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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Did Qui Gon have a plan B??

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by JediAlanG, May 21, 2017.

  1. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Your enthusiasm for dining etiquette is most impressive, but it has nothing to do with my accepting a plot point in a SF adventure story. Like I said, I'm fine with Shmi not being immediately freed by Padme or another arm of the Republic. It makes for what I think is a good story, in line with the tragic atmosphere the PT was aiming for.

    But now that I think about it, why did Yoda steal Luke's dinner when he could've bought his own instead? One time I had dinner at Burger King.
     
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  2. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    What happens in the film is a scene on the ship after they leave Tatooine;
    So Padme is well aware that Anakin misses his mother.
    And since she knew both were slaves and had explosives in them then she must know that Anakin had been freed from slavery and it is very likely that she also knows that Shmi is still a slave.
    If she had been freed, why would she not come with her son?
    So because Shmi is not her people, Padme feels no gratitude or obligation to help her?
    Wow she is quite selfish.
    Plus see above, she knew Anakin missed his mother.


    [/QUOTE]

    ????
    She leaves the choice to him yes and she is putting on a brave face.
    She knows that she could get him to stay by simply saying so.
    But she says she will be alright because she sees a better fate for him away from Tatooine.
    It no doubts pains her but it is a sacrifice she is willing to make.
    So she tries to put his mind at ease as much as she can.

    @CT-867-5309

    Except that The_Phantom_Calamari's argument also includes this;
    So it would be unfair for Padme to free Shmi while not freeing others.
    Ergo not freeing anyone is more fair.
    So the argument is, it is more MORAL to save ZERO people that it is to save one or a few or some.
    THAT is why I brought up those examples.
    Oscar Schindler saving some Jews is unfair to those he didn't save. Ergo he should not have saved anyone.

    I don't agree with the reasoning, "If you can't save EVERYONE, you should save NO ONE."
    It generally means that no one gets helped, ever.
    And I certainly don't think it is more moral to do nothing because you can't help everyone.

    This logic condemns Luke in ANH because he freed Leia but did not free the other prisoners on the DS.
    It also condemns Luke, Leia and co because they freed Han but none of Jabba's other prisoners.
    I don't think the films is trying to paint their actions are morally bad.
    Nor do I think the film is trying to paint Qui-Gon as bad for TRYING to free Shmi or Cliegg for actually freeing her.

    Also, we see from AotC that Cliegg bought and freed Shmi and Watto, at least as far as the film show, did NOT get a new slave to replace her.
    Most likely he sold her because he was seriously in debt after the race and he had to sell her to get money or go bankrupt.
    So one slave was freed and ZERO new slaves were created.

    Plus the logic that if one slave is freed then another is enslaved in his/her place is too simplistic.
    It ignores that there are many more causes of slavery that just this.
    War and large conflict, chaos and a break down or law and order. Extreme poverty.
    All those are things that can cause people to become slaves.

    Yes, on a large scale, ending slavery will need more than just buying a slave and freeing that person.
    Same as you won't end world hunger by giving a starving person a meal.

    But as I asked before, why is this an either/or?
    Why can't Padme free Shmi from slavery due to a personal debt and to help Anakin, whom she cares about, AND try to put political pressure to end the slave trade and raise awareness about it?

    But as far as the movies show, she did neither.
    So how it this better?
    Why is it more moral to do Nothing than to try and do Something?

    See Watto in AotC, he did not get a new slave.
    Plus, why would a slave trader only make new slaves when they get money from selling a slave and not when they get money from other means?

    Except it wasn't.
    Qui-Gon could either have tried to buy for passage to Coruscant or do what Watto suggested, sell their old ship and buy a new one.
    As long as he is dealing with someone that isn't immune to the mind trick, that is perfectly doable.
    So if not dealing with Watto is so important, Qui-Gon could have avoided it.

    @ezekiel22x
    But the plot point only mattered in TPM, where Lucas had to split up Anakin and Shmi.
    If both had been freed, it would look odd if she stayed for no reason. So she had to remain a slave.
    But if Padme had freed her soon after TPM and Shmi has remained on Tatooine because she felt at home there. And some years later she met, fell in love with and married Cliegg.
    Then in AotC Anakin has bad dreams about her and Padme tells him what she did and tried to put his mind at ease but it doesn't work. So they go. But Padme does not know where Shmi is now and Anakin goes to Watto to ask.
    Pretty much nothing in the film changes except now Padme does not look like a cold and uncaring person.

