Did TCW change the nightsisters that much from their EU depiction

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by darkchrono, Oct 1, 2013.

  1. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    What about this guy:



    I dunno, I just needed a flimsy excuse to post it somewhere. I can't watch it and not laugh.
  2. darkchrono Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 4
    Lol, you know a good number of those wrestlers from the '80's and '90's are dead now because of drug use. Ultimate Warrior is one of them I believe.
  3. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
  4. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Have seen her drawn by Darwyn Cooke? If not try to get his work, Cooke trully give her, and everything else he draw, justice

    Also do you know any comics with something like a "female power fantasy" that you can recommend? And to try to keep this Star Wars; which artist do you think draw the best SW women?
  5. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I rather like Cooke's work with Catwoman, but then I also enjoy his art style in general. It's got a cool retro animation look to it all that I've really liked since A New Frontier.

    Visually, I think it's a difficult issue. Protagonists are almost all beautiful, attractive people by convention. When it comes to comics, the main issue that I have is against awful, anatomically-straining poses that serve no purpose beyond exploiting those good looks for shots that can capitalize on the maximum amount of boobs and ass per panel or page. I think the different ways a scene is set can make all the difference in the word. Let everyone have something nice to look at; let's not make it so ridiculous that the story stops. This article puts it better than I probably could: Art and Superheroines: Psylocke as drawn by Greg Land vs Jerome Opena. And ultimately, though it doesn't excuse the issue, personally I'm almost always willing to excuse some gratuitous ass if the characterization is strong and the story is good.

    As for Star Wars, my favorite artist in general is easily Chris Trevas. The man's art is gorgeous, and he draws very realistic women in a variety of ways appropriate to the character. Sadly, he mostly does stand-alone stills, like for reference books or short story illustrations. As far as comics go, I adore Jan Duursema but fully acknowledge that all of her female characters are stunning, busty, supermodel-looking women that are often dressed in mostly reasonable but always sexy outfits. But I was very pleasantly surprised to see the run on Knight Errant, where the team of artists really got that this was a series with Kerra Holt, female Jedi Knight, as a protagonist, not cheesecake. Depending on your tastes, yeah, she's attractive. Yet she's there to be a badass, she's there to save the day, she's there to fight some Sith. She doesn't have time to pose half bent over with her back twisted around so the invisible reader can see her boobs and ass at the same time. It was refreshingly awesome, I've gotta admit.
  6. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Thanks for the tips. Have you read Modesty Blase? If so what do you think?
  7. Convor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 2
    Edit created another post. Sorry :(
    Last edited by Convor, Oct 6, 2013
  8. Convor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 2
    Just popping in to say that's wrong. And also to state that I'm very amused to see this thread fall back to the same exposed skin discussion we've had over Ahsoka a thousand times over.

    My two cents is that the image JediGirl posted is sexualized to a certain extent - there's certainly a chance for a wardrobe malfunction when that nightsister finishes her spin. However sexuality can be a powerful weapon, and it's one I can picture the nightsisters utilizing very effectively. So I don't really have a problem with it.

    And as a tangent, Ellie is easily my favorite female protagonist in any video game. Neil Druckmann gave a great talk about designing her character in this video (skip to the 35 minute mark).
    Last edited by Convor, Oct 6, 2013
    Mia Mesharad likes this.
  9. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    That is not a nightsister but Teneniel Djo of the Singing Mountain clan:-B
    Last edited by Gamiel, Oct 6, 2013
    Mia Mesharad likes this.
  10. JediGirl_Angelina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2003
    star 3
    Are we still talking about that picture? [face_tired] I'm a girl and I see no problems with that, it looks to be some official art from a book or comic, not some erotic fan art (it's from wookiepedia). And for the record, it's harmless compared to what characters in series like Xena wore.
    Senator Kelberry and V-2 like this.
  11. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    I was going to mention pro wrestling in my previous post, but I thought I was in danger of writing an essay. As you bring it up though... :D

    I can empathise with the 'male power fantasy' idea in relation to pro wrestling much more than any animal themed or gimp suit clad super-character, but I'm still not fond of the term as it infers the existence of a morally inferior gender.

    Wrestling has certainly appealed to young boys for some time. I'd be reluctant to explain that in terms of hormones (girls don't much like it when it's their hormones being criticised to explain their stereotypical behaviour, so why should boys be fair game). I don't deny hormones are a factor, but boys and girls don't confirm to cultural stereotypes purely by chemical means...

    ...It's a cliché to point out how girls are given fashion dolls and plastic babies, while boys get pop guns and instructed to climb trees. We're sold these stereotypes from birth, and by the time we're interested in forging our own personalities, it's no surprise that we're attracted to the 'correct' genres...

