Lit Did Pellaeon Change?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Robimus, Feb 11, 2009.

  1. patchworkz7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2004
    star 4
    There's a rather large gap of time between TRUE COLORS, which amounts to an epigraph of him not liking one of his officers, to his feelings on clones in TTT. Heck, I would think that Order 66 and Operation Knightfall would have made many of the "mongrel" officers see the clones in a very, very different light.

    Thinking that these men are all individuals who are the same as any other tends not to stand up to the news that 99.99% of them gunned down their commanding officers at the uttering of a few simple words, not to mention his comments about fighting "mad" clones and things like the Kaminoan uprising and possible other clone related issues, such as the instability of the Spaarti cloning process that he may have been aware of.

    I think the comments about the OOU reasoning is fair, but we've also missed out on some rather large chunks of his IU life which could inform his feelings towards a great many things.
  2. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    What shortcomings? Vader pointed out the truth that "Force > Death Star", as later proved by Luke Skywalker, and then Motti insulted him. I don't believe the "power" of the Death Star would have been any more helpful in retrieving the stolen plans than Vader's "sorcerous ways", so Motti was just talking smack.

    And was promptly smacked down.

    I'm not sure why you're bringing this up, since ?Vader as competant vs Vader as incompetant? isn?t really the same debate. I also love big, bad, evil Vader. As opposed to the ?big, bad, evil... and very dumb brute Vader? Zahn and certain others give us.
  3. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Excuses Ulicus:p And I'm not actually trying to put down Vader but the idea's that the officers surrounding him simply loved him is far fetched given his track record.

    The fact is Vader failed to deliver the stolen Death Star plans, Tarkin foolishly discovered the location of the Rebel base. If these tasks were assigned to Vader he failed, period. Where was the guy to choke him for his incompetence? No different than Needa letting the Falcon escape, or Ozzel's screw up.

    There was a double standard and a hypocrisy to Vader's actions. Pellaeon and Thrawn had nothing to figure out(through Zahn), it's always been there.
  4. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Not so much, but then again, Needa knew the potential consequences; there were other options beyond serving in the Imp Navy, like Dodonna and the rest figured out.


    Additionally, Thrawn was known to kill people for mistakes of a similar nature; take the guy he had Rukh kill for letting Luke's X-Wing get away.

    My main gripe, really, is the Thrawn Trilogy's attempts to make Thrawn seem !awesome! and miles above Vader when they're really on the same moral level.

  5. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Hmm? Vader discovered the location of the Rebel base.

    Tarkin: I'm taking an awful risk, Vader. This plan of yours had better work.

    And it did work. I mean, not to the point of the Death Star blowing up the Rebels... but insofar as "finding the location of the Rebel base"? Vader succeeded.

    Whose idea is that, exactly? I don't recall anyone suggesting the above. The point being made was that Vader was an intelligent and effective commander who didn't, in most circumstances, approve of carelessly throwing away lives for the sake of doing it.
  6. BENSKYWAKER Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2005
    star 4
    Look, look look. I posted that the Sith threw their forces into the field and thats why Pellion didn't like them. Well yes that is wrong with Vader. Obviously Vader knew what he was doing. The Emperor I don't think he did, but alas not the point.

    Thrawn did kill one of his troops but it was because he was an uninvented idiot. The next guy if you recall lost Luke as well but had tried to do something clever and thus he lived. I think the scene was trying to show Thrawn knew people makes mistakes but he didn't tolorate incompetant personalities.

    Obviously Vader didn't tolirate incompetance either, and Vader did give second chances occasionally. Piett got one or two free-bees.

    I don't think you can compare Vader and Thrawn because Vader controlled through fear and authority while Thrawn earned the respect of his troops. I will admit Zahn did try to make his own characters as good as possible but can you blame him? He was trying to make characters that could compete with Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, Leia and Han. Thats not easy to do. All new characters are gonna be overshadowed unless you make them really really special. IE Grand Admiral Thrawn is born.
  7. patchworkz7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2004
    star 4
    I do think that the point some have made about how Vader was shown in Zahn's most recent book seems more than a bit off. He acted more like a petulant child to Mara Jade's cool as ice spy, which by that point Vader had learned how to play the grand game that Palpatine was running, and even saying he was upset about Luke seems...off.

    I think Luceno in DARK LORD and Traviss in her short Vader stories did a nice job showing a Vader who was evolving into his role and realizing what the stakes were and what the game was.

    People questioned the "Vader was loved by the common soldier" angle, but despite being a figure of fear, he targeted mostly officers whose incompetence cost Imperial lives and material, and he also was more than willing to jump into the fray himself as seen in any number of comics and books and in the movies.

    I think some people have a problem when incongruities between Vader at the start of the Empire and Vader during the GCW show up, because they are two different characters. When I started reading SoTE I wasn't sure about the portrayal of Vader, but by the time we got to the middle of the book and then his showdown with Xizor we saw that he was on top of the game the entire time. That fit with that era Vader. An early Vader it might not have fit.

    With the PT Vader lost some of his mystery and gained some humanity, which some fans may not like, but the important thing is that he's a much different character at all these various times of his life. The Anakin of AoTC isn't the one of RoTS and isn't the one of DARK LORD and isn't the Vader of ANH and that Vader isn't the Vader of post-ESB stories.

    He's one character that actually grows in massive ways throughout the saga, but it's hard to show that due to the limitations of and expectation we have of the character from our first experiences of him as the monster of ANH.
  8. BENSKYWAKER Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2005
    star 4
    I would have to agree to everything you've said here. =D= I didn't like the part about Vader and Mara either. But I completely agree that Vader is always changing. Just like any living character, and you add in the fact that he has had so, so many different author writing him. But well said.
  9. jSarek VIP

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2005
    star 4
    Thrawn didn't kill him for his mistake, but for his unwillingness to try other alternatives.

