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Did Sidious really NEED Vader?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Valyn, Jun 11, 2006.

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  1. Valyn

    Valyn Jedi Master star 8

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    Mar 2, 2002
    After seeing the PT and the OT, did it really seem necessary for Sidious to groom Vader as a new apprentice in order to establish his Empire?

    I mean, what if Sidious had just kept Dooku as his apprentice and didn't stage his own kidnapping from Coruscant? Couldn't he still have destroyed the Jedi Order and gain control of the Senate without Vader?

    All Anakin really did, film-wise, was kill a bunch of children and Separatist officials--nothing Dooku or Greivious couldn't have handled.

    So I ask, was Vader really necessary?
     
  2. anakin_luver

    anakin_luver Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jul 26, 2005
    I don't think Vader was all that necessary in actually executing Order 66, for Palpatine had that planned in advance. But Palps was thinking in the long run. This was the Chosen One after all, the man who was known to have the hightest number of midi-chlorians, and therefore the greatest potential in becoming the most powerful Force-user ever. I'm not quite sure on Palpatine's knowledge about the prophecy, so I'll keep that out for now. My point is, Plapatine knew with someone so powerful on the Dark Side, the Empire would last long after he was dead (or possibly murdered). He wanted Vader for what he (Vader) could provide for Palpatine's Empire.
     
  3. Valyn

    Valyn Jedi Master star 8

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    Mar 2, 2002
    What exactly would Vader have been able to provide that, say, Dooku couldn't have?

    In no way have I seen any evidence suggesting that Anakin/Vader possessed even half of Palpatine's intelligence or cunning.

    Ultimately, it seems to me that Vader was just another Maul...only bigger and badder. Another hired gun (or whatever the proper term would be), so to speak.
     
  4. Valyn

    Valyn Jedi Master star 8

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    Mar 2, 2002
    double post
     
  5. Winston_Sith

    Winston_Sith Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 8, 2004
    Sure, Sidious needed Vader.

    You don't manipulate the Mids to create life, unless you really *need* to.

    Like has been said before, he expected Anakin to bring greater glory to the Sith, with his higher-than-Yoda Midichlorian count - which is only natural, since, IMO, he was almost *made* of Midichlorians, if not *by* the Midichlorians.[face_mischief]

    While Obi-Wan Kenobi pretty much put an end to the prospect of Vader as most-powerful Force-user of all time, Sidious had already seen that (at least) two Jedi *survived* Order 66, and I would think, rather suspected that there might be more renegade Jedi conspiring to bring an end to his rule.

    Vader was way powerful, even in the suit, so having him around was an advantage.

    Sidious really stopped *needing* Vader, with the advent of Luke.

    As part of the Sith "Skywalker Breeding Program" (or SBP, as I like to call it ;)), Luke was everything Anakin was, and should have been, and would make a fitting replacement (well, he could be *taller* - "Blast that whore, Padme, to blazes!!" - Darth Sidious in a weak moment) for the crippled, wheezing, hulk* that remained of Anakin Skywalker - but the half-Monster son of the Sith Skywalker Monster (or SSM, as I like to call it;)) touched the heart of his father, who made quick work of destroying the mad scientist who created him.

    *Darth Vader is my favorite SW character, so, I'm not talking trash!

    P.S. :::I mean, what if Sidious had just kept Dooku as his apprentice and didn't stage his own kidnapping from Coruscant? Couldn't he still have destroyed the Jedi Order and gain control of the Senate without Vader?

    No. Absolutely not. Count Dooku, or Darth Tyranus, or whatever you want to call him, did *NOT* have the positive face-recognition at the Jedi Temple that Anakin Skywalker had. Even if Mace didn't 'trust' him, he was still, as far as they knew, 'on their side'.

    The Jedi Temple slaughter had to be an 'inside job'.
     
  6. anakin_luver

    anakin_luver Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jul 26, 2005
    The Jedi Temple slaughter had to be an 'inside job'.