    As it is now, it just comes across as an oversight by Lucas.
    He did not consider that Padme or the Jedi had the means and motive to help Shmi and so forgot about it.
    Also if Anakin had asked Obi-Wan if he could help his mother in the time between TPM and AotC, and I can't imagine why he wouldn't ask. And Obi-Wan told him no, that is something to build on.
    It helps to drive a wedge between Anakin and the Jedi. He sees these powerful people and yet they won't lift a finger to help his mom.
    And when she dies, that would be something that Anakin could have lashed out against.
    That Obi-Wan didn't help his mother nor allowed him to help her.
    So instead of just saying "He is holding me back", he could yell at Obi-Wan for this thing.
    This is ripe with good drama and yet it is mostly ignored.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  3. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Padme doesn't look cold and uncaring to me. In fact she chooses to accompany Anakin to find his mother when she sees his pain and worry firsthand. So for a time she is "guilty" in the manner that the republic as a whole is in allowing time and distance to cloud certain threats and preserve certain injustices, but she eventually rises above this. That's in part why the two share such a strong bond. The situation is rife with drama as it is for my tastes.
     
  4. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    She could come with him even if she had freed his mother.
    They could develop a bond even if she had freed his mother.
    If she had done that, it would give him even more reason to like her, because she actually did something to help his mom.

    And I saw no hint that she gave any thought to her inaction in regards to Shmi.
    Had she then that could have been something but she says nothing about it and Anakin doesn't ask her.
    "Hey do you know what happened to my mother? Did you try to help her?"
    Most likely because the answer would be "Your mother? No I forgot all about her once I got my planet back."

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  5. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Don't like that idea at all. I think there's more dramatic tension in not knowing what became of Shmi until Anakin and Padme arrive back on Tatooine. Also, Padme freeing her would indicate an increased likelihood of her routinely checking up on Shmi, which would in turn lead to an increased likelihood of Padme and Anakin being in touch during the ten years between I and II. Don't like that route either, as it lessens the impact of Padme suddenly coming back into Anakin's life after so long a time.

    If we're making up dialogue I would sum up the situation as:

    Anakin: I worry about my mother. Sometimes I think I shouldn't have left at all.

    Padme: It was a difficult time, Ani. It still is.
     
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  6. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Padme was just a teenager. Can we blame her if during the victory celebration she saw a cute boy and forgot about the slave she left to die alone on Tatooine.
     
  7. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Well she wouldn't have died alone. Watto was there. He likely would've buried Shmi if she happened to buy the farm instead of surviving and being sold to Cliegg. More than all those prisoners and janitors on the Death Stars got right before the Alliance had their various dance parties. Then again no one said life in the Star Wars universe is entirely fair.
     
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  8. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I don't mean physically alone. I mean emotionally alone. When your a slave with a bomb planted inside you the sight of the person keeping you enslaved is not a source of comfort.
     
  9. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Obviously. It was a bad situation, but not the worst possible situation given Shmi was indeed freed and found some happiness before the Tusken incident happened.
     
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  10. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    With all due respect, it obviously wasn't obvious to you, or you would not have retorted with:
    You can't have it both ways.
     
  11. MarcJordan

    MarcJordan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2014
    I've know all of that. Thank you. Next. Let's see...Padme smiles at him at the landing platform. He smiles back. Good now all is fine.


    Then TPM is not for you? ;)

    Nope. Padme is not selfish. I've already provided proof that Shmi is of self sacrifice "he deserves more than a slaves life can you help him?". Padme knows enough that Anakin mother can let go of her fears and to trust Anakin he can help. " He was meant to help you " Not I allow him to help you ". And again I repeat and will repeat over and over....Anakin said he going for training. Case closed.


