PT Did Qui Gon have a plan B??

Not really. No other Jedi has such a strong emotional attachment, because no other Jedi was taken from their family this late. Being brought up in slavery, an only child, with a single parent, probably contributed to its strength. Shmi was the only person the infant Anakin could attach to.

Thus, if the attachment's to be dealt with, it has to be dealt with slowly and carefully - not just expecting him to act exactly like other Padawans his age - and if that means "catering" - so be it.


It seems to me fairly clear from AOTC - that Anakin did not lose his "emotional attachment" to Shmi - it was as powerful, if not more so, as the moment he left her in TPM.

A 19 year old armed Jedi has vastly greater power in this kind of exchange, than a 9 year old unarmed, untrained kid.

Watto would find it a lot harder to "re-enslave" 19 year old Anakin than 9 year old Anakin.

Padme freeing Shmi, would reward Anakin. Who deserves a reward from her, not just from Qui-Gon - because she has benefited enormously from his actions, both before leaving Tatooine, and after.

Quite apart from Shmi's decisions benefiting Padme - and thus, deserving some manner of repayment from her as well.

 

"I want to come back and free all the slaves!"

"You'll have to wait until you grow up and then get permission from the Jedi Council to petition a Senator to make a motion in the Senate Annie."



Alexrd
-Qui Gon doesnt take any mission assigned to him. He clearly follows his own course and does not blindly heed the orders of the Jedi Council, in fact his dying wish was him asking Obi-Wan to break the Jedi Code by training Anakin.

-Just because he couldn't help Shmi at the time, it doesn't make it right to never try to help her again. E.g. If your car broke down in Kansas, and a good Samaritan provides the part you need WITHOUT expecting anything in return. Once you get home and have access to your resources again you may send them a thank you letter at LEAST if not full payment for the parts. Yes, Qui-Gon helped her by freeing Anakin, but nothing was holding him or Padme from freeing her as well.

ps Iron_lord is killin' you on this one!

 

No, because the premise is that Watto can threaten Shmi, and if he can do so, Anakin will be vulnerable independently of his age.

Again, the premises are the same and they don't depend on his age.

Anakin's reward is the well being of Padmé and the Naboo, which is why he did what he did.

No. Shmi helped Qui-Gon (Padmé, Jar Jar and R2 were simply accompanying him) and Qui-Gon helped her. That's it.

That's factually not true since the movie shows him take every mission that was assigned to him.

His dying wish doesn't necessarily break the Jedi Code because Obi-Wan had just proved himself capable and would soon be able to train a Padawan of his own (which eventually happens).

It doesn't make it wrong either since they have their own duties and people to protect.

At least he brings up his own arguments instead of childish, deprecatory cheerleading. In that sense, he's "killin' you on this one" by comparison.

 

Does that mean Obi-Wan was his only apprentice because the movie shows Obi-Wan as his apprentice? Or that he has always had that haircut because it's the one he has in the movie?

...See where that logic takes you?

Except the Council already told him Anakin is "not to be trained." Obi-Wan proving himself doesn't mean the Council will go back on their standing Order. In the scene with Yoda we see that Obi-Wan does not ask for Yoda's blessing, he tells him he will train Anakin and is relieved when it turns out the Council reversed their decision.

They weren't protecting anyone at the big party from what I saw. It just looked like a big party. A big expensive party.

Mean!

 

Just because somebody does something out of "pure altruism" doesn't mean rewarding them is the wrong thing to do.

Anakin volunteered to Podrace for them, to win them money, out of altruism - he didn't expect any reward from Qui-Gon - but Qui-Gon rewarded this decision by trying to Get Anakin Free (and succeeding).

And, as The Supreme Chancellor points out:

Padme would know that Anakin's race benefited her, not just Qui-Gon - by enabling her to get to Coruscant and get her message delivered.

It's her ship they're trying to get fixed after all. Not Qui-Gon's.

