PT Did Qui Gon have a plan B??

Help them get the parts. However if the city is also a spaceport it stands to reason that there are ships that come & go from other parts of the galaxy. That's what "spaceport" means. They're sure not going to want a currency they can only use if they travel back to Tatooine. Credits would surely be the most useful money to charter such a ship.

Are you serious? The Queen is going to prioritise the possible risk to a handful of crewmembers over the entire planet who are all "suffering & dying"!? Is it an emergency or isn't it? Also if it's safe enough for the Queen herself to throw on some rags & strut around town I'm pretty sure her crew including armed security officers will be ok for a few days. The absurd premise that the film creates is that everyone becomes obsessed with getting the ship to Coruscant. When all that matters is getting the Queen there. She's the one who needs to urgently plead her case & end the bloodshed. Which ship gets her there is irrelevant. They're at a spaceport & they're loaded with Credits. They have a chance to disguise her, book immediate passage & have her accompanied by 2 Jedi protectors. She could've been standing & addressing the Senate before the pod race had even begun back on Tatooine. But Lucas needed them to mess around for days gambling on a pod race so she could meet & flirt with Anakin. While back home the poor Naboo were dying in their droves.
Of course after all of that the Queen in her gratitude to the kind slave lady who took her in & gave up her only child who literally saved the Queen's planet, does nothing to buy her freedom. Think about that. A slave woman kindly but unknowingly helps & saves the Queen of a wealthy nearby planet...& as thanks she gets nothing. Not even liberated from bondage & set up in a nice country house on Naboo! They should've immediately sent a delegation & Watto could've named his price. IMO all of these things put together make Padme look quite dumb & also heartless.

 

I'm glad that's settled.

No, Watto set the terms (and the dice) so that they favored him. Qui-Gon used the Force on a fixed dice so if anything the throw was made fair.

It's a consequence, not the intent (as you've tried to imply).

It's heavily implied, but fine. Not stated.

That's not stated in the movie.

Or not. Not stated either.

I don't know. You're the one with the burden of proof.

No. Anakin had skills. Doesn't make him the only one who had skills.

No. What's stated is that he lost everything that he bet. Not that he lost everything that he owns. He lost money, ship parts and a slave. That's what he put on the table and gambled with.

I've yet to see how things don't add up. They were stranded. They didn't have money (in a worthy currency) to buy anything. The posessions they had, if sold, were far from enough to pay for what they needed. They accepted the help of a boy who offered them something they could bargain with (through gambling). And while they were at it, Qui-Gon took the chance and bet the freedom of the boy who helped them (fulfilling both the mother and the boy's wish).

?! No, they didn't.

 

One thing to keep in mind was that they didn't want to draw too much attention to themselves. Despite the later threat to Watto, Qui-Gon didn't want the Hutts to know about their situation, because he told Panaka it would be as bad as if the Trade Federation had caught them.

His actions/plan was the best of bad options.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

 

Why do you keep assuming credits will be able to pay for anything? Watto doesn't accept them, and Shmi confirms that there's no-one friendly to the Republic out here. Ergo, Republic Credits are worthless.

By the time of ANH, this is clearly not the case. Han accepts credits, and there's an Imperial presence in Mos Eisley that is accepted by the populace (the SE of ROTJ adds more credence to an Imperial occupation by showing the people there celebrating at the end).

As for rescuing Shmi, what do the Naboo have that's worth anything to Watto? Credits are useless to him, so Naboo's relative wealth is unimportant. He's also not going to want to lose his only remaining slave. If Watto refuses to sell, which based on the dice roll he's most likely to refuse, then the Naboo can do nothing. Plus Tatooine isn't a part of the Republic. Qui-Gon already exceeded his mandate by freeing Anakin. The Jedi can't go around freeing slaves outside of the Republic, not without causing a diplomatic incident with the Hutts, and it's likely that an official part of the Republic, Naboo can't do it either.

 

That's a good strategy. So naturally you'd want to attend the Superbowl of podracing. Stand together on a giant raised viewing platform at a major televised event in front of thousands of people. In the presence of the Hutts themselves! Brilliant

 

How is that drawing attention to themselves? They're just a part of the crowd of thousands, no different to any of the other thousands of attendants. It's not like the Hutts are looking for Padme, or that the viewing booth is going to be scrutinised.

 

They weren't just faces in the crowd. They were on a conspicuous viewing platform. They then gathered around & hugged & high-fived the winner of the Superbowl race. While all eyes & cameras were on him. Glad they were careful not to draw attention.

