Saga Did TFA make the OT pointless?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Weavile, Oct 22, 2017.

  1. Darth Weavile Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2017
    star 1
    Okay, so if you read my posts, you probably know that I'm not a fan of The Force Awakens. Possibly my biggest criticism is how it made pretty much everything the characters in the original trilogy and everything they fought for pointless.

    First off, the Sith and the Empire are back. Sure, they may not go by the name Sith, but let's face it- it's the same thing. So Vader's redemption was for nothing. Second, the "First Order" is seemingly the Empire, but even worse, seeing how their Death Star is much, much bigger, and destroyed several planets. Everything Luke and the rebels fought against in the OT was pointless!

    And then, the main characters' happy ending was absolutely crushed and destroyed into bits. Luke failed his apprentice (like Obi-Wan), and destroyed the Jedi Order (like Anakin) in another Jedi Purge, and Luke goes into hiding. In the new trailer, he says the Jedi need to end! Guess ROTJ was for nothing! Luke's story was for nothing apparently too.

    And of course, Han and Leia. Han goes back to smuggling and splits with Leia. Then he gets killed by his son. Heartwarming. Leia is head of the new Rebel Alliance, living a seemingly depressing life. I get why, seeing as all those hours put in to fight the Empire was good for like 30 years of peace (if that). And of course, Chewie has no where to go except back home to Kashyyyk I guess.

    Even the droids get the short end of the stick, with C-3P0 depressed about R2 (and with a red arm... for meme purposes) and R2 so depressed he shuts down (I see why, I felt that way myself in the theater).

    This is just another huge reason why I hate this film. Everything every character fought for to restore peace to the galaxy was seemingly destroyed. The happily-ever after ending of ROTJ has no significance with TFA, since everything got so much worse after.

    IDK, what are y'all thoughts on this?
    Last edited by Darth Weavile, Oct 22, 2017
  2. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    I was not expecting a happily-ever-after ending, and the New Republic was pretty much what I expected. They have no clue how to run a galaxy and made it easy for the First Order to take over.

    And I’ll have the unpopular opinion on this one—I thought Starkiller Base was kind of cool. I liked that they managed to terraform an entire planet to pull its energy from its sun and become a destructive force.

    I was OK with Han and Leia having marital problems, that happens, but Han going back to smuggling was ridiculous. There is no reason he could not have been a divorced man who was the GFFA equivalent of a NASCAR CEO, which is what he had become in Bloodline. As someone pointed out in another thread, the Empire was not in charge, Han did not need to smuggle in order to subvert an oppressive government anymore.

    I also really, really did not like that their only child was a mass murderer.
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  3. Darth_Articulate Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    No, TFA did not make the OT pointless.

    A) The Empire was the primary ruling power of the ENTIRE GALAXY. It got that way through insidious manipulation of the system already in place in the Republic by the Sith. The Empire wasn't the opponent of the Republic, it WAS the Republic gone bad. The First Order, by contrast, is openly at war *with* the Republic. It is an even sided war now and neither side has complete dominance of the galaxy.

    2) We all know Lucas's "symphonic" rhyming schematic for Star Wars trilogies is that you start with the same basic story and then go off in a unique direction. TFA was the start so it had familiar elements, but as the trilogy continues, the unique aspects of these elements is likely to unfold. Patience.
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  4. Darth Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 6
    In that case you were never going to be happy with a continuation of the story. As soon as further episodes were decided upon things had to go bad again. Very bad, otherwise there are no stakes, no drama & no tension within the new story. You can be sure that whatever ST Lucas would've proposed would have involved some considerable misery for the main characters & the galaxy before things got better again at the end of the new trilogy. As far as the OT is concerned, no it definitely is not pointless. From all accounts the galaxy saw around 30 yeas of relative peace. The Starkiller attack was the first major offensive since shortly after RotJ. That's reason alone to validate the celebrations at the end of that movie.
    I agree, as a concept & as a design I think it's great. It's easily the best conceived & most interesting "Death Star" type of weapon. However as a plot device it's undermined by being the 3rd of its kind to appear within 4 consecutive movies. If it had showed up in Ep IX I don't think there would be any major complaints about it.
    Last edited by Darth Downunder, Oct 22, 2017
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  5. Darth Weavile Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2017
    star 1
    I vehemently disagree that they had to make everything terrible for the main characters of the OT to make a good story. They didn't even need the OT characters, it could have been set 1,000 years in the future. They could've shown some originality.

