Did Palpatine throw away his saber on purpose?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by HevyDevy, Jun 7, 2011.

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  1. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 3
    The duel with Mace ends when Mace kicks Palpatine down and Palps loses his saber out the window.
    Did you read this as intentional because Anakin is about to arrive? Or was it a legitimate mistake?
    Also, what about his cowering like an old man directly after that? Of course the surrender a bit later is for Anakin's benefit, but what about when Anakin isn't there yet? I get the impression he wanted Mace to feel like he had won, so the events could play out like they did.
    Also, I find it curious that Mace's saber is lost out the same window a couple of minutes later. And they both simultaneously broke that window, perhaps both planning to throw each other out?
  2. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    You decide, as the rest of us do.
  3. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 3
    Well that kind of takes the fun out of it...
    Personally I think Sidious dropped it on purpose. But was he really scared...
    And seeing Mace's saber fly out always seemed very symbolic to me, besides the logical reason that without a saber he can't defend himself.
  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    According to the commentary Palpatine did not lose the saber fight on purpose.
  5. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 3
    I agree with that, maybe the wording of my initial post was too strong. He does look tired when Anakin arrives. But I kind of meant it was both. He's outplayed by Mace to that moment, but when he's spent he throws his saber away conveniently. I dunno actually.
  6. ILuvJarJar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2008
    star 6
    Mace is one of the best swordsman of the order. Disarming a foe, even Palpatine should be easy for him. I really doubt that Palpatine lost his saber on purpose. I doubt he was 100% Anakin would turn, so he had to be somewhat fearful that Mace might succeed in killing him. Palpatine in a man of high intelligence and wouldn't be that foolish to just expect Anakin would absolutely turn.

    However, he did fake being as weak as he was, when using force lightning against Mace.
  7. DARTH_DEEZY Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 1
    "The Sith had moved past using light sabers, but we continue to do so if only to humiliate the Jedi"
    -Darth Sidious in Dark Lord

    I know it's not relevant to the question being asked...I just always wanted an excuse to post that quote
  8. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    oh wasn't it much more fun when you could watch films and draw your own conclusion to what happened before all these "commentaries" came out on DVDs?

    the scene was a complete mess to begin with, originally Palpatine had Anakins lightsaber, then McDiarmid admitted he wasn't comfortable with fighting what so ever, a point picked up by Gillard to which Lucas said out "you can't change Ian, you've got to change the fight"

    anyway, draw your own conclusion to what happened,

    Mace fans will always make out he was the best Jedi in existance while Palp fans will make him out to be "the force manifested into human form he's that powerful" neither are correct


    to me, I think it was too conveniant that he lost his lightsaber at that given point,

    had Jackson hadn't demanded that he wasn't "going to go out like a punk" then I think the outcome would have been different.

    That's the whole point of REVENGE of the SITH

    everyone was a punk to him.


  9. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Just like Palpatine wasn't really kidnapped at the beginning of ROTS, he didn't really lose to Mace.
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    This. Faking his weakness later, as the film proved, does not mean he threw the saber fight. As Lucas says, he was overpowered, which coincidentally matches what we see in the film: Mace using a move that Palpatine couldn't have planned for. If Mace had just gone on swinging his sword as usual, I doubt Palpatine would have just thrown his own weapon out the window. Lucas also said that Palpatine was really trying to destroy Mace before feigning weakness. Mace vs. Palpatine in ROTS appears to be the equivalent of a certain interpretation of AOTC: that Palpatine must have planned everything, which would seem to include things like Obi-Wan befriending Dex, Dex finding a saberdart on Subterrel, the attack on the landing pad being unsuccessful, etc. But Palpatine is not really the guy with the master plan which predicts all events to the last detail. He's the guy with the malleable master plan which adapts to changing circumstances, the guy with the backup plan. Mace's disarming of Palpatine at least looks legitimate in the film, which is more than can be said for Vader's loss in ROTJ, where he seems to deliberately get himself into position to be literally disarmed. Also, the timing of Anakin's arrival can work both ways. Mace is obviously Force-sensitive ( in the EU he's into shatterpoints ); he may have sensed Skywalker's imminent arrival and thus chosen the moment to make his move.
  11. Drewdude91 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2011
    star 2
    Well he was legitimately "kidnapped" if you watch TCW (the old miniseries). Grievous definitely thought he was legitimately capturing the Chancellor. He didn't know the truth about Palpatine, only Dooku did. And I disagree with the commentary about Mace, I think Palpatine threw that fight. If you watch his fighting when you compare it to the fight with Yoda, he fights much better against Yoda than Windu.
  12. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Yes, that was Palpatine's plan to begin with.
  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    This. And about Mace and the shatterpoints: in the ROTS novelization, he recognizes, while Anakin is still in the Council chambers, that Anakin is the shatterpoint, and it shocks him.

    Palpatine knew how to play whatever hand he was dealt.
  14. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Right, it was a real kidnapping from Grievous' perspective; he was directed to do so by Dooku, who in turn was directed to orchestrate this by Palpatine himself. Outside the movies, I believe the LOE novel mentions that Grievous is impressed by how easy it is to get into the Chancellor's office, noting that Dooku has even given him correct door access codes, etc.