Not to people or pilots who are from or who travel to Republic space. Since Mos Espa is a spaceport you're quite likely to encounter such people. Unless Tatooine currency can be used all over the galaxy too.
Shmi said there's no one "friendly" to the Republic. She said nothing about currencies.

Han wanted Imperial Credits bcs he's a pilot who does business all over the galaxy. He probably would've laughed at being paid in local currency. Same would go for a non-local pilot during TPM times. What use would local currency be to them?

Oh please. By her generosity Shmi just helped save the Queen & the entire planet of Naboo. They could send all kinds of ships & wealth to Tatooine to sell for local currency. Or they could offer Watto his own luxury ship. Or a mansion on Naboo overlooking the lake. If Padme were determined to free & reward Shmi, as she should then they would've easily got it done. Watto was down on his luck & desperate. Some time after he sold Shmi to a local farmer! So I'm pretty sure the Queen of a wealthy planet could do a deal.

 

Your argument is not consistent, first you say that Watto doesn't lie about him being the only one with the part but then you say that what he said before about having lots of Nubian stuff is an exaggeration.
Either both are equally true or both are equally suspect.

Anyway, you are arguing against a straw-man, I never suggested that other traders had the part.
My plan was for Qui-Gon to buy valuable stuff using his credits and THEN use that to barter with Watto.

Yes Qui-Gon did consider the idea to use valuable stuff for barter with Watto.
What he for some reason forgot is that he could acquire such items very easily.
Go to another trader, one not Force immune, and use his credits to buy stuff equal to the cost of the part he needs.
Then he goes back to Watto and makes the deal.
This would be quicker than having to go back to the ship and get it.

This is quicker, easier and has fewer variables than what he comes up with.

The storm had not started when Qui-Gon was talking to Obi-Wan.
And nothing suggested that the communicator was sensitive to the storm.

[/QUOTE]

Watto suggested that Qui-Gon buy a new ship instead of trying to fix his old one, he said it would be cheaper.
So obviously there is a market for ships in Mos Espa, otherwise what Watto says makes no sense.

And that it is hard to buy a ship, again nothing in the film implies this.
And Watto's comment goes against it.

Plus, a new ship has an advantage, the TF knows the queens ship.
If they buy a new one, the TF have no clue what they are looking for.
So a new ship is safer as it allows them to travel incognito.

@darkspine10

Look at what Qui-Gon did in the film, he tried to use the Force to make Watto accept the republic credits. The only reason that didn't work is that Watto's kind is immune to the mind trick.
So, if Qui-Gon did the same thing to another trader, one NOT immune, that person would accept the republic credits and Qui-Gon would get stuff that he can then sell or barter with.

So whether or not republic credits can be used in any way is irrelevant. Qui-Gon was told this and yet he tried to make Watto accept them anyway.
Had the film not shown Qui-Gon trying this, then this argument would have a point.
But since it does, it doesn't matter.

But it doesn't make much economical sense for there to be no way to exchange money on Tatooine.
Esp in light of how many off-worlders come there.

What does Naboo have that is valuable on Tatooine? Let me think, WATER!
Tatoone is a desert planet, ergo water is very valuable.
Owen is making a living on farming water from the air.

What else do they have? Oh how about a lot of junk battle droids. That could be bartered with Watto.

As for not wanting to loose his other slave, disproven by AotC as he DID sell her.
To a poor moisture farmer.
The idea that Cliegg of more wealthy than the ruler of a whole planet is rather absurd.

Sorry, but this is nonsense.
Qui-Gon freed one slave and it caused ZERO problems with the Hutts or any kind of diplomatic incident or anything like that.
So Padme or the Jedi buying Shmi and freeing her would likewise cause ZERO problems or incidents.
The Hutts won't care if some outlander buys a slave and frees him/her.
They didn't act when Qui-Gon freed Anakin and they didn't act when Cliegg freed Shmi.
So why would they suddenly get upset here?
They wouldn't.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

They were in native clothing. Qui-gon did nothing to attract notice that he was a Jedi, hence removing his robe and putting on the poncho, which hid his Lightsaber. Padme wore simple clothing and not her royal gear. Jar Jar was just a Gungan, but not commonly known since they weren't a space faring race. No reason to suspect anything about the three of them. Jabba and Bib Fortuna had no reason to pay attention to them. They were merely outlanders as Watto himself thought earlier.

