Saga Did TFA make the OT pointless?

When have specific reasons ever been given for things being in one film and not the other? Not in the films.

Something that we never got an inkling of until over twenty years after ANH. No X Wings or Y Wings appear in the PT. Things that are a few years behind them appear. There's nothing that tells us or implies that the rebel ships in the OT are already out of date

The new Republic don't want to officialy be connected with the resistance. The resistance have to make do. And they aren't the exact same ships either. And the resistance isn't the Alliance.And they aren't the same ships.

30 years of peace. And they are changed.

If they truly were just being nostalgic, they'd want to cover everything in the OT. Being specifically ANH nostalgic at the expense of ROTJ doesn't make any sense. It is just a spurious conclusion.

Good for TPM. That film was set firmly in an entirely different era and climate. There is no story reason to do what TPM did. And it won't unless you are demanding a specific type of story purely so that they do what they did in TPM. But that's getting it backwards. Story first.

 

Having a completely new era is what the ST should be about, otherwise there's no point doing it.

And yes, this:


is fundamentally the exact same ship as this:


The only tiny difference is the engine design, which is from the original X-wing design. It's not big enough for me to call it a new ship

As for the TIEs, the only difference for those is change of colour.

ANH doesn't directly state that the X-wings and Y-wings are old ships, but that's strongly implied by a) Their grubbiness and general dirty look compared to the TIEs, and b) the simple fact that there's nowhere else the Rebels could have got them. The PT just reinforced this obvious implication

 

The Tie Fighters in TFA have rear guns as proved by Finn and Poe at the start of the movie? Want to try again?

 

Does that make a jot of difference to the films though? If I said the TIEs in ANH had rear guns too would it matter? They didn't even use the rear guns in TFA, except in the Finn-Poe escape scene, which would have been identical if Finn had been firing from the front or back.

 

You're talking about a totally different aesthetic.

 

Well yeah. The current ST's aesthetic is just OT 2.0, when it should be something different. Otherwise there's no point doing an ST in the first place.

 

Where in ANH or the OT is it said or implied that the X-Wings are old Imperial ships?
They are in some ways more advanced than TIE's.
They have shields and can fly in hyperspace, something regular TIE's can not.
TIE are most likely cheaper and can be made more quickly.
Quantity over quality.

Also, why the Resistance has older ships, there is a story reason for that.
The Republic supports the Resistance but not openly and under the table.
So if the resistance were to have new, top of the line republic ships and fighters, the Republic's support would become obvious.
So they have to make do with older stuff.

@Visivious Drakarn

ANH disagrees with you.
It is made quite clear in that film that the means the empire has used to keep order and maintain control is through the Senate.
The Senate is the means that the emperor used until the DS was ready.
When that happened he dispensed with any pretense of democracy and being a good guy and ruled through force and fear.
So it wasn't really about the rebellion growing stronger, the senate would be disbanded as soon as the DS was ready.

Without the Senate, the fleet can not keep order or maintain control.
The DS is required and the fear it creates. That is what would keep the systems in line.

Again, the means the empire has used to control the galaxy is via the senate.
The empire had to watch it's step and could not do anything it wanted.
This point is made more than once in the film.
One officer remarks that it is dangerous to hold Leia.
Vader arranges for a fake distress signal to be sent and the senate told lies about what happened.
So even he could not afford to disregard the senate entirely.

As long as the senate was around and had some influence, a lot of systems were kept in check.
They did not openly rebel as they thought that they still had a say.
But once the senate is dissolved, now they know exactly what the emperor is after.
But as long as the DS was there, they would not dare to defy him.
So with NO DS and with NO senate, the empire would likely face massive uprisings.

So in ESB, the empire should have been much weaker and the rebellion should have been much stronger. But it is almost the reverse, the empire is as strong if not stronger and the rebels are weaker.

From the ANH opening crawl.

Restore freedom to the galaxy..
Sounds like the destruction of the DS was not "only".

As I said above, the DS was the key to keeping the systems in line and prevent massive uprisings.
With it gone, the empire is now weakened.
They dissolved the senate, showing everyone what kinds of people they really were.
And showed the DS and what it could do, kill billions.
And then it was blown up.
So the biggest and most awesome weapon the empire has, has just been destroyed by a small band of rebels.
That is rather embarrassing.
So the empire has dropped the pretense of being nice people but also lost their big, bad weapon and the means to keep order.
The Empire would not look that strong after this.
And thus many systems would feel emboldened to rise up against them.