    And no, I don't think 30 years of peace validates the sacrifices of the Rebellion, especially after 1,000 generations under the Old Republic.
  6. Darth Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 6
    Well you're on your own there. Lucas envisioned a passing of the baton from Luke's generation to the next as far back as the early 80's. The story you propose would not be Ep VII. It would be some new saga, which could be a good idea as a separate thing. A true ST needs to deal with Anakin/Vader's descendants & how they cope with his legacy.
  7. Darth Weavile Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2017
    star 1
    Then Lucas realized it was a bad idea, and wrapped up the saga at 6 films.
  8. Darth_Articulate Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    You guys, seriously. The Rebellion took down an EMPIRE.
    That's like saying defeating Hitler was pointless, because look, here comes the Taliban. Is the Taliban worse that the Nazi's? In their practices, probably, but not in their *scope*. The First Order is probably more vicious than the Empire, but they have *not supplanted the government*. They have not corrupted the souls of the *entire galactic population*. They are more like the separatists, except this time probably what they appear to be, rather than a distraction. This seems to be the first SW trilogy about two even sides legitimately battling over dominance of the galaxy.


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  9. Darth Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 6
    No, he hedged his bets & created an ending which could stand as the happily ever after ending or could be continued at some point. He then chose to continue the story even before he sold LFL. Also, if you read this thread you'll find that alot of the key elements, including a new evil group who evolved from the Empire were conceived by he & Arndt while they were developing the story.

    Besides all of that, it was never realistic for the post RotJ galaxy to be some kind of peaceful utopia. For one thing, a galaxy spanning Empire was never going to vanish into thin air just bcs its leader was killed. Let's recall that as far back as the early 90's Lucas personally sanctioned the Zahn novels, which also included an Imperial Remnant. That's bcs it makes the most sense for that to happen.
  10. Avnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2007
    star 4
    Did it make the OT pointless? Good lord...

    I thought TFA was a valiant effort -not as good as the OT- but light years better than the PT!
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  11. PymParticles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2014
    star 5
    No, he was working on Episode VII for some time before he sold Lucasfilm to Disney. Partially to sweeten the deal, sure, but he was invested enough in what he was doing to feel a bit salty at Lucasfilm for evidently abandoning his treatments (which we know they didn't do in as drastic a way as he insinuated, but that's another topic entirely).

    But on topic, did The Force Awakens make the original trilogy pointless? I love the OT. I also love The Force Awakens. However, putting all that aside and instead looking simply about what each film says, no, I don't think it did. My reason why can be summed up like this: your worst days don't make your best days unimportant, and your greatest failures don't invalidate your greatest successes. The film actually addresses that idea head on, with this exchange between Han and Leia.

    Han: "It wasn't all bad, was it? Some of it was... good."
    Leia: "Pretty good, yeah."

    They're having this conversation as Han is about to risk his life to help blow up yet another planet-destroying superweapon, only this time with the added mission of trying to convince his fallen son to come home. That's dire and devastating, and yet amidst all that these two people who have been through the ringer and back are taking a moment to reminisce about happier times, and they do so with a smile, because what they're going through now can't take away or diminish the years of happiness they experienced together. Similarly, nothing can take away or diminish our heroes' victory at the end of Return of the Jedi. Not the First Order, not Kylo Ren, not any degree of set-backs or tragedies. At the end of Return of the Jedi, when they're together and celebrating and happy, nothing can take that moment away from any of them. There will always be another bad guy to defeat, there will always be another great evil to conquer, there will always be another tragedy to overcome, and historically peace is less a permanent state than it is a lull between wars. Bad things happen to all of us, and sometimes things just don't work out the way we thought they were meant to. But that doesn't make the good meaningless; rather, it means the good matters even more so.
  12. Martoto77 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    You've just stated your opinion as fact about a dozen times but you don't know?
    Last edited by Martoto77, Oct 22, 2017
  13. Harbour Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2015
    star 3
    When it comes to OT character - yes. Leia stagnates, stucked into her war princess mode, Han degraded back into smuggler, Luke seems to degrade back into whiny boy, but now he is a whiny grandpa.
    When it comes to Galaxy - we still dont know how much systems FO occupies to tell.
    Last edited by Harbour, Oct 22, 2017
  14. Martoto77 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    The point of the OT was so Lucas could become independently wealthy enough to finance and make his own serious art films.
    Last edited by Martoto77, Oct 22, 2017
  15. {Quantum/MIDI} Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2015
    star 5
    (GUH)

    THX1138 is his only really serious art film if we are talking about the elements of the movies themselves.
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  16. Martoto77 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    That was Lucas's stated intention. So direct your (guh) at the author. In fact (guh) was Lucas's reaction to anyone asking about more Star Wars movies after 1983.

