PT Did Qui Gon have a plan B??

The big feat is that Qui Gon had at least plan A. Because before Anakin's proposition there was no plan: they were stacked in Tattoine with no means to trade and with damaged ship and with no time to spend. So, sometimes even plan A is impossible. Actually even plan A, no matter that was the only one, was dangerous and risky, as Padme suggested many times.

 

Jar Jar did owe him a life debt, after all.

 

I brought Jar Jar in because I remember there was quite a debate as to whether Qui Gon would have sold him into probable slavery if it meant obtaining Anakin

 

Yeah, but a Jedi would never engage in species trafficking.

 

What movie did you see that makes you even consider that Qui-Gon would do something like that? He just saved Jar Jar twice. First his life and again from punishment.

 

He probably saw the movie where he leaves Shmi behind in slavery.

 

That doesn't answer my question.

1. He tried to free her. 2. He's arguing that Qui-Gon would sell someone to slavery.

 

He fixed a dice roll to ensure that Shmi didn't have a chance of being freed. He then supposedly couldn't buy the freedom of one middle aged general labourer woman with no special skills. Even though Watto had "lost everything" & even though Qui-Gon had to trade:

- His share of the winnings from the race.
- 50,000 Republic Credits which would be valuable to trade with the frequent & numerous visitors from Republic space.
- The "fastest pod ever built". Which had just won the prized race.
- Whatever wealth & valuables the Queen of Naboo had on her royal ship.
- All of Shmi & Anakin's possessions.

Nope, apparently Shmi is worth more than all of that. Imagine what Cliegg Lars must've paid for her!

 

Qui-Gon already bet his Pod against Anakin, so that's no good. The Queen has nothing valuable on Tatooine, that was the whole problem in the first place. 50000 credits would be useless, because Watto doesn't accept them, and according to Shmi there aren't any other people friendly to the Republic willing to trade either, otherwise they could have avoided the whole Podrace. Besides, Watto's already lost Anakin to Qui-Gon, and nearly denied him that. It's unlikely that he'd be willing to lose his remaining slave.

The possessions hardly amount to much either, and it's not like a slave can buy their own freedom with stuff they own.

 

He won the bet though. Hence pod is still available to him. According to the novelization, he sold the pod to Sebulba and gave the money to Shmi - it's not enough to get her out of slavery, but it's a start.

 

Oh yeah, Anakin does mention selling the pod, and shows Shmi the money in he film as well. But as you say, it must not be enough for her to be freed.

 

Obviously I saw the movie where was explained that Watto didn‘t WANT to sell Shmi. And this is completely different situation. And why Watto didn‘t want to do that? Because “the buyer“ would be the outlander that caused the his fail in the gambling, I should say the biggest in his life. Watto even didn‘t want to free Anakin if you remember. So the money are not the problem: they sold the pod and they have (maybe) enough money but Watto just didn‘t want to sell Shmi. So I don‘t think he would sell her to Qui Gon even for more money.
Also, not doing anything to help to someone that you couldn‘t help is not the same as deliberately commiting a crime.

Surprise, surprise, selling slaves is crime in the Republic. So no, Qui Gon is not a criminal, I even cannot believe that I should explain that.

 

Local currency is clearly preferable to Watto. However it's absurd to think that 50,000 credits has no value to him in an intergalactic spaceport. To use with travellers from Republic space. Hell, Watto could travel to a Republic world & buy an awesome ship with that money. Luke thought that 10,000 credits was a huge amount. Enough to almost buy a ship. So Watto, now seemingly broke, is going to decline all of the local currency they had + tens of thousands of credits + whatever valuables & even more credits the Queen would donate? All to keep a slave that does what, cooks & cleans?? Only to sell her later anyway to a local farmer!? Come on. Lucas didn't think that one through.

 

Funny how you came up with a strawman in order to not address the original argument. But I'll play.

What?! No, that never happened. "Ensure that Shmi didn't have a chance of being freed"?! Where does that even come from? He asks for her freedom along with Anakin's, that fact alone contradicts your ridiculous statement. And he didn't fix an already fixed dice.

No special skills? Anything to back up that claim? And it's not a supposition that he couldn't buy her freedom. It's the truth.

Watto lost everything that was on the table. Not everything he owns. And everything you listed was already deemed worthless or of little value on Tattooine. The winnings are not and never were enough.

Apparently she is worth more than everything that's worth less. No surprise there. What Cliegg paid or didn't pay is irrelevant. Why don't you try to address the original argument now? You know, the one that supports the ridiculous notion that Qui-Gon would put someone to slavery in order to get Anakin.