True, but to find someone who won't sell them out is risky and time consuming. Any number of pilots coming to Mos Espa might be connected to the Federation or could be on the hunt for them. Plus, they might not have the funds necessary to trade, nor a desire to help. Remember that Obi-wan went to one pilot who begged off, but pointed out Chewie, whose friend was in desperate need of the funds. In ANH, there were only four passengers. In TPM, there's over a dozen people.

Yes, Qui-gon could have sought other solutions, but he's also a Jedi and trained to trust his instincts. Those instincts were telling him to trust Anakin and his racing skills.

 

No, because he's not a psychopath.

It's not just that. Participating in the slave trade, even to free a slave, simply perpetuates the industry and forces some other unfortunate soul to replace the person you just freed. UNICEF and Human Rights Watch both oppose the practice of slave redemption by foreign groups.

What Qui-Gon did with Anakin (and tried to do with Shmi) was to engineer a situation where Watto would lose more than he gained. And as we can see in Episode II, Watto certainly didn't prosper by his deal with Qui-Gon in Episode I. Whereas if Qui-Gon, the Jedi Order, or the Naboo people had paid Watto a "fair market price" in order to free Shmi, then Watto of course would have made a profit and used the money to buy a replacement slave, which not only forces some other innocent person to endure Watto's particular form of cruelty but, in economic terms, simply opens up a slot for an entirely new slave to enter the system somewhere down the line to fill the gap that was created by Shmi's removal.

Shmi had made peace with her situation. She could handle putting up with Watto. But who's to say the slave who would ultimately end up replacing her could do the same? Moreover, she felt that her place was on Tatooine, right where she was. And that turned out be true, as it enabled her to encounter Cliegg Lars and to find happiness with a family. I'm sure she wouldn't have traded her time with the Larses even if she somehow knew how it would end.

 

I get it but that would be like asking what if Luke hadn't made the shot in ANH or in TFA if Rey had lost to Kylo Ren.

 

Still you'd think 'not attracting attention' would include keeping a low profile. Going to a Superbowl-sized event, which is televised, & standing on a giant raised platform separate from the crowd, with a tall clumsy conspicuous alien who is indigenous only to Naboo doesn't seem the most prudent plan.

Not really. Probably more risky to wander around town trying to source parts for a Naboo class ship. & showing off a hologram of said ship. As for time consuming, how much time was consumed with some convoluted plan involving betting on a kid in a local pod race?
I'm sure Qui-Gon is capable of speaking to some locals & getting a recommendation for a pilot who's known to the locals. Besides, he has his mind tricks & Force sense to fall back on.

Again, mind tricks & Force sense. Qui-Gon jumps at using these tactics. Think Boss Nass, Watto etc. Qui-Gon will easily be able to get someone to take Credits. Not that it would be difficult since off-world pilots likely wouldn't want Tatooine currency anyway.

So the Queen is going to take a principled stand & leave Shmi to rot in slavery, just to make a political point?? Shmi only said "my place is here" for the benefit of Anakin. She was clearly prepared to leave if Qui-Gon had managed to arrange it. Otherwise he wouldn't have bothered trying. The Queen of Naboo was witness to all of that. She also saw this lady take her into her home. Feed them all. Allow her only child to save them in their situation. Her only reason was that "he was meant to help you". She then makes the ultimate sacrifice of allowing her only child to leave her. Where he then saves the Queen's entire planet! & after this the Queen doesn't think to send someone to free her?? Pretty callous stuff. It's a glaring omission that this wasn't addressed in the next movie, in conversation between Padme & Anakin. At the very least a very good reason given for why the Queen tried but could not get this done. One line of dialogue like that would've portrayed Padme as a far more thoughtful & compassionate character.

 

Did you not even read my post? "Pretty callous stuff"? Take it up with UNICEF and Human Rights Watch, Mr. More-Moral-Than-Thou. I'm sure you know better than them.

The reason it wasn't addressed in Episode II is because it should be pretty self-evident to most people why you shouldn't give money to slavers to buy more slaves. Like, it seems pretty intuitive to me, you know? At the very least, it seems like a concept that should strike one as being of a bit more real, visceral import than simply making "a political point." But that's just me.

Please don't perpetuate the slave trade, Darth Downunder. I'm begging you here. It isn't nice.

 

Yet Qui-Gon tried to offer Watto whatever he could for Shmi. How disgraceful of him!
No way did Lucas deliberately intend Padme not help Shmi for those political reasons you've stated. If he wanted to make that point he would have. Her not helping Shmi is simply an omission. If in AotC it was stated that Padme did everything she could to try to free Shmi to show her gratitude, would you've been here complaining about it? Saying how thoughtless & irresponsible Padme was? I don't think so. Also why you're not bashing Qui-Gon for "irresponsibly" releasing Anakin & trying to release his mother.

