Did Palpatine's dilemma in replenishing apprentices really exist?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Sin, Mar 4, 2003.

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  1. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    I remember some time before AOTC came out, there were many, many discussion over whether the "rule of two" of the Sith were really true, and many other things concerning this.

    But also before AOTC, Lucas said that another underlying story within the Prequels was Palpatine's dilemma in having to replenish his apprentices.

    Now certainly when he lost Darth Maul, this was a dilemma, for apparently he did not foresee losing his prize that he himself had trained from youth, and what his apprentice meant to him as part of his plan to rule the galaxy.

    However, it has become quite apparent from the growing evidence post AOTC that Dooku came in league with him very soon after he left the Jedi order. And it was so soon afterwards that Dooku plays a part in the creation of the clones, in that he hired Jango. And the Kaminoans said the clones were ordered ten years before the time of the events of AOTC.

    So Dooku basically joined Sidious/Palpatine in the same year that he left the Jedi order, and quite possibly right after he left the Jedi order [face_shocked]

    So realistically Palpatine really did not have much of a dilemma in replacing Maul, and quite actually came out better with this former Jedi Master, in that he was a very charismatic leader as well as one of the most powerful Force-users. What a gem to have turned to the dark side and become a Sith, especially with him igniting the Clone Wars.

    Then will come Anakin Skywalker who will replace Dooku as his apprentice. But as we saw already in AOTC, Palpatine basically has Anakin within his grasp, as that Anakin honors his guidance and thinks he is a good man. Palpatine even has commented to him that he believes Anakin will become the most powerful Jedi ever.

    We hear the influence of these words come out almost verbatim from Anakin when he said.

    "Some day I will become the most powerful Jedi ever"

    After Dooku's death and some traumatic events to happen to Anakin, he will easily become Palpatine's new apprentice, and he certainly will not have to wait any period of time gaining him at his side.

    So for me, did the dilemma really exist for Palpatine? It appears to me that he actually had a easy time of gaining new apprentices, and the Jedi order provided him with two of its best and most powerful members.

    I wish I could find where Lucas quoted this, because the Prequel saga seems to contradict what he said in this regard.


    Darth Sin! :cool:
  2. Darth_Banal Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    star 6
    Lucas said that another underlying story within the Prequels was Palpatine's dilemma in having to replenish his apprentices.

    I seem to remember him making that type of comment somewhere on the AOTC DVD, either in the commentary or on the Featurettes. Have a look at those Sin.

    I don?t think he had a REAL problem finding new candidates. Like any good Sith, he was always on the lookout for a more powerful ally. But Sidious honestly thought that Maul would be able to defeat the Jedi in TPM, so his plans got a monkey wrench thrown into them there. But likely he had already been tempting or manipulating Dooku prior to those events, perhaps with the thought of Maul and Dooku having a duel to see who would continue as his apprentice.

    Of course, the problem with using Dooku as an example of how quickly Sidious could find a new apprentice is that GL apparently came up with Dooku after the events of TPM. This raises questions, then about how long Dooku was really a ?Sith-in-waiting? and how long it took to convert him. But from the timeline AOTC presents, it appears to have happened remarkably quickly.

    So it appears that throughout the saga, Sidious always kept a potential apprentice in his back pocket. If he?s smart enough to plot the downfall of the Republic, he can certainly ID potentially powerful allies and exploit them as necessary.

    Side Note: I was watching the AOTC deleted scenes introductions, and I was disappointed with GL?s explanation of why he cut the scene where Padme and Dooku meet after she is captured. He said it had been too long since we last saw Obi-Wan, and he wanted to show him again, how he?s doing, etc. So he changed the scene from Dooku trying to recruit Padme to the CIS to Dooku trying to recruit Obi-Wan to the Sith.

    I was blissfully thinking that scene mirrored the Vader/Luke recruit scene in ESB, but it turns out it was a scene shot more out of timing considerations than a desire to show Dooku as a true Sith: someone who is looking for powerful allies.
  3. Ret Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 1999
    star 6
    Yeah he really has no problem. I could see if Dooku didn't survive AOTC. Also it seems like he always has someone lined up.
  4. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    Exactly Ret, despite what Lucas presented concerning Palpatine's situation after losing Maul, it turns out that he solved whatever dilemma he may have had, starting with Dooku

    But as Banal hinted at, Palpatine gaining Dooku so soon after the events of TPM suggests that Palpy may have been courting Dooku in the same manner we saw him doing with Anakin in AOTC, and learning that they had meetings together during the interim between TPM and AOTC.