 

Qui Gon was no normal Jedi.
He used mind tricks more than was normal.
He influenced the outcome of a (granted, loaded) dice roll
If the Force had told him it was best to sacrifice Jar Jar for the Chosen One, do you think he would not have done so??
I think he would have...

 

I agree that Qui-Gon would never sell Jar Jar or anyone else into slavery. Now, back to the strawman...

He ensured that the die landed in favor of Anakin, not Shmi. By using the Force he removed the chance of freedom for Shmi. Not saying that wasn't justified, it's just a fact. Watto using loaded dice is not stated in the movie.

She had no apparent special skills. Probably why Watto was far more willing to offload her in the bet. What amazing abilities did she have for a junk dealer & gambler? Anakin is the one who had the skills. I'd argue that Shmi's greatest value was providing & looking after Anakin. Who could build & fix anything & race pods. With Anakin gone, what use is she? How does she rebuild Watto's wealth?

Yes, Qui-Gon apparently didn't have enough to buy her freedom. The movie tells us that but it just doesn't add up. It's not even vaguely realistic. Watto had "lost everything" on the race. He'd clearly made a lot of additional bets on Sebulba. He tells us that. So now, almost broke he's going to keep Shmi (now without Anakin) instead of either a super fast championship winning pod, or the money they sold it for. Plus 50,000 credits to use on nearby Republic worlds like Naboo. Plus whatever the Queen can also offer. Lucas needed Shmi to stay behind for the story. The way he resolved it was highly dubious.

 

I suspect Qui-Gon likely would've went back for Shmi at some point if not for that pesky inconvenience of being killed by a Sith. The two had such great chemistry it's hard for me to see Qui-Gon just forgetting about her for the long run.

 

Well a far more sensible and far less risky plan A would be;
1) Go to another trader, one not immune to the mind trick, and use the republic credits to buy valuable stuff.
2) Go back and use that to barter with Watto.

Very simple, would take less time and has far fewer risks and random variables.

Qui-Gon had no problem with trying to make Watto accept republic credits despite being told that they are no good on Tatooine. So he would have no problem doing that to another trader.
This way he gets the part he needs and since time is of the essence, this gets the job done quicker than waiting to the next day or however long they waited for the race.

Yes he doesn't get Anakin but at this point, Anakin is not on Qui-Gons radar.

Or he could do a deal for a new ship in exchange for the old one, with some credits added.
Yes it doesn't work but it would still be valuable.

Getting to Coruscant and warning the chancellor about the war is urgent.
But apparently not so urgent that they can't wait a day or so for the race.

I view the whole thing with credits and the lot as a way to get the race and it is a bit contrived to me.
The idea that it is impossible to exchange currencies on Tatooine makes little sense.
We know that people from all over the outer rim come there to watch the races.
So a lot of people from other planets come there. These people would probably want to buy stuff such as lodgings, food and drink and bet on the race.
For any of the merchants on Tatooine it makes no sense to say "We only accept local currency and there is no way for you to exchange to this currency."
This way they are missing out on a lot of customers.

But the film needs the race so we have to come up with this contrivance and also have Qui-Gon ignore all the other ways he could get the job done.
Plus it also robs the film of the urgency that was established earlier.

As for leaving Shmi is slavery.
Lucas needed to separate the two and having her stay behind if nothing held her there might seem weird. So she remains a slave.
But that neither the Jedi nor Padme lifted a finger to help after the events of TPM was and still is a black mark on both them to me.
It made them seem cold and uncaring and I doubt that was the intention.

@ezekiel22x

Fully agree on the chemistry between Qui-Gon and Shmi, their scenes had some warmth in them and I liked them a lot.
I seem to recall some novel that had some extra dialogue between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan on Courscant. Qui-Gon said that he had arranged to send something valuable to Shmi so that she could buy her own freedom.
That was a nice detail, it fits Qui-Gons character and it showed that he did not forget her once he left Tatooine. And he also realized that Anakin would feel much better if his mother was not a slave.
One wonders why such a simple thing eluded all the other Jedi.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Point 1 is impossible as there was no any other hyperdrive generator of this type in Mos Espa. Watto said that and although he is trying to cheat he avoids to lie so let‘s assume that it is true and the movie just skipped the fruitless searching of Qui Gon. Actually the novelization confirms that Anakin finds the generator (trading with Jawas) and it is indeed rare on these lands as the Nubian ships are high class and Tattoine is not exactly an aristocratic planet. But with or without the novelization Watto said he is the monopolist in this trade.
As for changing money: you know that when you do this, you loose part of their value, no matter that you are changing directly money in the bank and moreover when you are trying to buy things and then change it for other. Not to mention how risky is this: the trader could refuse to get your stuff and the result is that you would be left with no money but with useless objects that cannot be traded back at the same price (i.e. more looses).

