Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by darkchrono, Oct 1, 2013.
For What It's Worth.
Here is a youtube video with a cutscene from one of the most popular video games released this past year. Called The Last of Us. This game does a great job of giving the characters great development without sexualizing them in anyway. Some of you may have already played this game.
Oh, I loathe it as much as you do, just saying it's par for the course.
After reading the Courtship of princess Leia, I thought that the Witches of Dathomir were kind of a wasted opportunity. It was like an excuse to have hot amazons, but since they are supposed to be the 'good' guys on Dathomir why would they enslave men as husbands? I think if a Nightsister was paired with Luke, it would have made more sense and been reminiscent of the relationship between Ventress and Obi-wan. The nightsisters are interesting villains in the EU book, since the have to be kept away from all forms of space technology and the empire banned travel to their planet.
Overall I liked them more in TCW. And I only like the Nightsisters as villians, but not the nice Witches of Dathomir sect.
Nah. I think Luke and Teneniel had a good kind of chemisty.
Do you read Conan the Barbarian comics? He has a tendency to walk around in nothing but a loincloth, all the time, in all weathers
And Tarzan and John Carter. All of those Greek god and hero types went around with a lot of skin on show too... Lots of comic book heroes wear next to nothing... Action heroes always have their shirts off.
Tarzan is the only one of those guys that always wears a only loincloth. Conan usually wears a loincloth, true, but even in the original 1930's stories he had a variety of outfits including full suits of armor, and John Carter where's an upper-body harness like He-Man.
@Gamiel do you collect Conan comics? I have been for I'd say 5 years or so and I just got Marvel #'s 1-8 and a bunch in the teens and 20's this summer at a thrift shop (also Kull and John Carter #1's). You can imagine the look on my face.
hahahahaha wow I really need to fix whatever in my Firefox is preventing me from editing. "John Carter where's an upper-body harness," nice one, genius!
That's why I wrote "Conan the Barbarian comics" since he is much more dressed in the original stories
I would not say I collect them but I have inherit my aunt's and cousins' Conan collection
EDIT: Also, if people want to discuss Dathomirian fashion there is a thread in the EU section just for that kind of thing
@Gamiel you got me on the comics, specifically in the Conan the Barbarian title he was usually in a loincloth for sure. King Conan/Conan the King was basically the opposite.
Right-click on edit and 'Open in a New Tab', buddy.
As Conan and John Carter etc., providing examples doesn't mean there aren't tenfold as many female characters wearing much less in literature/comics/film/television. I'm just saying that I think females show skin much more in these mediums.
@JackG : Exactly.
I can't see anyone saying that "If you really want to see a woman in a sexy outfit, there are these one or two comics you can read."
He asked for showed skin, not sexiness; sexy outfits are usually the one that don't show to much skin. To my knowledge it is not just about the cloths, it is also about the drawing stile and the pose the person is in. I am actually not certain if women show more skin than men in literature/comics/film/television the problem is that to often their showing of skin is sexualized unlike when men do it
I'd suggest that men tend to show more skin in fiction, especially action genres. It's rarely criticised for being 'sexualised' when it happens. Very few people complain that men are being objectified when Bruce Willis or Arnie or Stallone strip off. It's just an accident of history that visible nipples are taboo for women but not for men.
Regarding comics, female forms tend to be as crazily stylised and exaggerated as male forms. A Superman/Hulk physique is just as unattainable for men as a Catwoman/Wonderwoman/Barbie physique is for women.
And He-Man shows a lot more skin than She-Ra!
I'd say technically since more of women's bodies has to be covered men probably do show more skin overall.
This is a false equivalency, with the primary difference being that He-Man, Superman, and the multitude of characters Bruce Willis, or Swarzenegger, or Stallone portray, are created through the lens of being a male power fantasy. Boys and men want to be Superman. They want to be badasses. They want to be these legendary superpowered characters. Catwoman, on the other hand—to pick one example—is not generally a female power fantasy, but a male sex fantasy. Her creators are often more concerned that she exists more to be sexy and appealing to straight male fans, than to be a character most women want to project themselves onto. It's not whether she's a badass that becomes the focal point, it's whether she's hot. This is a problem, though it can be mitigated by strong characterization in the writing.
