Lit Did Sidious do the right thing when he killed Plagueis ?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Marco1907, Aug 10, 2014.

  1. Marco1907 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2013
    star 2
    Not for the sith mastery claim, its very natural after all, every sith wants to be a master.

    I mean was that the right time for killing Plagueis ? Sidious doesn't have the enough power to defeat Plagueis in direct duel, and against Mace Windu or Yoda the conclusion will always be uncertain at that power level of his.

    Mace Windu could end the sith line in coruscant duel if not for Anakin's betrayal, and Yoda duel was also difficult, however with the power of the Darth Plagueis I doubt Windu or Yoda could defeat them...

    Thoughts ?
  2. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    1. Maybe Sidious could have beat Plagueis in a duel, but he (Sidious) doesn't enjoy duels.
    2. Does Sidious care about the Sith line outliving him?
  3. Orman Tagge Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2014
    star 3
    I'm in the camp of those who don't think Sidious had any real chance of losing to Yoda or Mace, so I'd say he did the "right" thing.
    Riv_Shiel and darklordoftech like this.
  4. Marco1907 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2013
    star 2
    I think thats the reason he wanted Anakin as apprentice so much, and then same with Luke.
  5. Nobody145 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 4
    That depends on exactly how you define "right time". For some Sith, they just wait for the perfect opportunity, either because they're not quite powerful enough to kill their master on their own or they prefer not to risk a direct confrontation. For Plagueis, it was the same thing with his own Master, Tenebrous, an unforeseen assassination attempt provided enough distraction to subtly kill his own master. Tenebrous didn't even realize for a bit that Plagueis had killed him.

    For Palpatine, well, in terms of power he's almost unrivaled by RotS, except for Yoda or Mace (he easily killed several other Jedi Masters in seconds). However, he also did wait for Plagueis to fall asleep before killing him (and that was literally the first time in years Plagueis was actually sleeping too). In terms of knowledge, well, Palpatine didn't learn everything Plagueis knew, but more than enough to take over the galaxy. I think the text was a bit ambiguous how much Palpatine had been biding his time and how much was him just taking advantage of the opportunity when it presented itself. Something like Palpatine had been about to walk out but then turned around? And being evil incarnate basically, Palpatine also took the time to gloat about his victory and bring up the time Plagueis had Force choked him, years ago, since Palpatine never forgives.

    Considering Palpatine lost Maul at almost the exact same time he killed Plagueis, that was probably a bad sign for him. As far as Plagueis knew, Maul was just an assassin, but Palpatine may or may not have had bigger plans for Maul and was downplaying his importance to Plagueis. Plagueis might have understood a few things better than Palpatine, for instance the Force may have been pushing back against the Sith's efforts, narcissistic as that may sound. Things still worked out almost perfectly for Palpatine for decades, but there were more than a few close calls.

    More than anything else, Palpatine may not ever have had another perfect opportunity to kill his master. They had both been drunk on their success, of Palpatine ascending to the chancellorship, Plagueis' personal bodyguards had the night off, and aside from that, Plagueis might have been immortal and would never otherwise let down his guard. I think he had surpassed the need to sleep by then, and it was the success more than the stress that finally lulled Plagueis to sleep. Well, that and underestimating just how evil Palpatine was. By then Palpatine had taken over the planning enough to not need Plagueis anymore, but also Palpatine probably couldn't have resisted finally getting rid of his Master either.

    As for continuing the Sith line, probably originally, or at least to do damage to the galaxy, but later on, once he figured out the trick with the clone bodies, there was no need for a successor, just servants and lackeys, and eventually he wouldn't even need those.
    anakinfansince1983 and Jedi Ben like this.
  6. DelRiego Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 2

    I feel that was more in line to have a deputy take care of stuff. There's some dealings you can't trust to interns you know.
    Riv_Shiel and darklordoftech like this.
  7. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    He seemed to be enjoying himself when he duelled Maul and Savage on Mandalore, he was cackling with glee the entire time. Same with his duel with Yoda, he was laughing his head off as literally threw the Senate at the little green frog. All evidence suggests that Palpatine enjoys battle, he just doesn't get too many opportunities to fight personally.
  8. vong333 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2003
    star 4
    I can't comment anymore on this because we don't truly know if this is the official events that took place. Though, what I wouldn't do for the Lucasfilm Group to say that this novel made it into the official canon now. That would be awesome, but I can't say that this is actually the truth anymore. Is it Legends? or does it sneak into the new canon? Once that can get settled then I can comment.
    darth car likes this.
  9. Orman Tagge Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2014
    star 3
    I'd say that he was reveling in the fact that his plans were finally coming together, perfectly, and in that he truly had defeated the Jedi (although Mace did not know it yet).
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  10. Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2013
    star 2
    I'm thinking "no."

    Darth Maul was basically an executor, like Mara Jade - there's never a sense that he's really being groomed to replace him. Darth Tyranus was just a placeholder for Darth Vader, Vader a placeholder for Luke... Sidious treats all of his apprentices as disposable pawns. Since he was planning to live forever (clone bodies), it seems reasonable to assume that he figured the Rule Of Two was now done, to be replaced by the Rule Of One (himself).