As for changing the ship. Now this is complicated. First, Mos Espa market is not for vehicles exactly. They are trading moslty parts as they are scavengers. But let‘s suppose that they find some cheap vehicle with hyperdrive and are able to trade it for the parts of the Nubian (most unlikely, but let‘s be optimistic). Qui Gon cannot do that. First he had to discuss it with the queen (she is not there, oficially is in the ship). I dare say that even the money came from the queen, the Jedi have no such wealth. But buying parts is one thing and trading the ship that is not his at all is completely different. Second, this is the royal ship. In case of big need they could trade it, but it wouldn‘t be easy decision, moreover, if someone recognize exactly this ship?! I mean the ship of the queen of Naboo. It is something that they avoid to do.
I could accept the third variant as plan B or maybe C although as I said I find it even more difficult to complete it, but in the end, Jar Jar clumsiness and the sandstorm lead them to Anakin‘s house, so plan A appeared.

 

You missed a crucial part of the plan, that Qui-Gon use his credits to get other valuable stuff, not a hyperdrive generator.
If he goes to another trader, he can buy, using his credits, goods, equipment and other valuables to cover the cost of the part.
Then he goes back to Watto and barters the stuff for the generator. Simple.

Or even simpler, he goes to a third trader and sells the parts and now he has Tatooine money.

Also, what Watto said about the part. He also said this;

"We have lots of that". That doesn't imply that parts to this ship is rare or hard to come by.

Also, how exactly would Watto know that he is the only one that has one?
His shop is one of the smaller ones, per Qui-Gons words.
Do Watto and other traders talk about their supplies when they get together?
Do they have some common list where they all write up what stuff they have so it can be found easily?
Seems very altruistic, shady dealers usually don't want to point potential customers to their competition.
One way he would know is if a ship of that sort quite recently needed such a part and the one looking for it didn't get it. But that leads to the question why this person didn't buy it from Watto.

His line is very typical for shady dealers, "I am the only one in these parts that have what you want."
But Qui-Gon being a Jedi could probably sense such a lie.
But then again Watto doesn't really know that Qui-Gon is a Jedi so that wouldn't influence his choice to tell a lie.
And since Watto's kind is immune to the mind trick, it is possible that Qui-Gon can't use the Force to sense lies either.

Yes when you exchange money you loose a little. But nothing in the film implies that the 50 000 is just enough for the part they need. Qui-Gon was confident that it would be enough.
Also, when a spaceport has lots of people coming from other worlds, such exchange places would be common. And if one of them tries to stiff his customers, word would get around and he would loose his business.
Plus, Qui-Gon is a Jedi and he can use the mind trick on those he does business with and make sure he isn't cheated. As long as they are not Force immune.

[/QUOTE]

That Mos Espa isn't a market for ships is not established in the film so irrelevant.
We do know that lots of people from other systems come there to watch the races. They will have ships. Odds are that some might be in need of repair or maybe even needing a new ship.
So it is logical that some business around ships do exist.

As for recognizing the ship, Watto saw it and he made no connection to Naboo.
Again he knew the type of ship and said "We have lots of that."
As for getting permission, they need to get to Coruscant asap. So ask the queen if she prefers to sit here while the TF occupy her planet or she looses a ship to get to where she needs to be.
And as for time, they have communicators, calling the ship would not take long.
Qui-Gon does call Obi-Wan.

And even if someone recognizes the ship, a bit unlikely given that we are dealing with something like a million worlds here plus Naboo is in the republic and people from the outer rim probably don't go there very often.
But even if that happened, this person would also know to contact the TF and it is unlikely that they have put out a galactic bounty for Padme, they are trying to make it look like nothing happened on Naboo. And even if we assume that this person did contact them, by now, Padme and crew have left the planet.

In all, these are far less risky and take less time than the actual plan that Qui-Gon used.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

lmao best comment out here. At that point you know Qui-Gon has a gambling problem.

The Jedi Council approved of invading other planets who democratically wanted to leave the Republic, but you don't think they would resort to cheating at a game of dice to serve their own interests?

 

That Mos Espa isn't a market for ships is not established in the film so irrelevant.
We do know that lots of people from other systems come there to watch the races. They will have ships. Odds are that some might be in need of repair or maybe even needing a new ship.
So it is logical that some business around ships do exist.

As for recognizing the ship, Watto saw it and he made no connection to Naboo.
Again he knew the type of ship and said "We have lots of that."
As for getting permission, they need to get to Coruscant asap. So ask the queen if she prefers to sit here while the TF occupy her planet or she looses a ship to get to where she needs to be.
And as for time, they have communicators, calling the ship would not take long.
Qui-Gon does call Obi-Wan.