And if Anakin's actions, both there and at the Battle of Naboo, are "pure altruism" and his enrolment in the Jedi Order prevents her from rewarding him the way the "average citizen" might be rewarded - that just leaves helping Shmi as the deed that would cause the greatest possible happiness in Anakin.

If I were Padme, the first thing I'd be doing after the celebration - would be making a really big deal out of Anakin's actions, to Naboo's Senate - then start talking about his background - and how helping Shmi (and to some extent, the other slaves of Tatooine, but Shmi first) out of slavery would be a fitting tribute to Anakin's goodness, and how much joy he'd get out of knowing she was free.

That's based on the presumption that she needs permission to spend Naboo's money on opposing slavery/freeing slaves, and can't do so without that permission.

 

So it's not true selflessness. It's selflessness to the will of the senate and within a defined jurisdiction.

Since when isvaluing the connection between a nine year old child and their mother considered pandering? Not in any enlightened society that I know of. This is the kind of excuse they gave for putting children up chimneys.

 

"Son my place is here, my future is here. It's time for you to let go"-Shmi

Shmi asked Qui Gon if he could help him & told him he deserves much more than a slave life. She knew with his talents, he was meant for much more.

Not a proper reward? It's her son. She loves him more than anything & she could finally take a deep breath knowing he would not suffer as a slave in this dumpster of a town for the rest of his life .

For a mother, for Shmi, that's the reward she wanted

 

Even in TPM, Yoda makes a big deal out of how he's "afraid of losing her".

Well, of course he's afraid. She's a slave (whose master can harm her or sell her to a worse master without repercussions) living on a highly dangerous planet.

The way to reduce that fear is to relieve it, not to condemn it "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering" - tell him that because of his fear he can't get into the Jedi Order - and then let him into the Order anyway (after Battle of Naboo) without dealing with the issue.

All that does is make him repress the emotion - he never loses it.



Their failure to resolve Anakin's issues could be excused to some extent by the fact that they've never had to train someone with his fears for a long time - but basic psychology should have been done because of his uniqueness among Jedi.

Sure - but she deserved more than just that for her decisions. Especially considering Qui-Gon clearly wanted to free her. She's just making the best of things.

And Anakin knows she's suffering as a slave in a dumpster of a planet - which will prey on his mind for the next decade, before she's kidnapped.

 

I think it's time to accept that, for some, the text of the movies is the literal, unambiguous truth at all times and that it is not to be looked at critically in order to appreciate any subtext, even when it contradicts itself. (Please don't anyone reply that it doesn't. I realise you won't accept that it does. You clearly have no interest or capacity to even consider it.)

 

I disagree. lmao joking! joking!

 

I see where the burden of proof lies, and it's not with me. You claim he doesn't take any mission. The movie shows him taking every mission that was assigned to him. The movie contradicts your statement.

What was said is that his fate would be decided later.

Qui-Gon saw a chance to free that family and took it. If he didn't have a chance, he wouldn't go out of his way and force it.

Shmi's parents benefited her. Without Shmi being born and in turn Anakin, she wouldn't be able to return to Coruscant in that instance. That's a fallacious premiss.

Qui-Gon was the one in charge.

It was Qui-Gon's decision to take the ship. Qui-Gon's decision to go get parts. Qui-Gon's decision to accept shelter and bet on the podrace.

Again, Anakin should let go. And as I've previously said: Padmé is free to go free slaves if she feels like it, although I'm not sure why she would put Naboo and the Republic at risk by going to meddle with the Hutts.

No, Anakin is afraid to lose her. Her condition as a slave is actually irrelevant. He's afraid to lose her independently of that. And AOTC corroborates it.

Yoda never approved Anakin's induction, the Council did. His stance remained the same. Fear does lead to anger, hate and suffering. And he should let go of his fear and attachment. That's the way. To act on fear is being a slave to it.

Jedi can feel fear. But they are able to control it and not act on it. That's how it should be.