    "Apprentice to Lord Sidious" is one of those crappy, unpaid or minimum wage positions that's advertised as being temp-to-hire, but in reality is just a revolving door for temp workers that the company uses to make the coffee, change the ink in the printer and all the other things the real employees don't want to bother with, and then lets go after a few months to make room for the next sucker.
    Pfluegermeister and Thuro like this.
  11. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    It was the right time, yes. While Plagueis undoubtedly knew of things Sidious had yet to Master, Sidious was more than powerful enough to lead the Sith in his own right, not to mention the more adept political manipulator. Would he have succeeded in a no holds barred duel, one on one? Perhaps not. Who knows? The fact is, however, that Plagueis showed such a disturbing amount of trust and confidence in his apprentice ("I LOVE YOU MAN! LET'S GET WASTEDDDD!") that he was no longer fit to rule.

    The issue of the "Sith line" ending isn't remotely an issue. Any Sith worth their salt, especially within the RoT framework, would concede that if the Sith are wiped out as a result of an untoppled Master's actions then they don't deserve to exist, anyway. There was no need for Sidious to second-guess himself.
  12. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Plagueis was simply redundant at that point. Co-Chancellor? One of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard, shocking that Plagueis didn't dismiss it outright.

    The idea that Palpatine should keep Plagueis around for another 10+ years (or at all) just in case he might have to duel Mace Windu or Yoda one day is half-baked at best.
  13. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    The right time to kill Plagueis, by Baneite rules, was 20 years before Sidious did. Not by Sidious's rules, though. If Plagueis hadn't been so trusting, if he hadn't been a hermit who didn't step on Sidious's toes at all, if he hadn't been very careful about not revealing the extent of his martial/Force abilities to Sidious, and if he hadn't been an insanely rich lobbyist who could get anyone elected, he'd be dead at the Canted Circle Lodge.
  14. Alixen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2003
    star 4
    Er, you are aware that a goodly portion of the fanbase aren't going to simply forget the Legends continuity exists, just because Disney says so, right? Or consider any new takes 'fact' and the old takes 'fiction' (at best I will consider them equally valid, but separate continuities)? Why not just comment on the book we have? Its fairly clear that this topic has nothing to do with something that isn't even on the new continuities horizon. Sorry if that comes across as a little harsh, but the occasional post I come across that takes the attitude that we shouldn't care until a Disney suit gives us permission to truly rubs me the wrong way, and sets all my rebel and anti-corporate instincts into overdrive. I freely accept and even look forwards to the new continuity and seeing what is produced, but i'm certainly not going to dismiss a continuity that has been going longer than I have been alive. But ironically Disney aren't the one who comment that they won't deign to comment on a none canon item in a thread written about said none canon item.

    On topic, the right time was when he had just been injured. He was weakened and his spirit was almost broken.
    Last edited by Alixen, Aug 11, 2014
    Riv_Shiel and CT-867-5309 like this.
  15. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    I'd say so, as evidenced by the events that took place after the fact. He was already Chancellor of the Republic. He had the trust of the Jedi Order. He knew where the Jedi's Chosen One was. And he was a master lightsaber duelist, with amazing Force abilities as well. The one major thing he didn't know was his Master's ability to manipulate Midichlorians, which I think was something he calculated into his decision: It'd be a great blow to lose such an ability, but it'd be a greater one to him to never really be Master of the Sith Order. I'm of the opinion that had he challenged Plagueis directly at that time he would have lost, and what's more may never have been able to beat his Master after that point unless another such situation arose where he could lure him into a very vulnerable state of mind. Considering that had his Master lived he would've become Co-Chancellor I doubt that such an opportunity ever would have come along again. Sidious also probably thought, with his usual arrogance, that he'd be able to rediscover the ability on his own, or an ability that was just as good. (Essence Transfer may already have been on his mind at that point even.)

    Yeah i'd say he struck at the perfect time.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  16. Alixen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2003
    star 4
    Personally, I believe essence transfer is actually the superior method, if you can also stop the tendency for mental degradation/insanity.

    So, perfect physical immortality. Awesome. Except, nothing is perfectly immortal or eternal. Someone, even if it was in a thousand years, or ten, would have done something that would utterly destroy his body beyond the ability to regenerate/come back. A superweapon on his planet/solar system. A durasteel coffin into a sun. Hell, given how many lava planets there are in the galaxy (and how often something happens on Mustafar) he could even take a bad step into a pool of lava. Something in the mode of a super hero comic. With essence transfer, however, as long as you are paranoid as hell, you could have host bodies sleeping in practically every system in the galaxy. And once you have that down, there is no time limit on learning Plagueis method on top for added security.

    Its a couple of months back now, but I believe it was more a sense of superiority and disdain for Sith Sorcery that made him discard such methods himself, considering his way more scientific and pure. Immortality is immortality is immortality. Though, certain dark side fates are ones i'd rather die than suffer. Darth Sion for one.
    Last edited by Alixen, Aug 11, 2014
    CT-867-5309 likes this.
  17. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    The only thing Sidious lost when he killed Plagueis at that time was the knowledge of how to manipulate midichlorians to create or sustain life.

