PT Did Palpatine Even Use/Need The Force To Conquer the Galaxy?

Well, why shouldn't there be stories about Dengar? Explain exactly why you feel a story about Dengar totally ruins everything about Star Wars.

And the Bothan race is not a race of spies. If you would read the EU, you would know this. How about you actually do some research before you make assumptions.

Bothans are not all spies, and Kitonaks are not all musicians.

This is just so totally wrong I don't even know where to begin.

Those things are still interesting.

Where does the EU say that all smugglers come from the same place? And where does the EU say that they all wear the same vest and pants?

Anakin's turn means exactly what it means. Whether or not others have turned back, or will turn back in the future, has nothing to do with Anakin's turn. There is nothing unique about Anakin's turn, but that doesn't make his turn any less important.

 

Of course Anakin's turn was unique. It had never been done before. That's why Yoda and Kenobi were adamant that Luke must kill him, and that there was no return from the Dark Side. If turning back from the Dark Side was like, say, getting over an addiction to heroin, then Anakin's fall would be no big deal.

You see, when turning back from the Dark Side of the Force is just a 12 step program, it kills the entire point of the films. When the Sith just pop back a hundred years after Endor, it ruins everything about Vader killing Sidious and ending the Sith line forever. When the Emperor turns around and comes back in some cloned body, it kills the films.

When you allow someone that was bisected with a lightsaber to come back with robot legs, not only does it ruin a great film moment, it's just embarrassing.

 

Where does it state that turning back from the dark side had never been done before? Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't believe Anakin could be redeemed, that's all. And other Sith Lords appearing in the future does not ruin anything about the movies, either.

Again, the EU didn't resurrect Maul. The Clone Wars TV show is not EU.

 

Are you serious? The Clone Wars TV show is the very definition of EU. In fact, it is now dictating the direction of the EU. The comics and novels will simply have to follow it's lead. The games and cartoon are now more popular than the comics and novels. Maul coming back was just a "what if" Infinities, but not anymore. It's coming to the cartoon, and has already been retconned in the latest TPM novelization, where as Maul is falling to hid death, he's thinking about how he can continue to live, or something equally contrived. There are more Maul comics and novels coming, and this will be the new, retconned storyline.

I guess the author doesn't really realize what happends when you are bisected with a sword. It's not quite like losing an arm or a leg. See, you're spine is severed, your kidney's are cut in half, your stomach and small intestine and lungs and liver are ruined. It's pretty severe.

I'm waiting for them to put Count Dooku's head in a Futurama-style bowl and stick it on General Grievous' body.

 

Palpatine was constantly using hte force to look into and read the future to give him an advantage. So he knew or had an idea that if he wanted something to happen what he'd have to do to make it happen it. Yes, being strong int he force did help him greatly in taking over the Republic.

 

Why was Anakin's fall unique? In Lucas's backstory for the Sith, they were created by a Jedi who split from the order and feel to the dark side. Count Dooku was a Jedi who feel to the dark side and became a Sith. He (Lucas) also created the lost 20, so alogn with those 2 there, were 18 other Jedi who turned. What made Anakins unique?

 

Anakin's fall wasn't unique, his turn back was unique. Don't you think that if it were common for Sith Lords a thousand years ago to be turned back to the Good Side with a bouquet of flowers and some sugar cookies, that Kenobi and Yoda wouldn't have completely written him off? Luke swears up and down that he can sense the good in him. Their response? It's basically, "Forget it kid, he's lost to the Dark Side. You have to kill him, even though he's your father. He's beyond redemption".

Qui-Gon discovering immortality, and teaching it to Yoda and Obi-Wan, shows that he was on the right path, and that the traditional, detached, ascetic Jedi of the Council were not. Qui-Gon was unique in his approach to the Force: compassion and wisdom, rather than dogma and doctrine. Luke is like him, he relies on his love for his father, rather than allowing his hate (as well as Yoda's and Kenobi's) to guide his actions, and ultimately condemn him.

We can assume that he will also become a "Force ghost" without assistance from Yoda or Kenobi, just as Anakin does. This is new stuff. It's unique. It's groundbreaking. No Jedi had done it before, or at least come back and told anyone about it. No Sith Lord has ever died and returned immediately as a ghost that can commune with others.

Make it happen before, and it destroys the story. It would be like writing an 8th Harry Potter book, where we find out that, four thousand years ago, it was commonplace for people to create multiple Horcruxes, have curses bounce-back because of a mother's protection spell, etc. It would ruin the Harry Potter story, because you'd be thinking, "You know, Voldemort probably should have known about all this".

 

Lucas said Anakin becomes a Force ghost with assistance from Yoda and Kenobi.

 

I guess they "intercepted" him or something? Because they certainly didn't spend any time with him. The films give the impression that Qui-Gon and Anakin figured it out, Kenobi and Yoda had to be taught.