And even if someone recognizes the ship, a bit unlikely given that we are dealing with something like a million worlds here plus Naboo is in the republic and people from the outer rim probably don't go there very often.
But even if that happened, this person would also know to contact the TF and it is unlikely that they have put out a galactic bounty for Padme, they are trying to make it look like nothing happened on Naboo. And even if we assume that this person did contact them, by now, Padme and crew have left the planet.

In all, these are far less risky and take less time than the actual plan that Qui-Gon used.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor[/quote]

'No money, no parts, nothing. And no one have this hyperdrive generator, I can assure you that'. Watto said this or something like that when Qui Gon tried to make the mind trick. Parts for Nubian: ok maybe they have many parts, but the hyperdrive generator is something special. So there is no contradiction and honestly and again, should they show every detail twice (!) to confirm that there is no other way? Because the first evidence comes from Watto. Again, he is not lying, I'd rather consider that 'we have lots of Nubian' is trade exaggeration. Because these could be tree parts, for example.

Now you remind me that Qui Gon called for Obi Wan to search something of value in the ship that can be sold, but Obi Wan said that they couldn't find something of such value. So yes, they tried what they could and the opportunities weren't so much.

Discussing on communicator during a storm such important decision that is to sell the royal ship of the queen and also when is uncertain if someone could buy it for money that are worth of it: that is irrelevant. As I said, this could be plan B for the next day: if there is at least someone who is ready to trade this for something that flies and have a as a hyperdrive generator which is uncertain.

And generally, it is hard just to buy a new ship (when I say new, I mean new for them, not somethig that is not flied before). The starships are not cars even in this universe. Better compare them to the sea ships. They are expensive and they give you the opportunity to travel through a new space that you cannot achieve in another way. You cannot buy one like someone is buying a snack. You saw how the poor people travel even in the Republic in Episode 2: the refugee ship is good example for this. It is not necessary to show it explicitly in the movie, I think, it is obvious that in such poor planet you cannot buy new ship just like that: those who are are there need the vehicle to leave the planet, at least.
If there were so many possibilities, someone would think some decision. But obviously was not that at all.

 

Another point. The Naboo ship & her crew were not stuck in that spot on Tatooine, or even stuck on the planet. Their hyperdrive was damaged so they couldn't travel at lightspeed. They could however go anywhere they liked around the planet & throughout the Tatooine System. Strange that Qui-Gon would speak to just one shady junk dealer & take his dubious word that only he had the necessary parts. Maybe Panaka could have got off his ass & checked out Mos Eisley.

I think the biggest issue is that Mos Espa, like Mos Eisley is described in the movie as a spaceport. So clearly there are pilots & ships that come & go to & from various parts of the galaxy. Those pilots aren't going to want local Tatooine currency. Many of of them, perhaps all of them would value Credits above anything else. A currency they can use all over the galaxy. Now look at the scenario from the Queen's pov. Her people are dying & she urgently needs to get to Coruscant to plead her case. As soon as she can see that her ship can't be quickly repaired why agree to the drawn out & convoluted plan of entering some kid in a race, hoping he wins & then hopefully buying parts from a junk dealer & hoping the ship will be ok? Alternatively she could immediately charter the next ship available. She already knows she can dress as a commoner as a disguise. She can be on board & on her way with a Jedi protector & one or two others, while Panaka etc continue to work on the ship. If they have no luck she can send back help from Coruscant as soon as she arrives. This also has the advantage of her traveling in an unknown private ship as cover. Rather than a conspicuous shiny Naboo cruiser. Qui-Gon talks about not attracting attention yet he's obsessed with fixing the Naboo royal ship that has a target painted on it. It makes far too much sense to explore that as an option for them not to consider or acknowledge it. Fortunately Luke & Ben were clever enough to march straight into the cantina & book passage (with 2000 credits, not 50,000!). We were spared watching Luke enter into a landspeeder race to try to win enough to buy their own ship.

 

The Jedi and Naboo have no money in Tatooine currency. We have no idea whether credits from a foreign 'power' are accepted on Tatooine at this point. In the OT, Han accepts credits yes (though not 'Republic credits', so we might be dealing with a new currency). It's clear that Shmi states that there's no-one friendly to the Republic who can help them.


Luke and Obi-Wan are two people, with two droids. The Queen has an entourage of handmaidens, security forces and freed pilots. She's supposed to abandon them on Tatooine to fend for themselves? And risk her own life on a shady ship that they might not even be able to afford?