    Besides that he has stated that ROTJ finished the father/son story of Luke and Vader. So if the point was to conclude that father son story then he accomplished that and nothing since has changed that.
    Last edited by Martoto77, Oct 23, 2017
  17. Outsourced Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2017
    star 4
    Short answer? No.

    Long answer? Nooooooooooo.
  18. Darth Weavile Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2017
    star 1
    Would you like me to put "IMO" after every point I make?

    And I put IDK there because I don't know other people's opinions on the topic. Mine are pretty crystal clear.
  19. Martoto77 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4


    Since you asked. Do you actually care about any other opinions posted besides those that are the same as yours?



    The implication of all your entirely specious points is that the story of the seventh episode of Star Wars was about how Han and Princess Leia are happily retired veterans with no difficulties to face in their lives. They would be perfect parents and nothing would ever threaten their happiness.

    Luke Skywalker immediately becomes a teacher and successfully trains schools of young Jedi all on his own and none of them can be tempted by the darkside in any scenario.


    That no person or organisation in the galaxy would contemplate or attempt to fight back at the the Alliance's regime change in the former Empire which was formerly the Old Republic. Or that no faction would try to take advantage of the New Republic's attempt to avoid another war at all costs.

    That no regime with militaristic ambitions of conquest would contemplate or seek to develop another super weapon, a better one in order to make a pre-emptive strike against the larger force.

    So essentially you think there should be no protagonists, no antagonists, nothing lost, nothing to win, no errors and no difficulties, i.e. no story in the galaxy post Endor because it diminishes the fun everyone seemed to be having at the Ewok luau.



    I don't know what they teach in schools these days but for my generation it was clear from the history of the 20th century that we were given that, essentially, a civil war erupted in Europe in 1914 between sides with varying imperialist ambitions or assets to protect. There was an armistice made in 1918 following the overthrow or abdication of the defeated power's Imperial ruler. The ceasefire lasted for thirty years until another imperialist regime recommenced hostilities with an aggressive war of conquest, taking advantage of the victorious powers from 1918's desire to preserve peace at almost any cost.

    But the First Order threatening the new Galactic republic somehow means that the OT was pointless or never happened. :confused:
    Last edited by Martoto77, Oct 23, 2017
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  20. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 6
    No, but what happened in TFA didn't need to happen, and was pretty pointless itself.
  21. DrDre Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2015
    star 4
    TESB didn't need to happen, since ANH was a self-contained story. The PT didn't need to happen, since the OT has a self-contained story. However, apparently there's still enough of a vested interest in the franchise for it to continue. Some will jump on the bandwagon, and others will stick to past glories, or find other interests. To me TFA wasn't pointless. I enjoyed the movie, and want to see where TLJ will take these characters. Hopefully they'll come up with something original, and if not that it will at least be entertaining. If for some reason I dislike the film, I will stick to past glories, and leave it to others to see the point in future stories.
    Last edited by DrDre, Oct 23, 2017
  22. Martoto77 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    Which was the main point of TFA.

    You would need to have a very narrow and trite idea of what the "point" of the OT or ROTJ was if TFA is supposed to have totally undermined it.
  23. DrDre Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2015
    star 4
    Exactly, if for some reason you hated TESB and by extension ROTJ, does this make ANH pointless? I don't think so. It can still be your favourite movie ever. You can choose to ignore any sequel. If for some reason you don't see the point, I guess you're not it's target audience.
    Last edited by DrDre, Oct 23, 2017
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  24. Bazinga'd Porg Overlord of the WNU, CT, and Saga Forums

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    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 6
    Stop with flaming other peoples opinions. Your rope is getting shorter by the day. And this is not directed solely at @Martoto77

    @anakinfansince1983
  25. redxavier Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    One of the interesting themes to emerge from TFA, through Maz, is that the fight against evil never stops. It is up to every generation to continue the fight against evil, either when it is dominating or when it is threatening to emerge. But what's more, the developments of the post-ROTJ setting challenge our expectations of infallible heroes; decades after winning and keeping the galaxy peaceful, Luke and Leia drop the ball. Just looking at this from an optimist's view though, isn't marvellous that only after their failure that evil arises again?

    Aside from that, as others have noted, creating sequels, which by necessity must have drama and conflict, you inherently 'diminish' the achievements because the bad guys have to come from somewhere. It sounds like you simply didn't want a sequel. There is no possible ROTJ sequel that doesn't do what you hate about TFA.