And what does ANH say about the fleet vs the rebels, that the rebels are dangerous to the fleet.
So yes the imperial fleet is a danger to the rebels but the opposite is also true.

And keep in mind that without the DS, this fleet would now be called to try and keep order and keep loads of systems from rising up against them.

So ESB did in some ways push the reset button and made the victory in ANH seem like it didn't much matter.
The crawl made it sound like the loss of the DS would end the empire.
And had no sequel been made, that is what people could assume happened and have a happy ending.

It would have been possible to make an sequel to ANH were the empire is severely weakened and the rebels are much stronger and now they are more on even terms.

It don't cry foul over ESB doing what it did as it is a great and very well made film.
But I won't pretend that it didn't in some ways push the reset button after ANH.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

ANH had an in-built reset button, in that it showed Vader escaping at the end, and left an implied Imperial army and navy out there, as well as the off-screen Emperor.

In ROTJ, every major villain in the OT is dead, as well as wrapping up all unresolved story thread from all 6 movies.

 

No it had openings for more story.
You could have a sequel where the empire has fallen, the emperor is gone and Vader leads a hard-core group of imperial loyalists that launch terror attacks against the reformed Republic.

Or you have the empire and the rebels as more equals, the rebellion now control say 1/3 of the galaxy and the empire the rest. So now it is a big war, with two sides more equal.

That a sequel would have Vader in some way was very expected but that it re-used the exact setting from ANH, with weak rebels and strong empire, that was not a given.

RotJ also left an implied imperial navy and army. Unless one assumes that every single imperial ship and soldier was present on Endor.
So that some imperial ships and soldiers was alive after RotJ is logical. And it is no stretch to think that some of them fled the fall of the empire and hid in the outer regions of the galaxy.
Either hiding from judgement or planing some revenge or counter attack.

The EU has numbers of 25 000 ISD. So the number on Endor was a tiny fraction of that.

Which is why a lot of the EU that came out in the early 90's had exactly that. An Imperial remnant.

TFA certainly did not have to use this, it could have used an invasion from outside the galaxy.
I think some EU did this, the Yuzaan Vong or something? I don't read SW books.

Or a cold war between the new republic and the imperial remnant and some third party trying to make trouble.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

What darkspine10 is saying is that ROTJ left no loose ends for them to tie up like the previous films did.

ANH - Vader escapes
ESB - Han is captured

Both of those things dictated how the next movie would start off. ESB starts with Vader back on the warpath and ROTJ starts with the gang trying to rescue Han. If Lucas hadn't gotten tired of making these movies back in the 80's I'm sure ROTJ would have done something similar so that it could set up the next movie.

Remember Lucas was inspired by the old serials where every episode ended on some sort of cliffhanger. You always had to tune in to the next episode to get resolution.

 

It's been the butt of jokes for years. DSII is destroyed, Vader and the Emperor dead, but a fleet that was still capable of keeping the galaxy in line, as was proven by the premise of ESB, was still viable. So why is the end of ROTJ not treated like it's just the prelude for more dark times like it was immediately after the previous "ultimate power in the universe" was blown up?

It didn't matter because there had been a profound emotional climax and closure that the audience accepted alongside the plot resolution.

 

Are they basic or just familiar in appearance? If we look at this in-universe these complaints come across as ignorance. Layman criticism from people who only look at superficial visual aesthetic. If you look at these fighters, not just via the technical info from external material but also from within the movie, you'll notice that they've been significantly upgraded. What's more important, engineering & performance or "looking cool & original"?

A silly argument. The PT was set during the time of the Old Republic. The transition from that into the Empire was a massive event which ushered in enormous change. The ST is set in a post-Imperial period. The galaxy is still recovering from those dark times, with a cold war period preceding the events of TFA. Different periods of history contain different rates of technological change for different reasons. Changing ships just for the sake of change or to sell new cool looking toys would've been a poor choice IMO.

Doesn't mean they don't exist. As another example, it's now canon that all kinds of TIE variants were around during the time of Rebels & R1. Yet they're nowhere to be seen in ANH. That's not a plothole, ie it doesn't mean they stopped existing just a short time after Rebels/R1. Just that they didn't appear in ANH.

You guys get too hung up on this stuff. I may disagree with Lucas on many things, but one point he was right about is that SW isn't about "spaceships". It's about people, family, & friendships, & that's what TFA is primarily about.

