PT Did Qui Gon have a plan B??

I have been thinking about this for a while.. What if Anakin hadn't won the race? Did Qui Gon have a back up plan? If so, what could it have been? Would he have resorted to underhanded measures?

 

The he would bet Obi-Wan lol

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I'm sure he would have come up with something the morning after.

 

He was just going with his gut. He had complete faith in the Force, so he let his instincts lead the way.
If Anakin had lost the race, Qui-Gon would likely have seen that as the will of the Force and looked/waited for an opportunity to arise from that loss.

 

I think he put all his chips on Anakin and didn't think too much beyond that. He had complete faith in Anakin. The Force was guiding him.

 

So you would discard any notion that he would have used underhanded methods like theft or intimidation to reach his objective?? I'm not so sure., Qui Gon was not your average Jedi....

 

He's still a Jedi and the Jedi don't behave that way. If he was going to use underhanded tricks and intimidation, he would have done it before finding out what Anakin could do and who he might be. Anakin was the one who relied on intimidation.

 

This.

 

I wouldn't go that far. A large part of Qui-Gon's plan relied on doing things like deceiving Watto, using the Force to cheat at chance rolls, and ultimately intimidating Watto into giving up Anakin by threatening to get the Hutts involved. Qui-Gon isn't your average Jedi. He would never resort to murder, though, as many have suggested he should have.

 

He didn't deceive Watto, he took advantage of his greed. And he only mentioned the Hutts when Watto didn't want to honor his end of the bargain. The Hutts are the authority on the planet.

 

He told Watto the pod was his. And as to your latter point: Of course, but it was still literally intimidation. Intimidation can be justified.

There's also the issue of him cheating at dice. I'm not saying it was wrong for him to do so. I don't think it was wrong at all. But these are not actions I feel the stuffy Jedi Council would likely approve of.

 

He told that at Anakin's suggestion (the person who built the pod). Besides it's no more deceit than pretending not to be a Jedi on Tatooine or even every instance a Jedi uses a mind trick.

I was always under the impression that Watto's dice was loaded. Hence his 'malicious' smile when he proposes to "let fate decide". If anything, Qui-Gon evened the field.

 

It would seem then that two wrongs can make a right, as long as it preserves the immaculate thought, motive and deed possessed by every Jedi. (except the selfish and greedy ones who fall in love and are a bit put out by stuff like their mother dying unjustly and right in front of their eyes).

 

Nothing like justifying a massacre as being "a bit put out by stuff".

 

Who is justifying it?

I was referring to the "selfish" and "greedy" labels applied to Anakin's anxiety and despondency over his mother. Not the piqued action he takes in the aftermath and which he acknowledges was wrong.

And his secret attachment to Padme. Defined as "selfish" and "greedy" even thought it is not inherently either of this things and only is so in the context of the Jedi code. And its evil has been defined by its deceit.

Anakin avenging his mother with impunity is clearly wrong. But all his actions and motives are treated with a double standard compared to to those possessed by other Jedi.

 

never considered this.....but great point. I did notice that the die had more of one color than the other, therefore being unfair that way.

 

I never said that a Jedi couldn't lie. I said that he didn't use any underhanded tricks. Yes, he did use the Force on the chance cube, but as Axelrd pointed out, Watto's the type to cheat. You can even see it in his reaction when the cube lands on Anakin's color. You don't get that angry if it was a fair bet. The Jedi Mind Trick is only used to influence people into doing certain things, but often it is to get out of sticky situation that negotiation won't work. As to intimidation, he told Watto that they could discuss it with Jabba not as an act of intimidation, but pointing out that if he chooses to welch, the local Hutt might not be happy about it. Actual intimidation would be pulling out his Lightsaber and demanding payment, or the parts.

Qui-gon did not do anything wrong in TPM. He went to Watto for the parts, found that he couldn't pay for them and decided to let the Force guide him in his actions. Those actions lead him to go along with Anakin's idea to race for the parts. He did so because of the greater need in getting Padme to Coruscant, so that she could petition the Senate's help in dealing with the invasion. He chose to add Anakin to the wager because he was asked to help him and he even tried to free Shmi as well. He was thinking of them and acting compassionately. He acts logically and not emotionally. He never uses aggressive negotiations on Tatooine.

Actions based on fear and anger. He acted emotionally the whole time and thought only of himself, not of his mission. Qui-gon was cool as a cucumber on Tatooine, even when he hears about the message from Naboo and realizes it could be used to find them.

No one said that he was evil for lying to the Jedi. But he is selfish because he had to choose, either be a Jedi or be a husband, and he tried to have it both ways for selfish reasons. He cannot be both and we see why when he turns. And his greed is wanting to be all powerful, so that he can keep his loved ones with him, instead of accepting that people die and there isn't anything that can be done.

 

I was replying to someone else. But anyway, deception and lies, gambling with other people's property and cheating are fine as long as you are ostensibly doing it for a greater purpose. The greater purpose in this case is duty to the Republic via the Jedi Order.

I don't know what aggressive negotiations has to do with this. I never mentioned aggression.

If the worst thing that comes out of your anguish and trauma of being taken from your mother at a young age and not seeing her again until you are moments too late to prevent her horrible death is that you find comfort, love and support from someone then you should think yourself lucky.