    Now in learning this possibility, I find it a little difficult to believe that Palpy was able to work on Dooku, as he did with Anakin.

    This possibility also brings up the question as to whether Dooku may have been in league with Palpy prior to him leaving the Jedi order.

    Nevertheless, I have wondered how Palpy was able to gain Dooku so soon after the events of TPM? The fact that they came together so soon does suggest that they had some sort of pre-Sith relationship that helped aid their Sith allegiance.

    I suggest if they did have some sort of relationship prior to their Sith alliance, it certainly involved their views on the political situation in the Republic.


    Darth Sin! :cool:
  5. Blackthorpe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2003
    star 3
    Did Sideous/Palpatine think that Maul could beat the Jedi? I'm not so sure that he did. I am of the opinion that pretty much everything that happened in TPM, and in AOTC for that matter, was all set in motion by Palpatine and went pretty much as he had planned. He may even have known about Anakin. Even if he didn't know of him, as soon as he heard of him and his midichlorian count, which I'm sure he heard of rather quickly as the new Chancelor, he adjusted his plans to make it so Anakin would eventually fall. This required taking out Qui-Gon, and leaving Obi-Wan to train him. At that point, he could have anticipated Maul dying, and even wanted him to, so that there would be room for Anakin. At that time, or soon after, he recruited Dooku as a temporary Sith, just to use him to get what he needs, and so that there is someone for Anakin to kill to make his journey to the dark side complete. That's kind of my take on it, anyway.
  6. Ret Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 1999
    star 6
    "Did Sideous/Palpatine think that Maul could beat the Jedi? "

    I imagine he thought Maul could take out Qui-Gon and Ben but at the same time it's obviously not that big a deal that Maul dies.
    Or he knew he would die and just sent him on a kamikaze.

    Either way I imagine Palps always had a new apprentice lined up and around that time knew Dooku could make a suitable replacement.
  7. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    I have no problem with Palpatine preparing just in case there was the possibility he did lose Maul. I personally believe that he did not think Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan could defeat him.

    But nevertheless, as far as Palpatine having a "ram in the bush" per se in that of Dooku; this even verifies that Palpatine actually did not have a dilemma in replenishing apprentices.

    If he was anywhere close to courting Dooku as we saw him doing with Anakin, then he basically had his problem solved before it occurred, and this is why Dooku became his apprentice very shortly after he left the Jedi order.

    I really wish we were able to get an idea of Palpatine and Dooku's relationship before the time of TPM, when Palpatine was still just a Senator.

    I am guessing their pre-Sith relationship revolved around talks about the corruption in the Senate, and this is where Palpy subtlely fed his ideas to Dooku.

    Maybe this is how Dooku became a political idealist.


    Darth Sin! :cool:
  8. Darth_Banal Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    star 6
    From sw.com Databank about Dooku:

    A strong-minded man, Dooku's ideas were often out of step with those of the Jedi Council, despite the fact that his former mentor, Yoda, held a lofty position in that governing body.

    Dooku was a political idealist. He felt that the Jedi weakened themselves by serving an institution as corrupt as the Republic.


    Likely Dooku was tempted much like Anakin. In Anakin's case, he felt he wasn't powerful enough to save his mother. Dooku likely felt he wasn't powerful enough to affect political change. Thus both seek greater power through the dark side.

    The statement "He felt that the Jedi weakened themselves..." seems to indicate Dooku felt that Jedi were above the Republic, rather than its servants. So pride likely has something to do with it.

    When did he leave the Jedi Order? I wonder if it had actually been before the events of TPM. Dooku said to Obi-Wan "it's a shame our paths have never crossed, Qui-Gon always spoke very highly of you." It seems to indicate that Dooku and Qui-Gon had contact without Obi-Wan present, thus a theory - the only contact Dooku and Qui-Gon would have had was social, not as part of their Jedi responsibilities, possibly since he'd already left the order.