That's why he created an ending that could do either, depending on what he chose to do in the future. He left his options open. So it could stand as a final happily ever after conclusion. On the other hand we see minimal losses in the Imperial Fleet. We see Yoda telling Luke to pass on what he's learned. We see Leia beginning to tap into her Force powers. Lucas said in an interview in May '83 that he's open to making sequels one day, after he makes 3 prequel episodes. So clearly he did not necessarily consider RotJ the final ending.

 

To an extend I can sympathise with some of the complaints. To many Lucas is a bonavide genius, and not just for the OT, but also for the PT. So, we have three things coming together the frustration with PT bashing, the returning to old school Star Wars idea used in the marketing (which can be interpreted as a slight to Lucas and the PT), and the deliberate adherance to the OT aesthetic, while soft rebooting the franchise. So, yeah I can see why someone would be critical of these aspects. At the same time many of us like old school Star Wars, and after over a decade of new school Star Wars, what's so bad about returning to the franchise's roots?

I like TFA mostly for two things 1) the characters and their interactions 2) the fact that it felt the Star Wars I watched as a kid. Now, do I feel it veers to close to ANH? Yes, although I think the only real issue here for me is Star Killer Base, and how it was used. I think it would have worked much better if they had gone for the rumored idea of both the NR, and the FO having a super weapon. This way then we would really get the cold war vibe, and we could actually get some interesting dynamic within the ranks of the good guys. I mean should the good guys deploy, or even have a super weapon? Another change I would have made, is a short conference room scene, where diplomats of the NR and FO meet to discuss the political situation, reminiscent of the Death Star conference room scene, or the RO alliance assembly. The FO could then accuse the NR of sponsering the Resistance, while the NR could be seen to be indecisive, with a frustrated general Leia trying to convince the NR to mobilize their forces. This would have better set up the destruction of Hosnian Prime. I think altering these two aspects (and perhaps adding a one or two new fighter designs ) probably would have significantly enhanced TFA in the eyes of many of the more critical viewers.

 

What exactly has been upgraded between the 2 eras though in either TIES, X-wings or Star Destroyers though (the 3 designs that hue closest to their originals)?

The X-wing's engines have slightly changed, which is barely noticeable in long shots. TIES are a different colour. And Star Destroyers have been flattened.

I'm really not seeing any change in the technology applied by any of them.[/quote][/quote]

 

Samuel Vimes wrote

As long as the senate was around and had some influence, a lot of systems were kept in check.
They did not openly rebel as they thought that they still had a say.
But once the senate is dissolved, now they know exactly what the emperor is after.
But as long as the DS was there, they would not dare to defy him.
So with NO DS and with NO senate, the empire would likely face massive uprisings.

So in ESB, the empire should have been much weaker and the rebellion should have been much stronger. But it is almost the reverse, the empire is as strong if not stronger and the rebels are weaker.

I don't want to reheat an old argument and rather link to the discussion already conducted, but that's not as clear as you try to portray it.

The Alliance was set up as a proxy so that rebellious systems (supporters) wouldn't be directly involved to avoid retaliation by the Empire.
According to the original ANH prologue another victorious battle (which the Battle of Yavin was) would ensure additional support of 1,000 systems, and according to the first ESB draft 1,026 systems had joined the Alliance after ANH (so George Lucas' prediction turned out to be rather accurate...).

The decisive question which ANH hinted, was whether the Alliance could keep its base hidden or not. Had Vader (without radio according to the first ESB draft) perished in the icy cold of space (if a molten pit of lava wasn't his undoing the cold of space might) the Alliance would have kept its base and would have put an end to the Galactic Empire rather soon.

But since Vader survived and had learned about the Alliance's hidden base, he returned with a vengeance and drove the Alliance from Yavin IV with the help of the Imperial Starfleet, undoubtedly resulting in heavy Alliance losses.

And realistically speaking there would not have been massive uprisings. The first system to openly rebel would have been visited by the Imperial Starfleet instantly. The civil war effort remained the task of the proxy, the Alliance, that had to cope with the ramifications of Vader having survived the Battle of Yavin.

 

The FO don't seek credible evidence or a cast-iron excuse for firing on the NR. The resistance is just the excuse that they are telling themselves. The real motivation for using the new weapon is, as Hux said, because it is complete. It is a strategic offensive weapon. They only reasons for firing it would be a retaliate to a similar attack (in which case it should be made known, to deter such an attack enemies) or to strike first in order to annihilate and conquer.

I would have preferred to have seen the relationship between Leia and the NR shown in more detail. But the circumstances in the film speak for themselves somewhat, and the end result would have been the same.