 

AOTC shows him having visions of her suffering - which enhance any existing fear for "what might have happened to her since I left, because of her precarious position as a slave"

Then he discovers that she's been sold, freed and married - but kidnapped from her husband by Tuskens.


It makes sense to me that he would think "If she'd been freed earlier by the Jedi, instead of some Tatooinian - and taken off Tatooine, this wouldn't have happened"


And Backstories: Darth Vader, with its intro from Vader's point of view - confirms that this is how Vader sees it.

 

There is no burden of proof. Just because certain things are shown the movie, that is not an assumption that is the way it ALWAYS happens in that film universe. The examples I gave above show how ridiculous that assumption is. Not to mention Qui-Gon receives one mission in TPM. Settle the trade dispute between Naboo and the TF. This leads ultimately to a full investigation of the invasion which involves the conspiracy of the Sith. You can argue that was multiple missions, even then he get 2 assignments. I would argue it was just a singular mission evolving. So yes we are given insight into how Jedi are assigned their "missions", but if anything between Qui-Gon's actions and Obi-Wan's statements we are also led to believe Qui-Gon is a rebel within the Order and does not blindly follow instructions.

Also and I quote Mace Windu: "No. He will not to be trained." If no doesn't mean no, then what does? That doesn't mean they literally put him outside and say "goodbye kid." His fate means weighing returning him to his mother, which quite possibly means going back to a life of slavery; or finding some sort of orphanage system to place him into, which could also be troublesome; all while trying to protect him (and themselves) because the Sith are roaming around and may know of his existence.

 

^^^

 

It makes me wonder - what were Qui-Gon's motives for making that bet with Watto in the first place?

Was the motive "a moral obligation to people who have tried to help"

Or was it a colder, more pragmatic "The Chosen one needs to be off Tatooine and on Coruscant to get trained, so I'll try to bet him free"


In which case, the "pod against the boy and his mother" offer, was simply a high end one, that he knew Watto would refuse - hence his immediate drop to "The boy then".


In the context of the EU, and novelizations of the movies - I see him as leaning more to the kinder, more compassionate end.

The obvious example - with Jar Jar. He feels a moral obligation to Jar Jar when he hears Jar Jar will be punished "He has been of great help to us" - and, despite the fact that he doesn't feel Jar Jar owes him for life-saving, since the effort was so trivial "That won't be necessary" - he's happy to use Jar Jar's "life debt" as an excuse for saving Jar Jar's life.

In the novel, Obi-Wan is downright disapproving of this.



Obi-Wan closed his eyes in dismay. This was a disaster waiting to happen. But it was Qui-Gon's disaster to manage. It was not his place to interfere. Qui-Gon had made the decision to bring Jar Jar Binks along, after all. Not because he was a skilled navigator or had displayed even the slightest evidence of talent in any other regard, but because he was another project that Qui-Gon, with his persistent disregard for the dictates of the Council, had determined had value and could be reclaimed.

It was a preoccupation that both mystified and frustrated Obi-Wan. His mentor was perhaps the greatest Jedi alive, a commanding presence at Council, a strong and brave warrior who refused to be intimidated by even the most daunting challenge, and a good and kind man. Maybe it was the latter that had gotten him into so much trouble. He repeatedly defied the Council in matters that Obi-Wan thought barely worthy of championing. He was possessed of his own peculiar vision of a Jedi's purpose, of the nature of his service, and of the causes he should undertake, and he followed that vision with unwavering single-mindedness.

Obi-Wan was young and impatient, headstrong and not yet at one with the Force in the way that Qui-Gon was, but he understood better, he thought, the dangers of overreaching, of taking on too many tasks. Qui-Gon would dare anything when he found a challenge that interested him, even if he risked himself in the undertaking.

So it was here. Jar Jar Binks was a risk of the greatest magnitude, and there was no reason to think that embracing such a risk would reap even the smallest reward.



So - EU Qui-Gon might save Anakin from slavery partly out of moral obligation and compassion - but I could see "movie-only Qui-Gon" saving him purely because he's the Chosen One.

 

Totally agree!