    But at any rate, in the intervening years between TPM and AOTC no doubt Dooku spent much time in Sith training, as well as sparking the Separatist movement, as this entry shows:

    After his departure, he disappeared for years, re-emerging as a political firebrand fanning the flames of rebellion in the galaxy. In an alarmingly short time, Dooku rallied thousands of systems to his cause, building a growing Separatist movement that threatened to split the Republic.
  9. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    Lucas said that another underlying story within the Prequels was Palpatine's dilemma in having to replenish his apprentices.

    I wish that GL had followed through with this, but alas.
  10. Darth-Dispicable Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2003
    star 4
    I think that Palpatine honestly thought that Maul would do fine and was supprised by his demise. As for Dooku, I believe Palpatine knew of Anakin and used Dooku until Anakin was ripe for the picking. He just let the Jedi order train him, all the while feeding him with darkside rhetoric.
  11. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    But that is just what I am getting at. Palpatine no doubt already had a "ram in the bush" per se in Dooku, whether he was considered a true apprentice or just an interim until he gained Anakin; this pretty much says that no such dilemma existed with Palpatine having to replace apprentices.

    He loses Maul, but likely within weeks he gains Dooku, and he turns out from what we can tell a far more valuable apprentice/servant than Maul. So where does the dilemma exist.

    In EP III, we will see Palpatine lose Dooku, but within that same film and time period he will gain Anakin, which we all believe he desired before acquiring Dooku.

    So again, if Lucas says that this dilemma existed for Palpatine within the Prequel trilogy, this does not seem as though this was the actual case when viewing the films and how the story progresses.

    Darth Sin! :cool:
  12. Darth-Dispicable Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2003
    star 4
    I agree Darth Sin. Not only does it seem that Sideous has no problem gaining apprentices, but it almost seems by his own design.

    How else could we explain it? Each apprentice seems to completly fit his needs at the moment.

    Maul-powerful warrior, talented hunter. I still believe that Maul getting sliced was not planned. I think that Sideous planned on using Maul until Anakin was ready, and do all the political intrigue of starting a war by himself.

    Once Maul was gone. Dooku was an exellent politician, and as such a perfect choice to do all the annoying work as a coalition builder and war starter. Everything after that is history, he chooses Anakin who is more than capable of destroying the Jedi order.
  13. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    "Also it seems like he always has someone lined up."

    This os true but consider Palpatine's position after TPM. Now Supreme Chancellor, no time to train someone in private, no way to travel throughout the Galaxy, no way to much of anything in secret.

    He doesn't lack raw material in the form of frustrated, angry beings in the Galaxy. He lacks the time and the ability to maintain stealth which is needed to train them and that respect he lacks the ability to replenish his Apprentices.

    In that insiance, Dooku is the perfect choice. Someone already well trained for decades by the Jedi, immensely powerful, rich, well connected, super-mad at the Jedi and the Galaxy. Here is the apprentice that Maul could never have been: subtle, innovative, free-thinking, independant yet still able to follow a grand scheme and fill in the blanks between. Maul had no ability to operate without his Masters express orders. Can you imagine Maul running a war? [face_laugh]
  14. Pfft Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2003
    star 1
    I would have prefered for Sidious to begin Apprenctice Shopping in TPM. It would have given more umpf to Anakin's story and the whole 'mystery' jedi syndrome.
  15. Jedimaster_Prowl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 2000
    star 4
    I think there was more to Maul than we saw on film. He could have been a strategist equal to Admiral Ackbar. Sorry we didn't get to see him much of anything but fight.
  16. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    So many people think that Maul was all fight, and lacked any social or political skills.

    But I for one beg to differ. First of all, you have to look at his Master, in that of Palpatine. There is no doubt that Palpatine/Sidious is a master at manipulation and deceitful negotiating skills. I like to think he trained Maul in this arena as well.

    Secondly, the survival of the Sith demanded that the two individuals be not only great fighter/warriors, but also be socially and politically savvy.

    Lastly, though we did not get to know Maul to know whether he had these skills, one can look at Dooku and Vader. Now of course Dooku having been a Jedi, he had to learn the art of negotiations and diplomacy as part of their training. But he also was a very charismatic person anyway. So it was important for Palpy/Sidious to get someone like Dooku that possessed these skills and attributes.