Particularly if your peers tell you that you must "train yourself" to let go of these feelings so that you do not act on them. In other words, suck it up and get on with it.

How long are the troubles that Anakin had to endure and which were understandably difficult for him to deal with going to be glibly invoked as his own fault for being unprepared to overcome? How long are you going to maintain that "letting go" of that kind of trauma and ordeal is something ordinary that Anakin should have reasonably managed without any counsel other than "train yourself"?

No one said that he was evil for lying to the Jedi. But he is selfish because he had to choose, either be a Jedi or be a husband, and he tried to have it both ways for selfish reasons. He cannot be both and we see why when he turns. And his greed is wanting to be all powerful, so that he can keep his loved ones with him, instead of accepting that people die and there isn't anything that can be done.[/quote][/quote]

Come on. The fact that Anakin broke the code and kept his transgression is regularly held up as exhibit A - selfish > greedy, ergo evil.

Being all powerful for its own sake at the expense of all other is evil. At no point is the desire for power simply for its own sake ever acknowledged or sought by Anakin.

Searching for the power to preserve life, no matter how misguided it is, is not inherently evil.

You keep talking about Anakin's inability to accept death and his refusal as some indication inherently evil ambition.

What we are talking about is Anakin's dread of a precognised death. There's a massive difference between that and the professed desire to simply have the power over life and death for its own sake.

If you had a persistent dream that someone you loved was soon going to die a violent death, would you be satisfied if someone told that you will have to accept that this death will occur and that you must not seek out any further knowledge to help you prevent that death?

To maintain that this extraordinary premise is an unshakable foundation on which to convey the vices of greed and ambition is ludicrous.

 

That's never established. Qui-Gon cheated during that dice roll. Also lied throughout his dealings with Watto.

 

No, it's heavily implied.

 

No direct implication. Only that Watto is a shady character & it's something he might do. It's also something Qui-Gon would do, since he was quite a shady Jedi.

 

Well if the knucklehead he trained is any implication...

 

No, it means that Anakin should accept that his mother's death, though tragic, was not the end of the world. Just his. That he must learn to process those feelings and learn to move past them, instead of clinging to them like a security blanket. And no, leaving Tatooine was not traumatic. He willingly made the choice to leave, as opposed to being ripped away. He understood that he might not see her again until he was older, as he himself had foreseen. And he was fine for years with that knowledge.

He had the love and support of Padme, but he didn't need to be married to her, nor commit himself to her, in order to function and be happy. That was an indulgence that was unnecessary and ultimately his downfall.

Until you understand. That is the story Lucas told. Anakin had to master himself in order to survive and function as a complete human being. His poor choices are his and his alone, no one else forced him into it. Being a Jedi is a hard life as Qui-gon told him. He had the means to stop Padme from dying, by simple virtue of the fact that he needed to adhere to his training and do nothing in Palpatine's office. Taking him out would save Padme, because he would never join the dark side. It is a lesson he finally understands in ROTJ, when he chooses to save Luke for the right reasons instead of the wrong ones. When he finally gets why he ***** up before and could make it right now.

He's not evil because he is selfish and greedy. Being evil is only in actions and behavior taken to achieve a loftier goal, in his case, choosing to betray everyone and everything in order to become all powerful and protect Padme from dying.

Except when he tells Padme that he's gaining all kinds of new power before he turns and then afterwards, when he tells her that they can overthrow Palpatine and take over.

Only if you're choosing to do so for selfish reasons, which was Anakin's goal. he wanted to defy nature using the Force. What he wanted was unnatural.

What the story is about is that if you act out of fear, anger and hate, you will become lost to the dark side. If you become obsessed with unattainable goals, become possessive of people and jealous of others, then you will become lost to the dark side. If your reasons are purely for selfish reasons and are unwilling to accept the limitations of medical science and the human body, then you will become lost to the dark side.

Yes, I would accept that there is nothing more can be done to save those that I care for, if I foresaw their demise and learned that nothing can be done. Just as I had to accept death in the real world when cancer treatments failed my stepfather and pneumonia caused Adult Respiratory Distress Syndrome in my brother, resulting in his death. I would not sell my soul to the devil to save the ones that I love. I learned to live my life as is, rather than in a constant state of fear of loss.The same with the rest of my family. The same way everyone else has to learn to let go. We are born, we live, we age and we die. That is the circle of life. That is nature. That is the Force. You learn to adapt to your circumstances so that you are not consumed by your fear of loss and the anger that will come with it. That is hard and difficult, but obtainable. To seek out the quick and easy path as Vader did, will result in dire consequences. The light is stronger than the dark, because it takes time and training to reach that plateau. But the dark is only stronger if you choose to use it and let it control you.

It seems ludicrous to you, because you are an emotional person. By that, I mean that you think too much with your heart and not with your head. This is not a slam on you, but an observation of how you don't understand the nature of greed and the story of Faust. You have trouble understand how what Anakin wanted is unnatural and wrong, when presented with evidence within the story and by Lucas's own words. You only see in terms of, "I have the power to save someone, so I should, regardless of it being right or wrong, by law of the universe". You don't see a larger picture, only in the here and now.

 

Would he have thrown Jar Jar into the bargain had he felt it was the will of the Force?? I think so.