Anakin knows his mother is a slave on a planet run by criminals. He knows first hand what kind of place it is and he knows his mother could be sold to someone that is not as nice as Watto.
And given how much Watto lost at the race, him selling her is more likely, as he needs cash badly.

So Anakin would most likely ASK the Jedi or Obi-Wan if they can do anything for his mother and he was obviously told, "NO, we won't help her, let go of your attachment to her."
But the worry brought on by her situation makes that impossible for Anakin and instead he tries to bury his feelings and act like they are not there.
But they are and they fester inside of him for ten years and when she dies, in very horrible circumstances, all those buried feelings come out in hate and death.

In a way, one can look at Anakin this way. The first Jedi he meets, Qui-Gon, shows compassion for him and makes him want to be a Jedi.
The last Jedi he meets, Luke, also shows compassion for him and makes him become a Jedi once again.

I think that the Jedi could and should have realized that his mothers situation was a big bother to Anakin and it would make it a lot easier for him to let go if he knew she was free and lived a better life.
And this is in no way pandering to him, It is about reducing suffering in Anakin and Shmi, to make it easier for Anakin to not go down a dark path. And Anakin is the single most important Jedi alive if the Jedi put any stock in the prophecy.
Plus Shmi helped one of their number and repaying her is simply decency.

@Alexrd

This excuse is nonsense. Why would the freeing of a slave cause any kind of conflict between Naboo and the Hutts?
It wouldn't.
The Hutts won't care if a slave is freed. They didn't care when Anakin was freed and they didn't care when Shmi was freed.
Padme can easily help Shmi without it leading to war or anything like that.
Then she can bring this to the attention of the senate, that slavery is still practiced and so on.
Naboo is at no point at risk.

And this is even more nonsense.
Of course her situation as a slave on a planet run by criminals is VERY relevant to Anakin.
To argue otherwise is to ignore how people work.
If a person has a close friend or a loved one that is in danger, say a soldier sent to war, kidnapped by criminals, missing in a dangerous country and so on. They WILL worry more about that person than if they know that the person is alive and well at home.

Children can get over the death of a parent, they will mourn and grieve but most often, if they have support and care from people around them, they eventually let go and move on.
BUT if the parent is missing or taken by terrorists or criminals and the child doesn't know if they are alive or dead. Then this letting go process is made much harder.
Now worry comes in, the thought of "Is my mother/father alive or dead, will I see them again?"

The same thing can be found when parents loose a child. The death of a child is terrible but most parents can get over it in time.
But when a child is taken or goes missing and the parents don't know if they are alive or dead.
Then letting go is very hard, they can still have hope, they are stuck not knowing and can't move forward. The wound can not really heal.

And to bring it back to Anakin, he didn't know that she had been freed. As far as he knew, she had been a slave for all this time.
So he had spent ten years worrying and fretting about her because she was still a slave.
Had he known that she had been freed and that she lived a good life, it would have meant the world to him and it would have made him letting go much easier.

How many options did Anakin really have?
When on Coruscant, if he is told that the Jedi won't free his mother and he says "I don't want to be a Jedi then." What could he really do?
He is a nine year kid with no money and he isn't even a republic citizen.
He can't go anywhere on his own.
He is totally dependent on other people.
Tatooine is not a republic world so would there be regular ships flying there?
Would the Jedi have time to take him there? Is that even their job?

Yes before he left Tatooine he could have said no and stayed.
But I think it is likely that he thought that he or the Jedi could return and free her.
Had Qui-Gon told him at that point, "The Jedi will never help your mother and you will never be allowed to help her either." Then I think he might have chosen differently.

So because Shmi did not ask for her freedom, then Qui-Gon or any other Jedi can just leave her be and not lift a finger to help her?
Did Han ASK Luke and Leia to save him from Jabba?
Not that I recall so where Luke and Leia wrong to save their friend?
Did Obi-Wan ASK Padme to save him on Geonosis?
No but she was determined to help him anyway.
Did Vader ASK Luke to save him? Nope, he pretty much told him that it was too late for him.
But Luke never gave up.

