Saga Did TFA make the OT pointless?

Only if you believe it was the only possible future after ROTJ and therefore the only point you can or should take from it, But that's not the case.

The point of ROTJ was to conclude a trilogy.

Since the previous Death Star blew up and the rebels were in an even worse position immediately afterwards, and if total and utter enduring peace, security, happiness, lollipops and rainbows hereafter was supposed to be the point of ROTJ, then choosing to blow up a death star was not really the best way to put that point across. Blowing up the previous Death Star did not deliver that outcome Why should blowing up a second one guarantee it the second time?

ANH heavily suggested (stated, you could argue) in the crawl, that the outcome of the story in the movie they were about to watch would be the restoration of peace and freedom, should it prove to be a victorious one for the rebels. But instead, their emphatic and total victory over a completed and fully tested battle station turned out only to be a prelude to a dark time for the rebellion.

 

If this trilogy turns out to just be an extension of ROTJ, then it will ultimately be a pointless trilogy. The preceding trilogy won't ever be pointless, because it is the preceding trilogy. A continuation that doesn't bring anything new into the mix on a fundamental level would be better off scrapped.
I suspect that Rian Johnson understands this and has put a radically different spin on things (The title "The Last Jedi" alone suggests as much). I don't want to get into a lot of speculations this close to the premiere, spoiler free as I am, but if my suspicions are right, TLJ will show us why things have gone wrong again, putting TFA in a different light and allowing us to understand it in an entirely new way.
As it is, TFA is certainly a movie that makes one go "What the heck?" - but I believe it was partly designed to do just that. Obviously, everyone doesn't appreciate that, but hopefully, TLJ and EpIX can alter everyone's view for the better.

 

I am sure that Rian Johnson, as a writer and director, and more importantly as a grown up, does not feel that he needs to put a different spin on things. I am also pretty confident that he doesn't see the state of affairs in TFA ( 30 years after the treaty that ended the civil war which lead to a new republic consisting of the majority of systems of the former Republic/Empire, while the Imperial loyalists were marginalised) means that ROTJ, which repeated the victory of ANH only with the addition that the Imperials lost their supreme leader, is pointless.

If Rian Johnson had any integrity, and he had any confusion about what is going on in TFA and why, then instead of going "what the heck?" and changing everything, I am sure he would have said, no thanks. And I am sure that if he said "what the heck?" and not understood how or why after 30 years of relative peace, the appeased Imperialist/loyalist remnants could be resurgent, or could even want to be resurgent and impose Imperial tyranny on the entire galaxy, not just the corner they were left with after the peace treaty, then KK and Lucasfilm would probably have fired him on the spot.

Why would anyone assume that Rian Johnson would be as confused and malcontent (on the basis of spurious preconceived notions like - new trilogy= different spaceships) as a few people are on these forums?

It also hasn't been established that the intent of TFA was to set up a trilogy that brought nothing new to the table. Common sense would suggest not.

Unless you believe that JJ coming back for IX is so that he can spin everything that Rian does back i order to have a conclusion where the trilogy removes anything that might have been considered new from the table after RJ splits.

 

Don't look now, but TFA is a movie, which is a dramatic medium. So when discussing the "point" of a movie, you may want to consider what is significant dramatically, instead of superficially.

You're confusing strength with intelligence. Obviously, Serkis just revealed the FO has unlimited resources, but going by the events of TFA alone, no, they do not imply unlimited resources, but extremely advanced intelligence, assuming the kind of power that can destroy a solar system hasn't been publicly known for some years, which may also have been the case. But Snoke is enough of a mysterious figure to render that question irrelevant, since we don't how long he's been secretly planning this coup. And the fact that it's a coup at all is enough to significantly distinguish it from the Empire.

 

Martoto77: Say what? When did I say anything about RJ being confused? When did I say anything at all about RJ agreeing with those who are disappointed with TFA? When did I say that the trilogy wasn’t intended to bring something new to the table?

I’m optimistic about the new trilogy! I really thought you knew that.

The “What the heck?” effect, BTW, is to me one of TFA’s greatest assets. I didn’t mean it as “What the heck is this crap?”, I meant it as “What the heck has happened? And why? I wanna know more!”.

 

I know you have stated your optimism. If you are optimistic though, it's a bit strange to be entertaining the idea that TFA has set the trilogy up to "just be an extension of ROTJ." whatever that means. And that Rian has a job to do to something radically different than what JJ had set the trilogy up for.

The idea that Rian Johnson would be hired and kept on after looking at TFA and going "What the heck?" and implying that he has to fix the remainder of the trilogy, is weird too.

There is no what the heck happened, except in terms of the finer details of the in between story (the imminent revelation of which has been promoted in just about every TLJ trailer). It's not like the cast of the OT walked through a door to assured happiness and success for the rest of their lives and came out the other side in an arbitrary perversion of that promised future.