The way the latest survivor horror shows and games depict women is really top notch. In them they still have attractive women in them but they are not depicted as sex symbols by any means. They are doing the exact same thing the men are doing (which is what they would be doing in a real life scenario as well) and that is they are killing to survive.
Anybody who has seen The Walking Dead or played The Last of Us would probably agree that those stories depict the women pretty well and accurately to what they would really be like in a scenario like that.
I somewhat disagree with the notion that comparing men and women's skin to clothing ratio is a false equivalence - except to the extent that historical gender stereotypes survive in contemporary culture. Claiming false equivalence between men and women can often be a bit dodgy.
I completely disagree with your sweeping generalisations about 'male power fantasy' though. It doesn't really stand up to much scrutiny. To claim that "boys and men want to be Superman" seems like one of those fashionable-in-the-70s opinions that you can't really prove or disprove - and doesn't really help resolve anything even if it were true (which I think is highly unlikely).
He-Man really spells out another point too... These guys were going around in sex harnesses and bondage gear. I think it's possible for male characters to be designed 'hot' by men, for men.
Sure, some men have power fantasies, but the world would be very different if women didn't lust for power too. You seem to imply that females don't identify with characters created for men, well, that's clearly not true now if it ever really was before. James Bond is a common female fantasy figure (according to my extensive research of chatting to people down the pub). A lot of Mill & Boon writers were men. That awful 50 Shades was written by a man and has earned the title of 'mum porn' due to its popularity with women of a certain age.
Sometimes I can't move in my local comic shops because of all the girls reading manga, xmen, or the current in-vogue vampire franchise or whatever. Some even like DC comics. What is the world coming to?
If you look at footage from any comic of scifi convention you will see females dressing in as wide a variety of character costumes as the men. You'll see men dressed as women and women dressed as men, too. People fantasise about sex and power, I don't think there's much of a gender divide at all. Taboos and ridiculous historic practices, yes, but the geek-chic thing has shown that women can be as enthusiastic for traditionally male-orientated genres as the next manchild.
I think that terms like 'male power fantasy' come loaded with prejudice. Showing skin on a lady is 'sexualising' because it's assumed that men regard ladies skin as sexual. It's the same justification for forcing the womenfolk to cover up because the menfolk will naturally (and justifiably) rape them if they don't. It's a notion that degrades, prejudges and vilifies men (ironically to perpetuate the patriarchy).
Believe me, I'm not one of these 'white middle class men are the most downtrodden minority' idiots, I was raised to be a good feminist - and grew up hearing a lot of male bashing by a lot of Millie Tant types at Labour/union meetings and whatnot. An argument from prejudice is crap - no matter how right-on, or how noble your intentions are.
Actually v-2 I think Mia's line of thinking is spot on for the most part. The best example of male power fantasies are the WWF/WWE. Those guys aren't dressed like that to be sex objects. They are made up like that to look tough for young male viewers. I remember back when Arnold Schwarzenager was in his prime and a lot of young guys would talk about all his muscles. They weren't talking about his muscles in the sense that they thought he was hot or anything. They talked about his big muscles because his big muscles made him tough.
12-17 year old guys are the prime targets for this because they are the age when their testosterone is kicking in and they themselves want to be bigger and badder. So creating images for them that are big and bad is natural.
Also, while I won't speak for all women...a guy who is in shape is attractive. A guy with unnatural obviously-steroid-enhanced muscles, not so much, he just looks ridiculous, like he's trying too hard. I don't know why He-Man or any other figure whose most prominent feature is his muscles, would be designed to attract women.
Which is why when they do create male sex symbols for women viewers they often aren't overly muscular or even always overly good looking. What they are in most cases is very charismatic and confident. That's why the guy who often isn't afraid to kiss the girl will get the girl.