Many time so over the PT and OT we see people help others, not just because they ask for help but because they want to help others, because they feel it is the right thing to do.

The way you describe the Jedi makes it seem that they have no problem accepting help from others but when it comes to returning the favor, now they are not so keen. Now there are rules, they can't play favorites and so on.
This is painting them in a not so good light. Now being kind and compassionate takes a back seat to rules and dogma.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

That's why I like the Prequels, they're not afraid to show the Jedi in a not-so-perfect light.

 

Her condition as a slave puts her in less danger than as a free person on Tatooine. Shmi was free when she was taken by the Tusken. Anakin's fear of loss and decision of acting on his fear have nothing to do with Shmi being a slave or not. He would do the same despite her condition.

Exactly.

No, it doesn't make sense. She could have been kidnapped anywhere. She could have been killed anywhere. The only way Anakin could assure her safety is if he's with her all the time. Anakin should let go of his fear and attachment.

Yes, there is.

You're the one claiming that he did the opposite of what the movie presents. For that assertion to be true, you need to prove it. The burden of proof is yours.

 

It's not an excuse nor is it nonsense. How would Padmé free Shmi? Paying for her and thus help finance slavery? Or forcing her freedom and thus creating a problem with the Hutts?

Again, not nonsense. Anakin acts on visions of Shmi in suffering (and she's been free for quite a while). As I've already stated, Shmi could suffer or be killed anywhere so the fact that Anakin acts through his fear and attachment to her makes her condition (slave or free) irrelevant.

Who said it was easy? Nobody. What's said is that as a Jedi he needs to let go of fear and attachment. Not act on it.

Again, irrelevant. He should let go. The fact is that she has been free, he had visions and acted on those. Once on Tatooine, after learning that she has been free, he continued his pursuit out of fear and attachment. Like I said, she being free or a slave is irrelevant to Anakin's actions. He saw her in pain and suffering and couldn't let go.

No, it wouldn't as we saw in the movies. He was unable to let go even after learning of her freedom and was unable to let go of Padmé knowing she had a good life.

Many: tell the Jedi, stay with them or return to his mother.

Return to her.

Are you serious? Is that really your argument? Is it too much of a stretch to imagine that a ship could be arranged to return him home?

Of course there would. What makes you assume that it would be impossible?

They did help her. Qui-Gon freed Anakin which is all she ever asked for.

The right thing to do is what was done. Qui-Gon tried to free both of them without jeopardizing his mission and was able to free one of them.

Qui-Gon took help from others and helped them in return. This is a fact not up to debate.

I'm not painting anybody in a bad light. You are. You're pretending that everything is daisies and rainbows, that the mighty Jedi could just snap their fingers and erradicate slavery. That there are no consequences to actions. That principles are irrelevant.

 

That is an utterly specious and disgracefully antiquated assertion. The fact that Shmi was not kidnapped while a slave does not imply greater security. Nobody in their right mind or with a modicum of respect for humanity still perpetuates the conceit of "protection" by serfdom,, servitude or captivity. This is the kind of argument used by societies that have sought to deny humans their rights in the interest of profit.

Not anywhere. You've just claimed that if she was still enslaved by Watto she would have been safer. And the fact that she wound up somewhere less safe, by your logic, kind of justifies Anakin's anxiety at leaving her behind on Tatooine while he went of the Coruscant.

At this point, it is not the desire to assure the safety of people (which is impossible) that concerns Anakin. It is that no efforts have been made in the ten years since Qui Gon's bid for both him and his mother was unsuccessful due to temporary shortage of funds, and now he's having visions of her imminent, horrible death which he's too late to intervene.

 

What the...?! Sorry to break it to you, but facts don't care about your feelings. Slaves have more safety than a free equivalent, specially in places like Tatooine. They are property. It's why Anakin can talk back to Sebulba in the middle of the street without having a finger lifted against him.