 

You have a fair point. Just one line to explain why Padmé didn't at least TRY to do something for Shmi and it'd explain it.

As for the whole 'perpetuating the slave trade', why are we not looking at Cleigg? I mean, he bought her, and I'm sure Watto used the money to purchase another slave. Why does he not get criticized?

 

I don't see why it needs to be explained. I don't think most people watching the movie questioned it.

Cliegg bought Shmi because he loved her and wanted to make her his wife. Not even human rights groups fault the family members of slavery victims for buying their freedom, and Cliegg was operating in a similar capacity. But what Cliegg did still wasn't ideal in a strictly objectively ethical sense. Cliegg is just a simple moisture farmer. He dismisses Sand People as "vicious, mindless monsters." He's a fundamentally good person, but he doesn't exactly possess the sort of high-minded capacity for ethical thinking that you'd expect from someone like Padme or the Jedi Order. And that's okay. That's forgivable. He's only human.

But when it comes to someone like Padme, what exactly is the situation she's looking at here? Free Shmi because she was nice to them and helped them? Why does that mean she deserves to be freed more than anyone else? What about all the little slave friends of Anakin that she met, like Kitster and Wald? They're just children. Don't they deserve to be freed more than Shmi? Well, okay, she should just buy all of them, too, then--along with Shmi. Cool. But what about all the other slaves who live in Shmi's neighborhood? Most of them are probably perfectly nice people. They don't deserve to be freed by Padme just because they didn't have the good luck to be put in a position to show her hospitality? What kind of logic is that? No, they all deserve to be freed. In fact, every damn slave on the planet deserves to be freed exactly equally as much as Shmi does. So, logically, Padme should simply buy all the slaves she can reasonably afford--and so should everyone else with the means to do so. But that would definitely drive and perpetuate the slave trade, in a major way. So following that logic through to conclusion, it must be good to buy some small arbitrary number of slaves, but bad to buy some other, larger arbitrary number of slaves. But that's absurd.

You see what I'm getting at here? The solution is to end slavery on Tatooine, period, through large-scale institutional action. That's the only morally consistent solution. Buying Shmi's freedom while leaving all the other equally deserving slaves on Tatooine to languish makes no moral sense. If you condemn Padme for not buying Shmi's freedom, then there's no conceivable reason you should not still condemn her for not buying some other randomly chosen slave's freedom instead.

 

Not sure if you're being serious here or joking. Are you saying that bcs the Queen can't hope to free every slave on the planet, or even in the galaxy then there's no point in rewarding the woman who sacrificed the company of her only child to help save the Queen's planet? What an absurd notion. Like I said, were you enraged at Qui-Gon for being so irresponsible & thoughtless in freeing Anakin? In trying to free Shmi? Shouldn't he know better than an outrageous act such as that?
How about Padme returning the act of kindness that Shmi showed her? & then working her ass off in the Senate for the rest of her days to try to end slavery more broadly? Sounds like a good plan.

 

He would have sold the ship or Jar jar.

 

But who is watching the Boonta Eve that cares? You really think Nute Gunray or Sheev Palpatine were watching? The latter knew that they were there which is why Maul was looking for him and he wound up finding him, not because he was in the tower, but because he was talking to Watto in the stands.

Going by the film, it looked like they were only there for thirty to thirty six hours. Perhaps less. Anyway, his Jedi sense was telling him this was the best plan. Just as Luke's told him that confronting Vader on Endor was the best option.

And yet, he choose not to do that. There's a reason that neither he, nor Obi-wan resorted to doing so. The latter could have forced that first pilot to take him to Alderaan, instead of going with Han and Chewie.

 

Appeal to majority fallacy.

First, Shmi is Anakin's mother. So if he bought and freed her, that would make it fine according to you?
Second, so only Jedi and royalty have a high-minded capacity for ethical thinking?
Regular people don't have it?
Given that Cliegg was the only one that did anything here, I don't think this speaks well of either the Jedi or Padme.
He ended the slavery of one person. Did the Jedi or Padme do even that?

Were the kids with Anakin actually slaves? I don't recall that being established in the film.