    Yes, I was thinking of that, but then I didn't quite understand why. I mean, when they see Anakin marching towards the Temple with hundreds of troopers behind him, with the Dark Side aura completely surrounding him, I think they would get the gist of what theis guy was actually up to.

    Valyn: there are a lot of things Anakin accomplished on screen. He became a Jedi even after he started training at the age of nine, which was said to be nearly impossible and dangerous. He was able to hold his own in the Naboo battle, and also saved thousands of lives by destroying the ship at the age of 9! He was knighted only 12-13 years after first being trained, when most Padawans (like Obi-Wan) were knighted around 25 years. Anakin also defeated Dooku, who is no push over (to say the least). Anakin also equaled a Jedi Council Member while fighting him right after turning to the Dark Side and becoming severely emotionally unstable.
     
  7. Valyn

    Valyn Jedi Master star 8

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    Mar 2, 2002
    Yes, but how was Vader instrumental for Sidious taking over the Republic and converting it into the Empire?

    If you think about it without abstract concepts and prophecies and potential powers that we never really see, you see that all Anakin really gave Sidious was an excuse to legally go after the Jedi and call them traitors.

    Anakin informed the Jedi that Palpatine was a Sith, which of course lured the Jedi into attacking him. Sidious, surviving the attack, now had the perfect excuse to persuade the Republic to side with him against the Jedi: "They attacked me! They scarred me! They're TRAITORS!"

    That is all Anakin really did to further Sidious's Imperial plans.

    Sidious, being as intelligent as he is, could probably have arrived at another reason to legally blacklist the Jedi Order without Anakin's ignorant assistance.

    In fact, Sidious's rule might have been longer had he not groomed Vader, as it was Vader who became his ultimate end.

    Yeah, Anakin achieved a lot, but so did Wedge in the OT. We just never really have any example as to why Anakin makes for a better Sith than Dooku, or how he could be of better use towards the conversion of the Republic into the Empire.

    Anakin is just another Darth Maul...a hired gun. And even then, he's still got nothing against Kenobi.

     
  8. Darthdias

    Darthdias Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 12, 2004
    Having Dooku or Grevious around would have been too complicated. Palpatine would have to explain to the Senate why the separatist leaders were suddenly working for him in his Empire. Easier to take someone from the inside, plus one that had the Force potential the be the most powerful ever.

    Of course, a better question could be: does the Emperor really need and apprentice at all? he has plenty of people doing his bidding in the Empire.
     
  9. Valyn

    Valyn Jedi Master star 8

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    Mar 2, 2002
    Good point.
     
  10. Malikail

    Malikail Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 17, 2004
    I think you've hit on something.

    Anakin wasn't really important to pulling off the plan, but he was important to sidous' ego.

    Have you ever seen that shiny new toy in the box at the store that you just had to have?

    that's anakin in sidious eyes.

    he's the 'golden boy' so to speak for the jedi that sidous has to take and turn into one of the most powerful sith ever just to stick the knife in and twist it a little more as he wipes them out.

    as to dooku, yes he could have finished the job, and he could have come to work for palpantine after the war.

    think about it, the war would end through diplomacy after the jedi are all dead and this in a way proves the reasons for the seperatists leaving correct.

    dooku is seen as an idealist, he rebelled because of corruption, and then put the blame for that corruption on the now deceased jedi.

    i can almost hear the speaches with the republic and seperatist leaders talking about 'healing wounds' and comming together to reform the republic without the jedi, the cause of all the problems....

    it would work, but then there is that shiny new toy for sidious to play with and he just can't resist....

    even if it could destroy him.
     
  11. DarthWolvo23

    DarthWolvo23 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2005
    The point that is being missed is that, if Kenobi hadn't severly injured him, Anakin would've become the most powerful Jedi/Sith of all time.

    Sidious hoped he & Vader would then be able to gain immortality through their power.

    It's all in the movie.

    "Together we can discover the secret"

    "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us"


    Sidious thought he & Vader could rule the universe for the Long-Term.
     