    I deny that "those guys are not dressed like that to be sex objects". Rick Rude, Ric Flair and Shawn Michaels were overtly marketed as just that. Dusty Rhodes used nauseating sexually intimidating moves in his mixed gender matches ('The American Dream' indeed - nobody mixes sex and violence like the USA!). Wrestling of all kinds, as well as boxing, etc - they all fall under the umbrella cliché of the homoerotic. And that homo part can be a matter of perspective; girls like to watch men knock **** out of each other too.

    ...And increasingly, boys like to watch women fighting. I really dig the women's pro wrestling - but I hate what the WWE did to establish the format. Playboy bunny pillow fights and similarly demeaning routines are depressing, as is the concept of 'Divas' and 'Knockouts'. I don't think pro wrestling is doing much to aid the cause of women in sport, or equality in general.

    TNA... Their females are among the most talented wrestlers I've ever seen, but it's sad that they're chosen for their looks at least as much as their ability. It's sad that someone as talented and charismatic as ODB has to play the role of an alcoholic self destructive because she's a few dress sizes bigger than Gail Kim.

    I think I understand why the wrestling promoters differentiate male and female bouts as they do. Wrestling fans seem to resent being reminded that they're watching greased up semi-naked mens giving and receiving violent looking cuddles, but it's totally fine if they're watching greased up ladies doing the same. Stereotypically speaking, obviously.

    This is the point at which I have most respect for the concept of male power fantasy. It's obviously sexist in a way that's not so apparent when looking at the male wrestling - but IMO that's only because we're conditioned to believe that greased up naked men holding each other in a well choreographed routine isn't at all gay, and even if it was, it would be awful to enjoy it on that level.

    Acts like Exotic Adrien Street, Adrien Adonis and Golddust (who all had similar outrageously camp homosexual gimmicks) got booed and jeered by the crowds, and when the overtly masculine Big Daddy/Jim Duggan/Roddy Piper promised the audience a good old fashioned queer bashing, the roof was raised with cheers. When Rick Rude simulated sex acts over his unconscious male opponents, the crowd booed. When Dusty Rhodes simulated rape of his female opponent, the crowd cheered. I don't pretend to understand what made any of this behaviour socially acceptable (and I'm not sure this stuff would have got over so well outside the USA, even in the 80s), but I notice that when Wrestlemania did their deplorable 'girl on girl' Playboy routines, there were no boos to be heard. To me, this indicates that pro wrestling is simultaneously exploiting numerous and conflicting sexual and gender stereotypes. It's not unique in this respect, a lot of fiction does the same damn thing. Comparing pro wrestling to the old Italian opera is quite justified, IMO.

    Sex object would be the perfect description for pro wrestlers, and it's tempting to use sexist terms to describe that whole scene. I'm not sure how useful it is, though..

    Now, just because there's an exploitable market for this manipulative exploitative entertainment doesn't prove that all media is projected through the lens of 'male power fantasy'. I'd be happier using that term if it wasn't so loaded; it might be useful when discriminating between a female and male power fantasy, if we could empirically identify a difference of course.

    ....So, on to Arnie. Boys, as I said, are fed masculine propaganda from birth. We poor souls are expected to aspire to be like our role models, in (I suspect) exactly the same way girls are. I think girls might be more susceptible to this, but I'm not sure - I'm aware that I'm biased. We certainly hear more reports of girls injuring themselves by trying to be thin than we do about boys trying to be BEEFCAAAAkE. Eating disorders and body image issues do seem to be a traditionally female problem - but there may be all sorts of causes. Women's magazines selling female body images definitely outsell crap like Men's Health and other 'Not-Gay' magazines which promote the viewing of photos of oiled up muscle men.

    I used to think the female fashion scene was controlled by men, which I suppose would be a Marxist power fantasy. I think I'm rambling. Did I have a point? Nature v nurture or something. How to tie all this back to Star Wars is a task I leave to the reader, if there are any left.

    tl;dr:
    • Wrestling is mega gay and sexually exploitative of both men and women.
    • There's more of a cultural impetus to conform to gender stereotypes than a chemical or 'natural' predestination.
    • Exploitation of sexual/gender stereotypes is like a self perpetuating social contract, or something. Maaan.
  12. darkchrono Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 4
    Yep. I just watched that video the other day and thoroughly enjoyed it. I however am not so fond of what he said his interpretation of the ending was. Not that I have any problem with Ellie having problems trusting Joel in the future and their relationship deteriorating because of what he did but I am hoping that if they do make future games they don't have Ellie go on some monumentally stupid teenage rant and leave the confines of a safe environment she was invited into because she is having daddy issues.

    I'm hoping that when he said that Ellie feels like she has to leave Joel he wasn't implying that she has to leave the camp as well.
  13. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    @V-2 while I'm all for feminism, calling something "mega gay" as an insult is a slur against LGBT people.
  14. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    Then it's lucky for LGBT people that I'd never do that, @Dark Lord Tarkas.

    I love wrestling, and it's mega gayness. I'm not very fond of the way it encourages homophobia and objectifies people. I am strangely fascinated by it, though.
  15. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
  17. Convor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 2