    Ok good . Self sacrifice. And it is clear beyond any doubt. Same movie we're discussing. Interesting no? Getting bit silly for me to argue with you or waste any more time. Time to watch TPM again! :D

    Bye

    MJ
     
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  12. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002

    I was being a tad facetious, playing off your quip about Padme "seeing a cute boy and leaving a slave to die alone." But nonetheless I can have it both ways. Like I said, Shmi being left behind was awful, but it was not the worst possible fate the character could've faced at that point in time.

    Goodbye for now
     
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  13. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Well, due to being left alone on Tatooine she ended getting the worst possible fate. Out of universe it's just a plot hole. In-universe, I admit it does serve the narrative of the corruption plaguing the Republic and the Jedi. Caught up in the "important" galactic affairs while forgetting about the poorest more oppressed people of the galaxy who's lives they could transform.
     
  14. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    Yes, I'm saying that makes no sense. Freedom is something everyone deserves equally be virtue of being human beings. Shmi doesn't deserve freedom more than the other slaves just because she was lucky enough to be in a position to help Qui-Gon and his friends.
     
  15. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
  16. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    But if it's impossible to free every slave on Tatooine or in the galaxy does that mean that none should be saved? Even someone who gave up her child to help others which resulted in the freedom of an entire planet??
     
  17. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The difference is that she's acted to help Qui-Gon and friends, and the others have not. That incurs a separate obligation - which pushes her higher up one's "priority list".

    In theory, a Jedi should help everyone. In practice, they must prioritise - and "those are In Need who have helped Jedi" should be a higher priority than those who don't.


    The fact that Shmi is generous - and never asks for "repayment in future" only proves that she is more deserving of help than the "average person".
     
  18. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2015
    No it doesn't, it means that of all the places Qui-Gonn and co. could have ended up, they happened to end up where she was, she happened to be in a situation she could help them, and that she did. She didn't actually do anything proactively to help them beyond giving them a meal and somewhere to sleep - it was Qui-Gonn who was behind Anakin being free etc. in fact he used the force to make sure Anakin would be freed - and Shmi would not. I am not saying Shmi DOESN'T deserve help and freedom, but she doesn't deserve it ''more'' because of the events of TPM - and getting a loving husband and adoptive family later on seems like she was rewarded.
     
  19. MarcJordan

    MarcJordan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2014
    Qui Gon : "It's the boy who's responsible..."

    MJ
     
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  20. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Yes, she deserves help more from the Queen. As Anakin said "The problem in this universe is that nobody helps each other". It was Shmi who took in Padme & co into her home. Who allowed her 10 year old son to enter a dangerous race. Despite her grave fears, just so he could help them. Which allowed them to get off Tatooine. Which led to her son saving the entire planet of Naboo. Surely that deserved some kindness in return. Especially from someone with the means of the Queen of a wealthy planet.
     
  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    "he can help you" - is pretty synonymous with "I'm giving him permission to help you".

    When you ask someone's parent "Can he come help me?" and the parent says "He can help you" - that's giving permission.

    "Permission" is enough. Especially when it's permission to do something highly dangerous, which you hate seeing them doing.

    Shmi put herself through emotional hell, for a bunch of strangers, because her son asked her to do it. That's a big thing.
     
  22. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
  23. MarcJordan

    MarcJordan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2014
    Shmi : I die each time Watto makes you do it.

    So Shmi has gone through this several times now it's for a good cause. Her son loves the challenge. "Watto doesn't know I built it"

    Anakin has got this down.

    MJ
     
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  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The fact that she's gone through it several times - means she's got good reason not to want to go through it again. All the previous times, she had no choice - Watto's word was law. Now, she has a choice about it. It being for a "good cause" (helping a Republic that has never helped them) doesn't change the fact that it hurts.

    The fact that it's a home-made, never-flown-before Podracer, constructed in secret from Watto's spare parts without Watto's knowledge, is going to make her worries even greater.

    Shmi's "giving permission" is no small thing. Thus, she is owed, morally, and freeing Anakin only pays her back in part.
     
  25. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    On those prior occasions Shmi had no say in it. Watto as their owner ordered Anakin to race. In this case Shmi had to volunteer her son to race. Since Watto didn't know about the pod Shmi had the option. Even though it terrified her she still allowed it. There's no way you can diminish her incredible gesture of kindness here.