  12. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 24, 2001
    He needed Vader to help take out the Jedi. Palpatine was not the kind of person to put himself in harms way. And, he probably didn't want to spend time getting his hands dirty. Once the Jedi were gone, I don't see the benefit of Vader, much less turning Luke. More Force Users become a liablity to him -- Sith and Jedi both.
     
  13. Darthgordon

    Darthgordon Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Oct 1, 2005
    ...always two there are, a master and an apprentice....
    Palpatine could have pulled off the plan with either. He knew this. That's why he pitted Anakin and Dooku against each other. If Anakin wins he can take him as his new apprentice, if Dooku wins then it just proves how strong Dooku is, and two Jedi are out of the way.
    But why would he need Anakin? Well who was going to succeed him? Dooku? My God the man was older than Palpatine. The Sith pretty much acknowledge the fact that eventually their apprentices will either kill them or be killed. But they can take solace in the fact that the Sith will go on forever.
     
  14. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    You're missing the point. The Empire, and getting Anakin to do the things he did, are two interconnected means to the same end: power. Sidious craves power above all else. He even craves it above the condition of his own body. As long as he can have power, as long as he can rule and oppress other forms of life and gain a kick from doing it, he's happy. He leaches off Anakin like a vampire drawing blood from an innocent victim. The necessary context for this is the reveal scene: Sidious tells Anakin that he can "feel" his anger; this motif returns in Episode VI when he feels Luke's anger. That's a wave of ecstasy for Sidious. It bolsters his own power. The more people use the Dark Side, the more powerful Sidious becomes. He literally sucks up negativity, and then spits it back out, in a furious torrent of lightning. His very core is ravaged with the worst transgressions of a billion souls. He is pure evil because of it.

    You can't just think in physical terms when assessing Star Wars. You have to take into account the metaphysical aspects, too.
     
  15. sabarte

    sabarte Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 8, 2005
    He didn't need Vader to help take out the Jedi Temple. Really, the clones could probably have pulled it off themselves. Who's really left there? Younglings? Jocasta Nu? ;)

    Honestly, Sidious pretty much killed Dooku out of pure spite. Dooku was apparently willing to cooperate in training Anakin(the original plan as Dooku understands it), and doesn't appear to have been ambitious to the point of being an immediate threat to Sidious. Their skill-set pretty much complements each other. Of course, it may have been slightly more difficult to turn Anakin, but I don't think Sidious would find it too hard even then.
     
  16. darth_da

    darth_da Jedi Master star 1

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    May 27, 2005
    No, he didnt need Vader. Sidious got greedy and instead of settling for what he had and finishing off the one person who had the potential to topple him, he kept him around as a servant, confident that he could control him.

    Arrogance convinced Sidious he had a need for Darth Vader and it led to his own downfall.
     
  17. DarthMateous

    DarthMateous Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 1, 2002
    Sure Sidious needed Anakin. He was younger than Dooku and would ensure the Sith remain in control far longer than Dooku. Not only that, but had Anakin NOT been converted to Sith, he would've been able to destroy both Sidious and Dooku once he reached his full power as a Jedi. This would've made the Sith truly extinct. Instead, Sidious took the most powerful Jedi out of his way by converting him to the most powerful Sith. Thus, ensuring the Sith would remain in power for decades.
     
  18. anakin_luver

    anakin_luver Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jul 26, 2005
    I agree with you on that. The actual creation of the Empire was primarily based on Sidious and his brilliant planning. But Vader was always the "what could have been" of the Saga. He could have been the mightiest and most powerful Force-user which would have ensured quite a lot of years for the Sith to stay in power. Vader could have also assisted Sidious in discovering the secret to immortality. But Vader was definitely more than "just another Darth Maul."
     
  19. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved but if we work together I'm sure we can discover the secret."

    The way I interpreted it is that Palpatine wanted Anakin because with an apprentice more powerful than himself he'd be more likely to achieve the power to cheat death like Plagueis. Not so much for his saber skill or prowess in itself.
     