 

Whoa - who says the Lost Twenty went dark? They were Jedi who left the Order. Dooku was just one of 20 BEFORE he surfaced as the visible head of the CIS. (Makes one wonder if his bust was removed?)

Can anyone present a citation for the above?

 

Yeah, the Lost Twenty weren't all Sith Lords/dark siders. As far as we know Dooku is the only one.

Anyway, to get back to the OP's question: Yes, I believe he did. The continuity of the Republic ultimately relied on the Jedi being willing to use force to keep it intact; assuming Palpatine's plan was the same, it would ultimately have come down to a physical confrontation between the Jedi and Palpatine. One which Palpatine would almost certainly have lost were it not for his Force powers. Not to mention that the Jedi's main weapon, the ability to see the future, would not have been useless against a Forceless Palpatine. They'd have seen his involvement in Naboo, manipulation of the Seps, etc. It's arguable he wouldn't even have made it to the Chancellory with the Jedi ability to see the future still in play. Ultimately only a Sith Lord-and an awingly powerful one at that-would have been capable of overthrowing the Republic.

 

As mentioned previously, Palpy had to utilize the Dark Side to cloud the minds of the Jedi in order to secretly carry out his plans. The scene in Palpy's office in AOTC where Yoda gives him a sideways glance always seemed to me a clue that the Jedi don't quite trust the Republic leader but they have no concrete evidence he is a bad guy.

Also, despite the fact the Emperor could have the clones kill the Jedi when they were on remote planets, I doubt the clones alone (or any non-force users) could have overtaken the Jedi Temple. Palpy needed a powerful person to accomplish that task and therefore he needs Anakin's/Vader's help. He is able to seduce Anakin to the DS by promising him he could save the one he loves through Sith teachings Palpatine learned from his previous master.

Finally, after taking over the galaxy Palpy would need the Dark Side to defeat the Jedi who survived Order 66 and would be coming after him.

That being said, it is impressive that he is able to accomplish most of his objectives without using the Force.

 

Good points, DarthBoba and VadersPappy.

This is why Yoda's closing lines in AOTC always give me the chills. "The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen... begun, the Clone War has". Which of course is followed by an even more chilling moment: Palpatine looking over his brand new troops, knowing full well he only has to wait until the right moment to give Order 66.

 

LOL, no. The EU is the novels, comics, games and reference books. The TV show is not EU. Official levels of canon.

 

is it a law you have ackoweledge the EU in the part of the boards called Films


Sith_rising doesn't like the EU, so what?


stop force feeding it.

 

Well, if you don't incorporate the EU into your discussions, those discussions will get rather stale. The movies have been out for a long time, and pretty much everything from those movies has been discussed ad nauseum. The EU is the official continuation of the stories told in the movies, so there's really no reason to reject it.

 

thank you for answering, my post was a bit harsh, so I apologise


as for the thread:

wasn't Palpatine concealing his true face with the force?

 

Seemed easy enough in Battlefront II...

According to Insider, yes. But there's been overwhelming pushback to that idea in fan circles and C-canon has recently capitulated, inconsistency with ROTJ notwithstanding. Color me not pleased.

 

There NOTHING in the movies to indicate that Qui-Gon's approach to the force was vastly different then the councils, at least to point you're making it out to be. Hes was a Jedi who followed the Living Force, and he was far from the only one. While he'll fight/argue with the council about things (training Anakin for example), he didn't flat out ignore them, at the end of the day he FOLLOWED what the Council told him and told Anakin he wasn't allowed to train him. Qui-Gon doesn't rely on love for anyone to do anything, nor do Yoda or Obi-Wan use hate to guide their actions. Its also not the dogma or doctrine of the council that leads to the Jedi's downfall, its one Jedi's refusal or inability to follow it. If anything, Anakins turn proves the Jedi "dogma and doctrine" was correct.

Doesn't Lucas say in the RotJ commentary that Anakin becomes a Ghost because he is the choosen one. Hes just speical, he is able to do it?

Wouldn't Darth Ruin have been a member of the lost 20 who also became a Sith (well in case, created the Sith).

I like some of the EU, but a lot of it just plan bad (a Sith species? How many times has the Republic been over thrown or destoryed by the Sith? How many times were Han and Leia's children kidnapped? etc....) and/or contridicts whats in the Film or TV shows (ie - from Lucas). There are lots of reasons to reject large portions of the EU. The Darth Plaguis book, which Lucas did have input on, and is designed to fit with what hes done before is something thats good and I would say is/should be an offical continuation (its almost like Episode .5, and a CG or animated movie would be fantastic). But other parts should be rejected and/or forgotten. How many stories are there about the "Old Republic" fighting wars, yet in PT Lucas says there hasn't been a full scale war before. According to the creater of all this, the Sith order is only 2000 years old etc...