As for more conspicuous ship redesigns. Wouldn't have hurt unless story time is wasted shoving them in our faces. I don't take my cue for how invested I should be in a story from the variance in the architecture and the vehicles. It supports these story being told. It doesn't drive it. They are special effects, after all. The setting and the effects used to produce it are not the story.

 

The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.

---

(Incredulous)..That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control....?


It seems very clear to both Leia and General Tagge (far and away the most realistic and in touch Imperial officer at that table)

 

It's not so much about the FO's reasons for attacking, but about creating a dynamic between the NR/Restance vs FO that is different and perhaps a bit more ambiguous than reusing the Empire vs rebels dynamic of the OT. While the backstory and the parties involved are different, as presented in TFA, I wouldn't blame anyone for claiming it's an Empire vs rebels reprise.

 

Complaints of that nature were made regarding the fact that the two Jedi are marginalized and hounded despite they fact that they are the de facto law enforcers at height of the old republic, our heroes are immediately out on a limb just like Leia, Luke and Ben were from the Empire in ANH (on Tatooine, no less). That situation has been justified for years because it's NOT the Empire, it's a different species with differently shaped and coloured spaceships. Besides there's the whole introduction of new characters, which is the real story. In the interests of starting the saga off as if we're in the middle of a story (which is weird since it's Episode I) it's contrived that the Trade Federation are able to operate as if it was the Empire.

 

Martoto77 wrote

The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.

(Incredulous)..That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control....?

It seems very clear to both Leia and General Tagge (far and away the most realistic and in touch Imperial officer at that table)

Yes, but that wasn't at all what my reply to Sam Vimes was about.

It's obvious that both Leia and Taggi believed that the Death Star would rather encourage systems to join the Alliance's cause while Tarkin believed that the fear of the Death Star would keep these in line.

But because the Tarkin Doctrine could never be put to the test because the Death Star blew up at the Battle of Yavin, the Death Star's effect on the Imperial systems in the aftermath of the destruction of Alderaan remains conjectural and a subject of speculation.

 

But their beliefs are not just casually invoked for the audience to use their faculties to endorse or otherwise. They are to make it clear to the audience what the circumstances are and exactly what the stakes involved are. There is no ambiguity about why the Death Star is so important.

ANH is consistent and clear about what the DS is designed for, its intent and the expectations of it. They are seen and said to be putting all their eggs in one basket. The dissolution of the Senate made the Death Star a necessity.

Invulnerable - No need for the Senate - Nip the rebellion in the bud - the ability to smite anyone that even contemplates dissent.

ESB makes the first DS project and its destruction an inconsequential and superfluous exercise. It would have been nice to have some acknowledgment of the status quo and the reasons for. But, as always, the real story is the character story. And ESB gave us plenty of character nuance and depth. Probably because of, rather than in spite of the premise chosen for it.

 

The Special Forces TIE (like the one Finn & Poe escaped in) looks virtually the same from the outside. Yet as you saw in the movie it's a two-man fighter. It has a gunnery position, instantly making it more formidable. It also has a hyperdrive, another huge upgrade. Added to that, a lot more weaponry including warhead launchers. All of which is far more important than giving the ships a different appearance just to comfort Prequel fans over the "OT nostalgia" that makes them so upset.

 

First Order also appear to have no problems deploying Ties in freezing climates. Even once the shield was down, the Empire provide zero air support to the ground troops or any tactical aerial bombardment on Hoth.

Is that not an evolution? Or does it violate lore by ignoring what ESB told us?

It's funny how a movie that's so preoccupied with nostalgia for the OT doesn't feature a prolonged space battle or pursuit. There's a brief escape from a Star Destroyer. But that's it. All the other skirmishes are on or just above the surface of a planet. Quite a new thing for Star Wars.

 

Look, first off, the hyperdrive thing is never seen on mentioned in the movie, making it irrelevant. Additionally, the TIE being two man also doesn't make a slight difference to the film. We don't see TIEs firing backwards to save themselves against the Rebels. Do we even see warhead launchers? And what's to say there weren't TIEs with those capabilities in the OT? We wouldn't have known any different going by TFA.

They're functionally identical, as well as visually identical.

As for space battles, there is the TIE escape scene, which about the same length as AOTC's Jango battle. AOTC and ROTS had plenty of 'sky' battles as well. So TFA is nothing new there.

 

I thought Finn & Poe escaped bcs they could both fit in the TIE. What would they have done in one of those old-school OT fighters? One would sit on the other's lap?

George told you that SW isn't about spaceships! Why not listen to him?