  20. sabarte

    sabarte Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 8, 2005
    I don't honestly see how power has anything to do with that. If only someone as powerful as Anakin can become ever become immortal, that doesn't help Sidious any. And for research, etc, you'd think a scholar or scientist would be far more useful than a raw powerhouse.
     
  21. anakin_luver

    anakin_luver Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jul 26, 2005
    A raw powerhouse of the Force.
     
  22. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    Sids even told Anakin they'd work together to discover the secret. I take that to mean either Palpatine was not as strong enough in the force as his master to cheat death and needed Anakin, or maybe he killed Plagueis prematurely before finding out his master's power and needed Anakin to, as he says, discover the secret. If Anakin had the greatest force potential he would be best suited to discovering that power. Knowing that the Sith are constantly infighting, keeping a more powerful apprentice around without any plan for himself seems like a dangerous move for Palpatine. Who knows, maybe if everything went smoothly and Anakin killed Obi-Wan and Palpatine discovered how to cheat death with the help of Anakin, maybe he would have turned on Anakin. That's just speculating that immortality is the driving force behind Palpatine's interest in Anakin, which isn't proven.
     
  23. Sickboy65

    Sickboy65 Jedi Master

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    May 28, 2004
    When I was a kid watching Return of the Jedi, I always thought that the Emperor's line "Strike me down with all of your hatred..." meant that the Emperor didn't care if he lived or died, as long as the Darkside would reign. I may have over-simplified this because I was only 8 at the time, but I thought "Wow, this guy is really evil. He's willing to die if it will make Luke evil, too."

    If you think of it this way, than his need for Vader is more apparent. Maybe he didn't need Vader to rule the galaxy, but he did need Vader (and later Luke) if he wanted the Sith to rule the galaxy forever.
     
  24. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    I believe the desire for the Sith to preserve their order is little more than superficial. Infighting is what lead to the decline of the Sith in the first place. The rule of two was meant to ensure the survival of the Sith by leaving the power of the master unchallenged but even the rule of 2 didn't eliminate sith apprentice ambition. The Sith are selfish and want to gain as much power as they possibly can and are afraid of losing it. There is no way Sidious would sacrifice himself to ensure the rise of a more powerful leader that is better suited to preserve the Sith. Rather he'd try to manipulate that power to make it his own and become more powerful himself.

    Perhaps it is not clear in the OT taken by itself but the PT pretty much shows Palpatine as a coward to a degree. He can give orders and remain an arrogant tyrant when behind the scenes but when he is faced with danger he becomes afraid.
     
  25. Winston_Sith

    Winston_Sith Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 8, 2004
    "I've got the brains, you've got the brawn, let's kill lots of Jedi!" (sorry for the lame 80's dance music reference)

    Palpatine, and the Sith, were the very extreme of mad scientists, if you think about it.

    I don't know much about Exar Kun (and he's EU, and doesn't really figure into anything), but I remember he built those crazy temples on Yavin.

    As far as Sidious goes, he (IMO) manipulated the Midichlorians to create... life - Anakin's. He may or may not have known the secret to "cheat death", but I bet you that he was just *this* bloody close! And he couldn't stand it!!

    He instigated the creation of the Grand (Clone) Amry - how much more "mad" scientist can ya get nowadays?

    He relied upon armies of droids and clones to accomplish his ends. Even when his "creature" fell at the hands of Obi-Wan Kenobi, What does he do? He puts the creature in a black Death Mask, simply to keep him alive, to please his own Ego that he can actually play God/Force, and save people from death.

    And I think Vader's phrase about the "Technological Terror" was actually said in disgust of his Master's reliance on Technology, while putting the Force on the back burner.

    After all, when Vader made his comment, he was on board that very same "Technological Terror", the Death Star, far away from his Master.

    And when that happens, the "Anakin" side tends to reveal himself a little more than when he's on Imperial Center, savvy?

    TESB is a prime example.
     
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