It's more opt to as "what didn't happen?" The alliance didn't prosecute the war until a total victory and the annihilation of or unconditional surrender by all Imperial personal. That was never their stated aim. That kind if settlement is, unfortunately, the right conditions for a resumption of hostilities sometime later down the line, if not handled right. (e.g. the Nazis prospered on the pretext that Germany had been cheated and robbed during and since the previous war where they capitulated)

It's only a few people that have chosen to look at the x-wing and the tie fighter in TFA and conclude that this must be all the film-makers know how to do or can conceive that the fans will understand or accept. And they appear to be the same people that think that the point of making a new trilogy is to provide new spaceships, and will ignore every aspect of historical/political continuity that TFA is consistent with in order to maintain that wholly specious and arbitrary position.

Pandering is a word that gets bandied about around here. (It is a way people have of labeling anything that wasn't obviously conceived in line with their preconceived notions being designed to align with other, less worthy fans, and therefore of no worth itself). But designing a movie purely as a response to what a few people might try to claim about the "point" of ROTJ following TFA, would be blatant pandering.

 

Who the heck WANTS tyranny beyond the actual tyrant?

Lulu Mars
You messed up and even put out the slightest of possibilities that the ST can't be judged great and perfect before 8 and 9 are release.

Kind of odd Martoto77 's feathers are so easily ruffled on anything concerning the ST considering they spend all their time on the PT forums finding absolutely nothing redeeming.

BTW, PT Empire formation was 10 on the creative scale of a tyrant seizing power. A First Order just blowing stuff up until there is nothing left so they can rule the ashes (taking power through grunt work) is pretty close to a 1 on the creative scale.

 

The a-holes that like to be an instrument of tyranny as well as subject to it. You often find that some citizens of tyrannical regimes are complicit in spreading that tyranny and get some enjoyment out of it, or at least out of being on the right side of it. Sometimes they even vote the tyrant in with full knowledge of the tyranny that they promise. And sometimes they vote for any possible platform for dissent and opposition to be outlawed.

In fact, every society of that nature has had enthusiastic participants who do not stop enthusing about it after the architect or leader of that regime has gone. You may have noticed that Adolf Hitler remains popular with people who would reinstall that type if ideology if they had the opportunity.

Please don't ask me "Why male models again."

 

No, TFA did not make the OT pointless. The other side of the debaters are correct. TFA doesn't really attempt to be a continuation of ROTJ, rather a "pointless" soft reboot(for no reason at all). It is meant to be an outlier, detached from the main body of Lucas's entirety of the Original Saga. The ST has removed itself, therefore becoming its own "canon" of sorts. Isolated.

I'm a firm believer that the Saga is complete with 1-6. Even if Lucas was involved and despite myself wanting to observe and experience his story ideas! There wasn't, nor isn't anything the ST could have ever given me more of, no matter who made it. Although this has yet to mean the ST had be be designed this way. It could have been connected properly while providing its own identity. A detached trilogy was quite honestly going to be the case but it didn't have to be in such way that is a "reboot".

 

You're right! Shame on me

Not to someone with an open mind - and certainly not with a movie as open-ended and devoid of explanations as TFA.

It means a continuation that reaches the same conclusion that ROTJ reached.

That's not what I said. At all.

Again, the "What the heck?" effect that I talked about is an asset of TFA. It's a good "What the heck?". It's a huge turning point that makes us wonder what the heck's happened and want to know more about it.

Yes, there is. There's no need to be defensive about it, because there's nothing negative about it. At least not in my book.

And for the last time, that's not what I'm talking about.

 

I'm not being defensive Lulu. I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.

What exactly do you mean by the ST coming the same conclusion as ROTJ? By having a space station blow up at the end of a battle?

And what did you mean by RJ choosing to put a radically different spin on things because he might understand that

Nobody has stated that episode IX will be the last episode in the last trilogy of the saga. But it is extremely likely that it will be, after it was anounced that RJ would be beginning a new trilogy that is not directly connected.

Considering they have used the fact that all ROTJ did was conclude one particular emotional journey (of Luke going from farmboy to Jedi knight who redeems his father), the it would be extremely unlikely if the conclusion to the ST is simply a retread of the inconclusive climax to ROTJ.

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If folk want to go down the "you're only arguing because you assume they can do no wrong" or "it was never going to be canon anyway" routes, know yourselves out.

 

Adolf Hitler v2.0 has not happened and probably will not happen for quite some time to come (if it ever does again). But even Adolf Hitler was closer to Palpatine than Snoke. The constant neo-Nazi and Hitler re-visited talk is a dead end. Tyrants don't announce they are a Tyrant and ask people to join their tyranny. So we definitely would not have people looking to re-install the tyranny unless they are part of the inner inner inner circle.

I never asked "Why male models?" You did. We found a lower level of Zoolander. Senile Zoolander.

