PT Did Qui gon/obi wan make the right decision for the galaxy by training Anakin?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Lord Tyrannus, Oct 22, 2012.

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  1. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Yeahh, because I;m even still thinking about something I posted nearly 3 months ago. :p
  2. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    How the hell would things have been worser off without the discovery of-Anakin Skywalker?

    Just because the star wars films imply predestination, that does not mean that every single that happened has to be a result of predestination. Neither does that refute/explain-my post above!!!!!!
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Jan 7, 2013
  3. darth.ender Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2012
    star 1
    Was I not agreeing with your original post? Did you not seem to imply that things could have been worse? Goodness, my first post here and I already run into trouble.
  4. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    I'd had left it very ambigious.

    Also, as the administrator Darth Boba has stated/has said, sometimes people forget what they'd had written many months ago!!!!!!!:eek::eek::eek:

    Besides, in my personal opinion, as you'd had brought it up beforehands, the butterfly effect could explain this entire what-if theory speculation!

    Without Anakin Skywalker, the Jedi could either find out either way and go to fight the future Emperor-Palpatine.

    Also, nothing was predestined, with a few exceptions, @DarthEnder, as you'd had previously stated beforehand. Without anakin skywalker, the survivals of Obi wan kenobi, Yoda, and the other order 66 sixty six Jedi survivors might have gone somewhat differently, witch therefore would result in things going differently for Emperor Palpatine. Do you remember "a new hope" and "that boy is our only hope", and "there is another hope-witch was princess leia organa". Luke Skywalker and princess leia organa were implied to have been the new Chosen Ones.

    Any light/good-side of the force sensitive user was a threat to the Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious's power!

    Order 66 going differently could have resulted in the survival of certain Jedi Knights, according to/by the butterfly effect theory!

    Sorry, dude, also, i apologize for my extreme punctuation. It's is just an Obessive compuslive disorder habit. As you can see right now, I'm am trying to stop that annoying bad habit gradually!

    Let's please not get into arguements over here! I love polite discussions!
  5. darth.ender Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2012
    star 1
    No problem. I don't plan on having any arguments with you. Have we ever argued before?
  6. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Don't worry. He's like that. ;)
  7. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    This aint an arguement at all, dude. This is just a friendly speculation discussion over here. Let's not continue to derail these threads with us talking about our past experiences with each other, ok, is that fine???

    Without Anakin, Order 66 might have happened in a very different way, thereby resulting in more "a new hopes", to oppose-Darth Sidious/emperor palpatine, thereby resulting in a much more totally different scenario. Timing can be very important to the plans of any evil dictator!!!!
  8. darth.ender Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2012
    star 1
    That's absolutely fine with me. I just don't remember ever arguing with you. I know we had friendly disagreements at that site known around here as the "PT hater OT fanboy" site, but I don't remember actually arguing with you.

    But on topic, there's not much more we can do than speculate. That's just like saying, "What if Alois Hitler had not made love to Maria Schicklgruber that night, would we have had World War II?" We'll honestly never know. But in the Star Wars universe we're talking metaphysical. Clearly the most crucial event in the history of the Force was the one who would bring it balance. Anakin was destined to just that one way or another, and if he was not at least destined to fall, he was still destined to bring balance and it would have happened regardless of the method.
  9. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    I've have always interperted bringing balance to the force in a very metaphorical, not in a very literal sense!!!!

    Let's just look at all of the factors that contribute to our discussion. Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader bringing balance to the Force and defeating an ancient darkth Sith Lord Empire Order of evil tyrannical dictators did definitley save the galaxy from the forces of evil people!!!

    However, the main debate/the main discussion of this thread, is, would that balance-to the force have happened much quicker if Anakin Skywalker hadn't been taken away from Tattoine by qui gon jinn, or if he hadn't even been born in the first place?