Nobody said that was the premiss. It's not an implication, it's a fact.

How about you address the argument instead of looking for stuff to be offended about. Nobody here is promoting slavery or human captivity. Drop the strawman.

Again, it's not an argument. (NO) Reality doesn't change just because you don't like it. I'd rather be free than be safe, same for everyone. But nobody is arguing that.

Yes, anywhere. She was free and what happened could have happened anywhere.

Since when does one exclude the other?

No, my argument doesn't use that as justification of anything.

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't. Because you continue to ignore the fact that Shmi was free. And Anakin's visions of her in pain and suffering would happen wether he knew that she was free or not and he would still act on themregardless because he's attached to her and couldn't handle the visions of her in pain. Nowhere is it established that he expected anything out of the Jedi in regards to his mother. Not in that moment nor ten years before. And Qui-Gon didn't pay for Anakin's freedom. His "shortage of funds" are irrelevant.

 

Alexrd You are trying to ameliorate the perceived inconsistency in the level of concern and compassion exercised by Qui Gon and Amidala in not following up on their expressed intent to free Anakin's mother as reward for their shelter and considerable aid.

You should not pretend that you are not exploiting and tacitly endorsing notions that have been rejected by civilised society even though you are presenting these "facts" that support your assertion that she was safer in order to make it right that Amidala and Qui Gon did not pursue their expressed interest in freeing Shmi beyond their escape from Tatooine with the one slave that Qui Gon believes he needs, and which they could afford at the time.

I really don't care how you assess the safety or otherwise in being property as opposed to being at liberty. If you ask the slave which they would rather be and they inevitably reply that they would prefer not to be a slave, your ridiculous excuses for Qui Gon and Amidala's good but temporary intentions are moot .As if anyone with any authentic sense of compassion, which you continually pretend to be an authority on would seriously utter them, even in the abstract for the sake of a mere movie, in the first place.

How do you know that? Because those anxieties repeat with Padme? Maybe that happens because of the obstacles that delayed him responding to his permonitions of his mother. The fact that she was not a slave by that time is irrelevant. The ambivalence of the way that Shmi is left behind, the initial rejection by the council (after leaving his mother behind in the expectation of being accepted by them) and Yoda's refusal to provide key teachings essential for all young inductees is what leads to Anakin's inability to let go. That's a fact.

You cannot separate Anakin's inability to let go of his mother with the circumstances of his being separated from her. Are you trying to argue that since Shmi was free, unbeknownst to Anakin, that it makes his anxiety about her even "worse".

Qui Gon didn't have a stake large enough for Watto to put two slaves up against it. That's a shortage of funds.

If after the battle of Naboo, instead of just smiling at Anakin, Padme said. "Now we have peace, we can return to Tatooine and free Shmi from slavery as Qui Gon tried to do and which I as a compassionate and extremely grateful human being feel compelled to do for the mother of the boy who saved our planet from the droid army." I imagine you'd want Anakin to refuse or Yoda not to permit it , or what?

You use arguments to maintain the integrity of what people in these movies say and do and then you try do distance yourself from the implications of the arguments you are using.

edited - heels

 

That's a flat out lie. Show me where I've "exploited and tacitly endorsed notions that have been rejected by civilised society". [Removed. That's not nice.]

Again, another lie. The fact I mentioned is not and never was used to support anything, but to expose how pointless her condition as a slave or as a free person is in regards to Anakin's fears of her in pain and suffering and his decision to act on those fears.

[Removed. That's not nice either.]

 

Bruh, did you literally forget the post you made like...today? You literally said slaves have more safety than a free person. Slaves in almost every instance, go through mental and physical torture as well as repeated sexual abuse. To be a slave is to be in CONSTANT danger and fear, and only a whim away from death at the hand of your master. The fact that Watto just happened to be a relatively less-cruel slave-master, I repeat: slave-master, does not change this fact.

And yes, coming from a person of African descent it is somewhat of a...I'm trying not to be rude here..insensitive opinion.