    When another character made a similar mistake in The Last Command, the result was quite different, because the guy made an attempt to think outside the box, even though it also failed:

  10. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Thrawn didn't kill him for his mistake, but for his unwillingness to try other alternatives.


    The bottom line is that Thrawn had him killed for failing. That's what significant.


    When another character made a similar mistake in The Last Command, the result was quite different, because the guy made an attempt to think outside the box, even though it also failed:



    And...so what? We know that Vader rewarded tactical innovation: Veers for one.

    Both of them executed people for incompetence and rewarded people for innovation; to claim otherwise flies directly in the face of both TTT and TESB.
  11. goraq Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    ,,The bottom line is that Thrawn had him killed for failing. That's what significant.,,
    Failing+rigid thinking=death
  12. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    And Needa's sheer idiocy in not even deploying fighters is what, exactly?

    He spared Piett because Piett was creative, and thought out of the box whereas Needa wasn't only strictly by the book, but he was a failure at that.

    So hagiography of Thrawn aside, how precisely do these two examples differ at all from Thrawn's examples?

    Or what of Thrawn physically assaulting his own men in TG? Very professional of him, I'm sure.

    Thrawn was every bit as arbitrary and capricious as Vader was--or if you want to call it exacting and demanding, we can do that too. The difference is that Thrawn was an unrepentant hypocrite about it; he couldn't prevent himself from talking down about Vader, while his little stooge watched by and admired how he had no ego.

    Please. The both of them were full of it.
  13. Havac Some Guy Who Moderates Lit

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    This is a Pellaeon thread, not yet another derailed-by-Thrawn-vs-Vader-arguments thread.
  14. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Ulicus: You seem to have missed earlier in the thread when it was suggested that Pellaeon didn't like Vader and Palaptine because he was incompetent. Then the defense of Vader's murderous actions in reguard to his killing of Imperial Officers.

    I never argued that Vader was incompetent either, but I do stand by my words that he recieved little punishment for his various mistakes, while Officers under his command did. This is why Pellaeon didn't like him.

    And Motti wasn't just talking smack. Vader's Star Destroyer captured the ship carrying the Death Star plans, then let two droids escape with those plans which lead to them falling into Alliance hands. Vader didn't get the job done, doesn't mean he's incompetent, but it does show that he holds his troops to a different standard than he holds himself. Which is his right, but it doesn't change that he failed.

    QFT on the Vader finding the rebel base though. My bad.[face_blush]

    Darth Boba: As Havac has mentioned we're talking about Pellaeon and his views on Vader. This has nothing to do with Thrawn, though Pellaeon didn't approve of Thrawn's killing either, even questions it in a round about way.

    Darth Boba mentioned:Happily, most of the EU seems to acknowledge that, despite Zahn's silly dislike of the man. Personally, I treat all of Pelly's strange, no-basis-in-other-canon statements as just Zahn trying to be smart.

    Pellaeon's statements do have basis in canon, Vader's treatment of Officers is legendary according to some sources. I disagree with the claim Zahn is trying to somehow twist Vader through Pellaeon's POV. Gilad's POV is solid based on events, it isn't fabricated. It's a style of command that he doesn't approve of. it's an element of his character that makes him stand out from Vader and Thrawn, and is central to his journey throughout the EU.

    Pellaeon doesn't even kill Flennic after the man trys to kill him. It's simply a part of his character. He doesn't believe murder is a command technique.:)
  15. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    It's worth pointing out that he probably developed those views as a defense mechanism, and undoubtedly feared death at Vader's hands on a constant basis. His views are very suspect.
  16. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Source?
  17. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    A source on what? His crippling incompetence, or his animus towards Vader's high standards?
  18. Grand_Moff_EXTREME Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2002
    I am actually interested in the stories where Pellaeon feared for his own personal safety around Vader. Is there an actual comic or novel where this is covered, or is this conjecture based on Vader's penchant for killing his underlings?
  19. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Yes I am.

    So, uhrm... I think Pellaeon did change! He's part of the great clone conspiracy! (Featuring Jaacen and Daaala also)
  20. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Do anybody know what Pellaeon thought was so bad about the new Republic?
  21. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    I think at first it was just his blind love for the Empire. And possibly belief in Palpatine's lies about the Jedi Order, because if that was the case he wouldn't want the Jedi back. Really, it shows in his attitude that he might not have thought it through–that once he formulates his own opinions, has been in charge for a while, he decides that maybe the NR isn't so bad and that, while he doesn't join them, he at least forms a treaty with them.
  22. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Vader doesn't waste resources.

    He doesn't consider making himself feel better by giving him a vent for his anger waste.

    Also, I think Vader despises the Empire's officers and probably isn't fond of the enlisted man either. He has no Imperial loyalty. Because he knows the Empire is just an extension of Palpatine.
  23. Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2006
    star 4
    Vader was definitely fond of the enlisted man, or, at the very least, he respected them enough to fight on the front lines with them. Traviss mentioned as much (more than) a few times in Bloodlines --- the rank and file of the Empire respected Vader because he respected them. Flying into the Battle of Yavin, marching into Echo Base in the middle of a melee --- he was the same kind of leader he was in the (CGI) Clone Wars. A good one.
    Mia Mesharad likes this.
  24. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5

    *mumbles incoherent curses and burns another copy*
    CaptainPeabody likes this.
  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Pellaeon is depicted differently by different authors- and even the same author (Zahn) has him evolve considerably over the 10 year period between TTT and HOT.

    The idea that he was a "military genius" is an odd one- but it comes up in Starships of the Galaxy: Saga Edition (when describing the origins of the Pellaeon-class Star Destroyer)