    In my opinion, this is all just speculation that could go either ways on both sides of this debate. If you want me to clarify what I meant exactly before, I can do that four you!!!!!
  10. darth.ender Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2012
    star 1
    I think I've got it. But I don't know. I don't think so. I think that it would have taken longer. Palpatine would have still seized power. But the Chosen One would probably have not been there to stop it because Qui Gon had never rescued him. Could there have been a different Chosen One? Well, this gets beyond the scope of Star Wars and more into individual relgious views.
  11. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Order 66 was nessecary for the formation of the first galactic Sith Empire!!!! However, do you understand-my whole entire butterfly effect theory or not???
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Jan 7, 2013
  12. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    And all of those concepts are introduced into the story in the PT. It stands in absolute opposition to what GL said the original Star Wars trilogy was about. Choices.

    I have a theory that what changed between the OT and the PT was GL's fundamental belief systems. The OT was created out of the sixties and seventies (essentially), and GL seems to infer that the Empire is what the US is becoming. This is a reaction to Vietnam, Cuba etc. He even references the Ewoks as representing the Viet-cong - a technologically inferior peoples defeating the bad Empire. Vader and the Empire, then represent the US, the rebels the radical younger generation opposed to what the US had become/was becoming, and returning to what it once was (at least in an idealised version of history).

    Twenty years later and many things have changed. GL tells us that he has always, really, at heart, been a conservative (anybody seen THX 1138?). He tells us he's a Methodist-Buddhist.... Come again? The world has changed dramatically. The 'Empire' he used to despise he now understands. The Empire has come about because it has had to come about, look what the world has done to it. This shows in his treatment of Anakin. He gives every other character/organisation in the galaxy some aspect of blame for his position. Its almost as if he had no choice. He gives everyone enough rope to hang themselves, and Anakin becomes bound to a destiny. He isn't really to blame after all. Everybody else is. The Senate, The Jedi Council, the Republic itself is to blame for Anakin's fall.

    Is it a coincidence that the Sandpeople, (wonder who they are based on?) who are merely dangerous robbers in the OT are descibed in the PT thus ;"Those Tuskens walk like men, but they’re vicious, mindless monsters." (Cliegg Lars, AOTC) - that now they have become kidnappers, torturers and murderers, something less than human?

    Just a thought, or two.
    kainee likes this.
  13. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    [IMG]

    Why don't you enjoy that idea of Anakin Skywalker being bound to a destiny? It makes the Star Wars Films very "epic" and "science fiction-ish", and "fantasy fairy tale the Lord of the Rings Stylized mythical"!!!!
  14. darth.ender Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2012
    star 1
    I am quite confused how I can bring up something that is speculation, meaning the possibility of a different Chosen One if Anakin never fulfilled his destiny (which is actually very much on topic IMO), and I get bolded letters and "whoa, whoa whoas" telling me to stop derailing a very speculative thread. Meanwhile someone else talks about George Lucas's worldviews and politics, and while still on topic, it is more tangential than my own comments, and you give him no grief. I admit you do really confuse me there, LT.
    Last edited by darth.ender, Jan 7, 2013
  15. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    I apologize, dude, darth endeor. I had just misenterperted what you were saying before, dude!!!!!
  16. darth.ender Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2012
    star 1
    It's cool. As for the butterfly theory, it's a pretty sure thing. One small change, such as QGJ never taking Anakin off Tatooine, would have changed the way the whole story unfolded.
  17. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    My whole entire butterfly effect theory goes far more beyond that. I aint saying that you are wrong or anything along those lines like that, however, well then, but, what I meant by that was that without Anakin Skywalker, Order 66 would have happened in a much more different fashion!!!!
  18. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I disagree completely. If anything, the PT only reinforced the importance of believing in choices and not giving in to the notion that we are powerless to choose our own fate.

    For one thing, all of the PT contains references to the Nixon administration. This aspect never disappeared, along with incorporations of history -- such as ancient Rome, Napoleon, and Nazi Germany. George Lucas is basically demonstrating how Empires arise while condemning the process, or did you forget these important lines?

    "The day we stop believing democracy can work is the day we lose it." "Let's pray that day never comes."

    and

    "So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause."

    The PT serves as a warning -- to not take democracy for granted and that Empires arise when people give up in the system instead of attempting to fix it.

    Plus, although Lucas does show how many external factors are relevant to Anakin's fall, at the end of the day, responsibility is still laid at Anakin's feet. Anakin knows he has done evil (hence the tears on Mustafar) and he rather literally "burns in hell" for his sins.