    And I'm not sure Plagueis would have shared it anyway. It's been awhile since I read the novel so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember any scene in which Plagueis was eager to teach that to Palpatine.

    And yeah, the scene in which they were celebrating Palpatine's ascendency by getting wasted, was perfect. Plagueis got a little overconfident there.
  18. darkchrono Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 4
    I doubt Disney will ever officially recognize the novel as canon unless an author gives several references in future novels that many of the things in the Darth Plagueis book really happened. However at the same time of all the EU books out there the 'Darth Plagueis' novel has likely the least chance of ever getting retconned. We officially know that there at least was a Darth Plagueis who was Palpatine's master. Also if they ever did try to retcon the novel and create a different backstory for Plagueis and Palpatine onscreen they would still have to bring back many of the characters from the prequel trilogy (chances of that happening are slim to none).

    In order to retcon it it would almost certainly have to happen in either a book, comic, or cartoon. And I couldn't see any of those three things happening until we are all old and gray and the memory of the Plagueis novel is almost nonexistent from the active Star Wars fanbase that they are aiming their stories towards.

    People can have their choice of dismissing it because it is legends or continuing to view it as canon until it gets overwritten, I'll choose to view all that stuff that happened prior to the movies as canon until Disney decides to tell a different backstory for those characters and time periods.
    Last edited by darkchrono, Aug 11, 2014
  19. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2007
    star 4
    To play Devil's Advocate "Darth Plagueis" has stuff that doesn't jive with other things and in some ways Canon has struck or would have struck back. In the Darth Maul comic based on unaired TCW arcs we would have learned that Darth Sidious had taken Mother Talzin under his wing for a time before finding her son, Maul, was more powerful and leaving her high and dry. Another thing: how do we now for sure that Plagueis had truly discovered how to manipulate midi-chlorins? Sidious could have told Anakin that little fact to make the boy uncomfortable since it is believed that he, Anakin. was created by midi-chlorins and lead into the question over Plagueis's fate.

    Sidious also is very smug when he recounts Plagueis's fate to Anakin. This could be him relishing in the memory of his victory over his master or he could just be pleased with himself for getting the attention of the Chosen One and having the knowledge that the end is near for either him and the Sith or it will be the end of the Jedi and the Republic.

    I think Sidious enjoys a good fight. If this is the case then why did he claim to kill his own Master while the Sith Master slept? Sidious might have seen an opportunity and struck or he and Plagueis had fought but Plagueis couldn't keep up and was knocked out with a Force Shove into a wall so Plagueis was "asleep" when Sidious dealt the finishing blow

    If Sidious killed Plagueis slept then this technically still makes Sidious big and bad since we are led to believe that trained Force Sensitives(Jedi, Sith) can still sense danger as they sleep.
  20. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    One answer for you - he wasn't certain he would win!

    I think it's accurate to say Sidious likes fighting, but only when the deck is stacked so much in his favour he can't possibly lose. Which also explains Endor - he'd had 30 years of unbroken victories, the idea he could lose had long gone out the window!

    In short: Think of the most malevolent, vicious, psychotic and deranged moggy you can and then amplify it by a few million - that's Sidious all over.
    Pfluegermeister and Lady_Misty like this.
  21. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Palpatine was the lawfully elected Supreme Chancellor. That crook Damask sought to extralegally invest himself as a sort of co-chancellor. Such an assault on the constitution of the Old Republic could not be countenanced. Palpatine did the right thing -- he struck a blow in the name of the Republic.

    Anybody who disagrees is plainly unpatriotic.
  22. Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2013
    star 2
    I think it's that plus the fact that he was facing an enemy he didn't control. In the prequels, a lot of his genius comes down to the fact that he controls both sides (the Senate and the Trade Federation, the Republic and the Separatists, the Jedi and the Sith). Most of the time, even if things don't go according to plan (e.g. the Naboo freeing their planet that quickly), it doesn't really matter.

    But with the Rebel Alliance, he's facing an enemy he doesn't control. He's basically been playing chess against himself for 30 years and suddenly has to face a real opponent.

    (For all that, he doesn't do that badly. Like I said in another thread, the Endor plan was solid, and it took some serious luck for the Rebels to overcome it).
    Last edited by Ackbar's Fishsticks, Aug 11, 2014
  23. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    He notes in ROTS, when getting ready to face down Windu and the other Master's that he'd been looking forward to it for a long time, and during that fight, as well as his fight with Yoda, he seems to be in what I can only describe as immense joy; as if he's having the time of his life. Place this alongside his duel with Maul and Savage, as well as his satisfaction at just watching Vader and Palpatine fight on the Second Death Star, and i'd agree, it's clear he likes fighting.
  24. Marco1907 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2013
    star 2
    Vader and Luke, you mean ?
  25. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4

    Yeah, my bad. :p