    Then there is Darth Vader. It was quite apparent from the OT that Vader was not all fight. He was well rehearsed in diplomacy, negotiations, and manipulation. Of course Anakin was a Jedi, like Dooku that had to learn the skills for negotiations. But we also know that Palpatine helped shape Anakin's political views. In other words he was even training him in this arena as well.

    So why would he do so??? Because again, the Sith apprentice, as part of his value as a Sith and their cause had to be skilled in these areas.

    So with that said, I believe Darth Maul had been groomed in these skills as well. We just never got to see them, because he was "cut off"/killed before he could begin to move into this arena.

    I am one that believes that Maul was intended to do the very things that we saw Dooku do in AOTC in forming the war. I believe he possessed the skills necessary to do so.

    This was a major part of the dilemma in Palpy/Sidious losing Maul as an apprentice. Maul could not fight every Jedi to help the Sith achieve their goals, but rather as a leader of a separatist movement from the Republic.

    As a matter of fact, I believe in part that Maul was not just sent to Naboo to engage the Jedi in battle, but it was intended that after Amidala signed the treaty, he would then have begun to move into the arena that Dooku had in AOTC, as the leader of the Separatist.


    Darth Sin! :cool:
  17. Darth-Dispicable Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2003
    star 4
    I think that makes sense. We have to remember what the agenda of the Sith is, which is to destroy the Jedi order. A pure fighter cannot do this, he/she would have to be able to do something more significant that swing a lightsabre around.
  18. DarkFather13 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2002
    star 1
    Lets say that Dooku left the Order to begin the Separtist movement and had no desire to become a Sith and wanted no part of the Jedi. Nute Gunray then put him into contact with Sidious, who in turn convinced Dooku to use his hatred of the Jedi Order and beauracracy to good use by joining the his side politically and not the darkside. Only after the death of Maul did Darth Sidious convince Count Dooku to use his force training in the darkside.
  19. Perdition Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2003
    star 1
    Had Maul survived EPI, would he have been able to sway the corporations & worlds into joining the separatist movement? I say no.

    The guy was a monster, if you will. Unlike Palpatine, he was NOT a statesman, skilled in the language & webs of politics. Unlike Anakin/Vader, he was NOT trained in the Jedi temple, where, most certainly padawans learn the ways of government (being that they work in concert with the senate). Would Sidious have imparted knowledge of the machinations of politics upon Maul - yes. However, would Maul have CREDIBILITY in the eyes of potential separatists? Most likely not.

    Heck,would even Sidious himself have been able to sway "thousands of star systems to his cause"? In the eyes of these worlds' governments, he's, at best, an unknown; at worst, a possible criminal - NOT someone to enter into an alliance with. Sure, some would (as did the Neimodians), but would "thousands"?
    Only acting as Palpatine would he even hope to accomplish anything.


    Dooku, on the other hand, was a man of class and, most likely, comes with a great reputation (former Jedi master, political idealogue, etc.).

    This would make you think that perhaps Dooku was swayed/influenced by Sidious prior to his leaving the Jedi order (or the ultimate cause for his departure).
    Sidious became the proverbial 'straw that broke the camel's back'!

  20. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    I think it likely that Palp was going to try to corrupt whatever Jedi that might be useful to the dark side, regardless of whether or not he was going to train them as an apprentice. He was likely going to use Dooku as an ally, but with Maul's death, he went ahead and made him an apprentice. In either event, I'm betting he would have found a way to get Dooku's help, even if Maul had lived.
  21. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    Darth-Stryphe

    Good point! I actually like your thought that Sidious likely desired to have Dooku in some capacity while still having Maul as his apprentice if he had survived.

    I actually believe Dooku was intended at first to replace Nute Gunray as Sidious military commander and political negotiator

    As a matter of fact, I believe Dooku was going to be the forerunner for Tarkin and his position in ANH


    Darth Sin! :cool:
  22. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Yes, well, more like Tarkin, but not entirely. Palp's has no intention of Dooku surviving passed the end of the Clone Wars. Palp's can't afford him to.

    But about the apprentice, if anything, Palp had picked Anakin out to replace Maul, not Dooku ("We will watch your career with great interest"). Palp's knew Dooku would die and he'd need fresh blood, so-to-speak.
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