    And the idea that the Republic and the Senate have been decaying from the inside out has always been present. Read the opening to the 1976 Star Wars novel and it describes how corruption rotted the Empire from the inside out. But this doesn't excuse Anakin's actions in any manner.

    Plus, you are attributing Cliegg Lars' words about the Tuskens to Lucas and that's not necessarily fair. Of course Cliegg is going to call them vicious, mindless monsters -- they kidnapped his wife, have been torturing her, killed 26 farmers that went after her, and cut off his own leg! It's not at all uncommon for people to dehumanize their enemies and it's clear that the Tatooine farmers and the Tuskens have a great deal of tension between them. But you can't use Lars' words as a substitute for Lucas' views on the matter. Not the least of which is because Anakin's killing of them is presented as utterly wrong and his first step to the Dark Side.

    Also, considering Lucas had this to say about Obama:
    "
    We have a hero in the making back in the United States today because we have a new candidate for president of the United States, Barack Obama," Lucas said when asked who his childhood heroes were.
    Obama, "for all of us that have dreams and hope, is a hero," Lucas said."
    I doubt that many conservatives would agree with you that Lucas is among their ranks. Heck, he even said Obama would be a Jedi:
    Lucas refused to answer a question about “Who is President Bush more like: Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader?”, but insisted that Barack Obama would be a Jedi.
    “I would say that’s reasonably obvious,” he said.
    Not to get into a big political debate, but I don't see how Lucas could be considered politically conservative. Look at the names "Nute Gunray" and "Lott Dod."
    kainee likes this.
  19. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    In the short term (up to end of ROTS), no it was not the right choice
    Longer term (ROTJ), it was probably the right choice

    But I wonder if there could have been a third choice. What if Anakin was discovered and trained to fulfil his destiny but not as a Jedi? That could have avoided a lot of the problems that led to him becoming Darth Vader. Would he had unmasked Sidious and destroyed him without all the 'bad stuff', would Sidious have remained undiscovered, or would Anakin have turned anyway because of his fear of losing a loved one? Ah, speculation... ;)
  20. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    One thing that I strongly hate/i strongly dislike about the star wars prequels movies/trilogy/films is that the transformation of the Old Galactic Republic into the Galactic Empire was nothing more than a title, it was all just a group/a bunch of symbolic symbolism, to put it here frankly. The

    A real world analogy/a real world example-a Hypothetical/a what if Scenario

    Our president Barack Obama gets emergency powers and becomes a dictator, and he violates the constituion and he gets absolute power for himself. Only then when he christensens himself/when he appoints himself the "emperor" or the "dictator" of the united states of america, with the actual title of an absolute ruler, do people actually even care that he has become a dictator, because of his titles of nobility, which even furthermore violate the constituion of the united states of america. The galactic republic was the galactic-empire long ever even before these whole entire sequences.

    [IMG]
    [IMG]


    Does that make any sense to anybody else, other, than umm, uhh, well,--me?????
  21. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    If Darth Sidious had never been unmasked/discovered, then he would not have been a threat at all!!! Dictators are evil because they rule the galaxy with political power, not because they are just hiding somewhere in a secret room within the Galactic Senate!!!
  22. darth.ender Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2012
    star 1
    A good point. The Republic was already a nacent Galactic Empire. And even then, it would continue to become more and more evil. In Episode IV, the already weak Senate was disbanded. This was merely another step in its evolution towards a more and more dictatorial power. But Palpatine was already a dictator long before he officially announced it.
    kainee likes this.
  23. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    Unless he had ruled through a puppet 'leader' while remaining safe behind the scenes! He had a lot of experience in that kind of thing, after all ;) But that might be pushing the idea a bit.
  24. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Then what exactly was the meaning of your original post before this post right over here???
  25. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    I was considering what might have happened if Anakin had been trained but not in the Jedi Order. Since it was Anakin who exposed Palpatine's true identity to the Jedi, I was wondering if that might not have happened under different circumstances. It's impossible to know what would have happened, but it's interesting to speculate.
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