    And while I agree with others that said that Palpatine is a master at adapting to the situation at hand (plan B, C, and so on), he does still appear in this case to throw the fight. The only thing he seems to be genuinely surprised by is the kick to the face, which of course he adapts to. But the fight itself does seem to be reserved on his part. He has at least a couple opportunities when he could have taken Mace out but didn't... for example: Palpatine's saber was pointed at Mace's chest, only a few inches away from it, while Mace is holding both arms high in the air. If anything, that shot makes it look like Mace is trying to lose. :p
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I think we can chalk that up to "cinematic license" for lack of a more appropriate phrase. What I mean is that it is well known that Lucas decided to use Ian at the last minute and I think the fighting depicted in the film tends to reflect this. For example, Mace may look like he's trying to lose, but there's really no justification for Mace actually trying to lose, so in-universe we can be reasonably sure that he wasn't. In fact, when it comes to the issue of microanalyzing fights, there are moments in virtually all the saber duels in the series that are like this, when one or more of the combatants seems open to a strike which the opponent does not take. Maul/Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon is no exception.
  16. Drewdude91 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2011
    star 2
    Which one is considered to be canon? LOE or TCW miniseries? In the miniseries, Grievous entered Palpatine's office by smashing through a window.
  17. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    I also think this scene is a mess. I have the strong inclination that if George had been more fair and balanced with how he handled Jackson and McDiarmid it would've been completely different then what we ended up with. I feel like he catered unduly to Jackson while having little to no empathy for Ian. Why George gave Sam what he wanted when he seems rather a 'my way only' sort is puzzling.
  18. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Now I don't recall exactly how it happens in LOE. That part about access codes really sticks in my mind, but I also recall him breaking through a window... hmm. Even though I generally adhere to just the movies, I am curious in this case. Maybe someone here who has a better memory about the novel can shed more light on this.
  19. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I believe in the version of the script used in the script-to-screen starwars.com feature of the DVD it says that Mace kicks Palpatine as Palpatine appears to grow tired. Contrasting his "tired" appearance with the line "Power! Unlimited power!" made me think that even that point when the fight slows down and Mace presses the advantage was staged. Also, compared with the fact that Palpatine would run from Yoda but not from Mace, Agen, Saesee, and Kit makes me think he was awaiting them as part of a grander scheme to turn Anakin. If he was really just going to try and kill them, without setting up the situation that forced Anakin to choose, then he might as well have just called for reinforcements ahead of time to surround and kill the Jedi, and to expose their "plot."
  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Mace arrived sooner than expected, as stated in the film. Also, surrounding and killing the Jedi preemptively is not quite as easy or helpful as it sounds. For one thing, in the confined space of Palpatine's office, there's not much room for reinforcements. The events as they transpired in the film play into Palpatine's tale of "Jedi Rebellion".

    In the Lucas-edited ROTS novel, Palpatine uses a "dark surge of the Force" to try to blast Mace out the window as soon as it is shattered, and Mace barely saves himself. Though the details of the battle in the novel are different from the film version, the book makes it clear that Palpatine is legitimately trying to destroy Mace as Lucas said, and this emphasis survived the line-edit, while various other things did not. Also, Mace being able to press the advantage in the novel is portrayed as genuine due to Palpatine having to divert Force power to other things.
  21. ForceJumpAnakin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2006
    star 3
    If he still valued his life, Palpatine could've force halted Mace's final swing when it gets to an inch away while still crying "Ohh I'm too weak". If not, he assumes Anakin will eventually turn to the Dark Side, much like what he told Yoda, "you will not stop me, Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." His death would provoke his turn even more.
  22. vadersmyfather Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2005
    star 1
    Palpatine's saber was pointed at Mace's chest, only a few inches away from it, while Mace is holding both arms high in the air. If anything, that shot makes it look like Mace is trying to lose.

    I think the issue there is that Mace is enticing Sidious to lunge so that he can catch him off balance (which is exactly what happens if you continue to watch).

    See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM_nBvjpidE 52-55 seconds.
  23. vadersmyfather Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2005
    star 1
    If he still valued his life, Palpatine could've force halted Mace's final swing when it gets to an inch away while still crying "Ohh I'm too weak".

    It seems unlikely to me that he can continue to use his lightening for an indefinite period. While I don't believe that Sidious is weak as such, I think that he was in a position where he needed Anakin to break Mace's guard. There is an element of truth to his pleading in that he needs Anakin's help.
  24. vadersmyfather Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2005
    star 1
    I think the duels are in different contexts.

    In the first instance, Sidious needed to engineer a situation where they attacked him so that he could claim they had tried to overthrow the Republic. Running away prior to the fight was out of the question - he had to risk his life to provide evidence.

    In the second case, Palpatine had already assumed total control, there was nothing at stake.
  25. Darth Kruel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2000
    star 4
    Mace Windu disarmed Palpatine. Palpatine didn't just 'drop' his weapon on purpose or even lose it. Anakin just happened to walk in the office after Palpatine was defeated.
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