response to that his followers in the Senate would have passed another law in his favor....
  6. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    It wouldn't be necessary to have the Force. A few wealthy Senators could have secretly ordered a clone army for the Republic, been in league with a Seperatist army just like in the films, created a war, forced the Jedi into accepting the clone army, initiated Order 66 just as we saw, and then ousted or assassinated Valorum at their leisure, and then put someone sympathetic in the Chancellor's chair, or nominated a member of their little conspiracy to declare himself Emperor.
  7. MandalorianDuchess Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2010
    star 3
    Sounds plausible enough, in theory - but that wouldn't have made as interesting a story, imho.

    I'd just guess that as a Sith lord, it was *particularly* easy for Palpatine to manipulate those around him, particularly clouding the perception of the Jedi Council. Much, much easier than it would have been for any conspirator(s) who were not Force-sensitive.
  8. GeneralCeel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2005
    star 2

    I only bring this up because, the more I think about it, we never get any physical indication that Palpatine is using the force to accomplish his ends, not until Mace and company attempt to arrest him.

    When he manipulates Jar Jar into voting for the military creation act, we don?t get so much as a wave of the hand to indicate that he?s using a mind trick.

    He doesn't appear to use the force to convince Padme to move for a vote of no confidence in the old chancellor.

    He manipulates the separatist leaders with promises that play to their greed.

    He sews doubt in Anakin

    He obviously has the loyalty of thousands of senators, and has exerted his influence over the courts. I think a lot of people have the misconception that he?s using his powers to make this happen. But how would that be possible right under the noses of JedI who can sense the force?

    Yoda says ?the dark side clouds everything,? but again, I think a lot of people falsely assume this means Sith have the ability to ?shield? their powers from the JedI.

    I tend to think the reason why the JedI are unable to sniff out Palpatine, even when they know something ?doesn?t feel right,? is that Palpatine isn?t using the force at all.

    Perhaps the flaw of the JedI, along with overconfidence, is their dependence on the force..
  9. MissPadme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    I view Palpatine the same as Yoda; someone who uses the full extent of his power sparingly. Of course, for Yoda, it's out of a philosophical reservation using power. For Palpatine, it's all tactical. He'll reveal himself when he's good and ready, otherwise he relies on subterfuge and manipulation.

    --MissPadme
  10. MandalorianDuchess Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2010
    star 3
    The beauty of it, imho, is that it could be precisely that... and then again, it could be the opposite - he is using it, in a way that the Jedi can't detect. The movies don't really seem interested to spell out all the answers; this is one that is (imho) completely open to interpretation. You can make of it what you will, and you won't be wrong.
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    According to Darth Plagueis, they do.

    This has traditionally been my viewpoint, but I think it's possible that both approaches could coexist in some way.
  12. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Indeed, Palpatine does have the ability to hide his own powers from the Jedi. By necessity, the Sith need to operate in secrecy, or else they would be overwhelmed by the Jedi. So Palpatine did cultivate the ability to hide in plain sight over his decades of Sith training.
  13. GeneralCeel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2005
    star 2

    Hence why I don't read much EU.
  14. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Your loss, then. Personally, I can't understand why someone wouldn't want to learn everything they can about the franchise.
  15. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
  16. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    So some stupid things totally negate the rest of it?
    [image=http://www.sabotagetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/jar_jar.jpg]
    I guess you don't like any of the movies then, either.
  17. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
  18. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    #3 and #5 are actually inaccurate. The Vong weren't outside the Force; they were stripped of the Force due to their barbaric ways. And the "there is no light or dark" thing is one person's opinion, and that one person just so happened to be a Sith and was using that logic to attempt to seduce a Jedi over to the dark side. Plus, it wasn't the EU that had Maul survive; the Clone Wars TV show did that.

    As for the rest, they don't "ruin" Star Wars. There are countless stories that don't involve those plot lines, so if you don't care to read about them, you've got plenty of other options to read. The rest of the EU is still good.
  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Furthermore, there are many more books - including recent ones, even ones released this year - which directly contradict the above Force revisionism. One author isn't the whole EU, and one author ( unless that author happens to be named "George Lucas" ) doesn't have the power to unilaterally throw out the sides of the Force. Sorry, Stover fans.

    Also, I find it funny that articles like these are calling "Maul returns with robo-legs" an EU thing. It's now T-canon, maybe even G-canon!
  20. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Hell, I wrote a fanfic back in 1999 that had Maul returning with robo-legs. Of course, that fanfic also featured Maul's original legs running around kicking people....
  21. MandalorianDuchess Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2010
    star 3
    Um, well... it's an interesting concept. I kinda got a kick out of that. ;)
  22. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    *Palpatine waves hand* You want to donate to my Super-Pac.
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  23. GeneralCeel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2005
    star 2

    My issue with the EU is when it seeks to give conclusive answers to all of the mysteries of the films.
  24. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    That is something I just don't understand. Each successive movie answered some mysteries from the previous movies. ESB answered who Luke's father is, ROTJ answered why Ben lied about it, TPM answered where Anakin and Threepio came from, AOTC answered how the Clone Wars began, and ROTS answered how Anakin turned to the dark side, how the Jedi were killed off, how the Empire was born, and how Obi-Wan and Yoda survived and went into hiding. I don't see how the EU providing answers to other mysteries is any different from this.
  25. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    Oh, the films answer the questions, the problem is that the EU wants to ruin everything that USED to involve using your imagination. It's like they're sitting around a room brainstorming, "Hey, remember when Han and Leia were talking about the bounty hunter they ran into? That needs a story! That bartender? He needs a story! That bounty hunter with the toilet paper on his head? He needs a story! Remember those Bothan spies they talked about dying in Return of the Jedi? We need more of them. And better yet, let's make them an entire race of spies! Because if someone comes from a spy race, I'm sure everyone will trust them and they'll be able to infiltrate the Empire!"

    Doesn't that sound stupid? Wouldn't it make more sense for the Bothans to be a race of musicians, so that they can gather intelligence without anyone knowing, because they're trusted to sit back and play music? But no, we see Droopy McCool playing an instrument, so obviously he comes from a race of musicians. And Boba Fett is a bounty hunter, so we obviously must create an entire cliched clan of Klingon space-viking bounty hunters, complete with "tough chicks" in Boobie-Fett armor.

    See, the EU takes a little bite of something that was interesting in Star Wars, and runs it into the ground by repeating it over and over and over again. Do we really believe that all smugglers come from the same place, and wear the same vest and pants? Are these issued or something? Doesn't Anakin's turn from the Dark Side mean nothing if others have done it before? Wouldn't Yoda and Kenobi say, "Well, it's possible, lots of people have fallen to the Dark Side and come back!"
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