Doesn't Lucas say in the RotJ commentary that Anakin becomes a Ghost because he is the choosen one. Hes just speical, he is able to do it?

Wouldn't Darth Ruin have been a member of the lost 20 who also became a Sith (well in case, created the Sith).

I like some of the EU, but a lot of it just plan bad (a Sith species? How many times has the Republic

 

What is wrong with there being a Sith species? The origin of the Sith is that some rogue Jedi splintered off from the Republic and conquered some outlying planets that hadn't been explored yet. They encountered the native Sith species, conquered them, and thus became Dark Lords of the Sith. Over time, the Sith species died out, and the Dark Lords became more commonly known as Sith Lords, or just plain Sith. What about that doesn't make sense?

Nothing in the EU contradicts the films, the TV shows* or Lucas.

Every bit of the EU is an official continuation of the films. There is no reason to reject any of it, because quality is not an indicator of something's official status. The only thing that matters is how LFL classifies each body of work.

 

The Sith Species is a dumb idea (is there a Jedi species out there?) that contridicts Lucas's history of the Sith.

Lots of things in the EU contridcts the movies and Lucas. Just one example off hte top of my head - Rogue PLanet says all the Trade Federation battle droids were folded into the Republic Army - ther eis at least 2 things wrong with that statement.

Not every bit of the EU is an offical continuation, thats why they have different levels of canon and why Lucas has said the EU is a seperate universe then his. LFL has ALWAYS said that what Lucas does trumps anything else (ie - Boba Fett DIED in RotJ, any book were he shows up after that is wrong), and he has trumped big sections of the EU.

 

That doesn't contradict Lucas' history of the Sith, and it is not a dumb idea. There is not a Jedi species.

Why don't you actually READ Rogue Planet. There was an official court order for the Trade Federation to disband its armies, but they kept on delaying the actual assimilation due to Palpatine wanting to keep them around.

Yes. Anything which is not canon is not an official continuation, but that is a very, very small list. Every bit of the EU that does not have an Infinities label is C-canon, even the ones that have Boba Fett surviving.

Lucas has not said the EU is a separate universe than his. Please don't take quotes out of context.

Nothing in the EU has been trumped. I invite you to look at the Official Canon Levels. Something on a higher level trumps something on a lower level only when there is a direct contradiction that cannot be retconned. Boba Fett does not fall under that category.

 

No, in fact he said the exact opposite.

It doesn't contradict anything in Lucas' Sith history, and the Sith species appeared in a comic timeline from the 90s that was partially informed by initial Lucas input, for whatever that's worth.

 

I know there is not a Jedi speices, just point out how dumb the SIth species is. ANd yes it does contrict Lucas story - the Sith were created 2000 years before the movies by a Jedi who left the order and became Darth Ruin. No Species, not 4000-6000-8000 year history, no Hyperspace war etc...

I did read it, and it say the Trade Federation droids were folded into the Republics ARmy. Even if you're going to say they avoided doing it for 10 years, THERE IS NO REPUBLIC ARMY FOR IT TO BE FOLDED INTO. ANd as I said, thats just one example off hte top of my head.

They had create "C-level" cannon because other Levels are more important, named what comes from Lucas, the movies and the tv shows. Like Fett dying, which according to the rules LFL has set up TRUMPS any story about him living, which means hes dead. If you want to say otherwise, go over the EU forums and keep it out of this one. And yes, Lucas did say it was a seperate universe, again accept the facts.

There are lots of direct contridicts. The problem, and why Star Wars contunity is such a mess, is that LFL and the fans rarely follow their own rule. When Lucas changes something and contridcts something, rather then tossing whats been changed they come up with ever more convuled ways to make it all fit. To follow the "rules" as LFL has set out, once Lucas says something thats it. Hes said Boba Fett is dead, he killed him, so any noval or work post RotJ with Boba Fett didn't happen, the Sith are only 2000 years old etc...


In July 2001, Lucas gave his opinion on the matter of what is canon in Star Wars during an interview with Cinescape magazine:

"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe?the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."

THere oyu have it - the EU is a parallel universe.

 

That does not contradict Lucas' story. The original Sith came into existence thousands of years before Darth Ruin.

The Republic did not have a standing army, but individual planets still had their own militia. So whenever a threat arose, the Republic could co-opt forces from individual worlds to help deal with that threat. That's the Republic "army" you speak of.

Lucas accepts the fact that Fett has survived. Whether or not he said he was dead in the past is irrelevant. Lucas did not say the EU was a separate universe.

There are zero direct contradictions. Star Wars continuity is not a mess.

Look at the date of that quote. It is severely outdated. The EU is not a parallel universe. It occupies the SAME universe as the movies. There is only one Star Wars universe. Accept it and move on. Fett is alive, there were Sith prior to Darth Ruin. That's how it is according to LFL. They decide what is canon or not, not you.