So according to you, it is more moral to help ZERO people than to help a few?
As long as you can't save EVERYONE, you should save NO ONE?
That kind of thinking will pretty much assure that no one will be saved ever.
It is like saying "You can't hope to solve this problem, it is too big, so you might as well not bother."
Are doctors wasting their time, they won't be able to save every patient so they should just stop trying?

What about the people that donate clothes to homeless shelters, or give food?
Are they wrong? They help some but not all so they should just stop?

What about Raul Wallenberg or Oscar Schindler?
They saved thousands of Jews from the Holocaust but not all of them.
So would it be more moral of them to do nothing?

[/QUOTE]

And why can't Padme do both?
You put this as either/or. Padme can free Shmi or she can work on freeing all slaves.
Why is it impossible for her to help Shmi out of a sense of personal gratitude while also trying to make big changes in this matter?
Padme seemed upset that slavery still existed in TPM.
Did she do anything about it?
As far as the films show, no. She left both Shmi and the other slaves to rot.
Not seeing the morality here.

I am reminded of a story I read years ago in a magazine or book. As I recall, lot of fish or dolphins had washed up on shore and some people were trying to get them back into the water.
A reporter asked one of the people why they did this, what difference they could make.
And the person pushed a dolphin back into the seas and said, "It makes a difference to that one."

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Qui-Gon would have no idea who was watching that race. Or who would recognise a Gungan standing with him on that conspicuous raised platform.

Who knows. We don't even know how long a day is on Tatooine.

Han agreed to Ben's terms. If he hadn't Obi-Wan probably would've waived his hand in the air. A tactic that Qui-Gon was even more keen on using.

 

Darth Downunder, you seem to be constantly harping on Qui-Gon and co.'s attendance at the Podrace as if it's some major blunder that will get them all found out.

The fact that they're on a raised platform adds nothing to their conspicuousness, it's a viewing platform for the race, no-one in the crowd is going to (or be able to, given the sloping nature of the platform) look up at tiny viewing platform when the race is the main draw.

Qui-Gon has disguised his jedi robes, Padme's not in her elaborate queen makeup, and as for Jar-Jar, he's from a race that is unknown even on Naboo. Padme has ask Jar-Jar when they meet that to confirm that he's a Gungan. The TF treat the Gungans as a rumour at first. Even if the TF somehow knew to tune in to a sporting event on a random planet, and were for some reason searching the crowd with a fine toothpick, they'd only find a man in a poncho, a young girl and an unfamiliar alien. In short, there's nothing about them attending the podrace that could possibly give them away as anything other than friends of one of the racers, which is in the hangar, away from the cameras.

Adding to this, when the probe droid, a droid explicitly meant to hunt down Qui-Gon and his group, flies right by him, it doesn't even register him, it just flies off.

 

But the platform they enter begins on the ground. Then it's slowly raised up to the top of the tower. Imagine doing the equivalent thing at the Superbowl if you were on the run & trying to keep a low profile! Even if you were from the other side of the world.

You're forgetting that the Jedi, accompanied by JarJar fought the droids of the TF as they escaped Naboo. They cut down several battledroids. Plenty of others survived to report their descriptions, including their companion JarJar's. Maybe the TF even has security footage of those incidents. Qui-Gon was right to say they had to avoid attracting attention. He had a funny way of adhering to that plan.

 

Alright, if they have security footage of Qui-Gon and Jar-Jar, which we have no evidence for whatsoever, the TF still don't know what planet the Naboo cruiser landed on. You're assuming the TF are going to be combing sporting event crowds on multiple planets, all with the hopes of spotting 2 individuals in a crowd of thousands.

For clarification, here's the full arena:


The viewing platform that Qui-Gon and crew are on is one of several dotted around the track. The fact that it raises into the air is irrelevant. None of the cameras are focusing on the crowd, they're focusing on the track. Being high up would actually be better, as they would be away from where the cameras are facing. From the ground, you can't see any of the occupants of the platform. So how is it possibly conspicuous?!

 

The point is, Qui-Gon believes there's a risk. He says they need to avoid attracting attention. Clearly this implies that word could get to the TF. They're the ones after them. So how does strolling out in front of tens of thousands of fans, at a huge televised event & climbing onto a a giant viewing platform fall in line with that strategy? & then running out to & high-fiving the winner of the race when all eyes & cameras are on him? Not to mention strutting around town with your lightsaber visible on your belt. Which the kid easily noticed. Or asking around about parts for a Naboo class ship. Put all that together & Qui-Gon looks very foolish.

A bigger image of it is here. You can see how much they stand out. Those huge crowds are looking right at them. They also need to enter & leave at ground level.