Exactly what a defensive person would say

 

Alright, then! When I say conclusion, I'm referring to the personal/spiritual/mythical core of the story - and especially the spiritual/mythical aspect of it. In a hypothetical scenario where EpIX ends with the Force being balanced, again, in virtually the same way (lightsiders take out the darksiders and live to pass on what they have learned), we'd be looking at a pointless extension/repetition of the Chosen One's journey (the now established core of the myth) as we know it.
I believe that EpIX will end with the Force being balanced again, but what I'm hoping for is that this trilogy will reveal things about the balance and the prophecy that were not evident before; things that will alter our view of the myth. Maybe things weren't really supposed to happen the way they did? Maybe true balance actually requires the end of the Jedi and maybe that knowledge was lost thousands of years ago? Or maybe Snoke has some unexpected relation to it (I've only seen the teaser trailer, so please don't spoil me on any other trailers )?
Again, I do suspect that this trilogy will alter our view of these things, so I'm not really worried. I'm just thinking out loud, mainly for the benefit of those who are worried/skeptical.

And about RJ understanding these things: As I've come to understand it, he was given a LOT of freedom with the story. He may have been exaggerating a bit, but he did say that he was given no story at all. Either way, though, it seems like the nature of the trilogy as a whole depends a great deal on what he has brought to the table, as TLJ is likely to introduce the main problem (since it's the middle act), which EpIX will then solve.

Did that make it any clearer?

 

You weren't asking if we had Hitler v2.0. You were asking , who would want tyranny after the tyrant is gone.

Effectively, you are. That's why I "quoted" it. Thanks for explaining my reference to me.


Ok Lulu. That explanation of what reaching the same conclusion as ROTJ, seems a lot to have discerned as a present danger just from TFA. It is also reliant on imposing what the PT tried to make out the OT was all about but was never designed for. In that sense, if the ST can actually engage with the prophecy and balance in definitive manner, rather than just being pegged onto it like they were in the OT post PT, then that would be a good thing. Because ROTJ was categorically NEVER conceived or designed as the fulfillment of a prophesy. The PT only tried to convince us it was. It succeeds with some fans, but not with others.

Some people believe the force was balanced the moment Sidious and Vader were dead. But it was never professed that the balance would return instantly. Kylo's promise to finish what his grandfather started can have two meanings. The obvious one is to wipe out all remaining Jedi (namely Luke) but also to be around when the force does inevitably become balanced due to the Sith's destruction by Anakin in the previous trilogy.

 

I like that last idea. What if Kylo believes he is to fulfill the destiny of the Chosen One?

 

It may well turn out that way. One way or another. Whether Kylo believes it or not. His promise to finish his grandfather's work may be intended to refer to the destruction of the Jedi. But it could also carry meaning that Ren doesn't yet understand.

Since Anakin is now a force ghost, and ghosts have been shown to actively influence events and the living after they have merged with the force, then it stands to reason that the prophesied balance to the force can be a work in progress for Anakin, his children and his grandchildren. Or whomever he appears to.

 

Quite recently there was a neo-nazi march in Poland and there were several thousand people in that march and they yelled stuff like "Open Auschwitz again" and equally horrible things.
And the government of Poland did nothing.

So the country where a lot of the Holocaust happened, now has people screaming about starting it back up again.

In my country, Sweden, the third biggest party is one that has it's roots in neo-nazi and extreme right wing parties.
And you have spokesmen for that party saying things like "Muslims are not human."

In a number of countries we now have "strong" elected leaders that have been elected despite them trampling on things like rights, laws etc.
So a fair few people want "strong"leaders as opposed to democratic ones.
Because in quite a number of countries "democracy" is seen as "weak".

So sad to say, Hitler 2.0 is not as far away as we might have hoped.

And I again point to the opening crawl of ANH;

And guess what, ESB totally ignored that point.
So I guess that means ESB made ANH pointless?

But isn't this an example of a DIFFERENCE?
The empire took power through subversion and insidious means.
The FO takes the brute force approach, massive destruction to make everyone submit.
So you yourself admit to a pretty big difference here.

How can you judge THREE films after just seeing ONE film?
Isn't that like watching the first third of ANH and then deciding it is bad?
Or reading the first third of a book?

And it is interesting, back in the day, a number of people were not fond of TPM and they got called "Bashers".
And people told those "Bashers", "don't judge the whole PT on just one film, there are two more coming. "
And quite a number of those people use RotS to argue that it made the other two PT films better.
And now we have people dismissing the whole ST based on just one film.

@Talos of Atmora

What is the similarity in fighting styles?
That the FO has soldiers, fighters and big war ships?
Hardly unique when it comes to military forces in SF settings.

That they have big planet killing weapons?
Again not unique.
In Star Trek TOS, you had the Doomsday Device.
In Voy you had Species 8472 that could destroy planets.
In Bablylon 5, both the Vorlons and the Shadows had planet killers.

And I can give you a direct example of a difference in fighting style between the FO and the Empire.
At NO point in the whole OT does the Empire use TIE's to attack targets on the ground.
But the FO does.
There, difference.

And for your other point about limitless resources.
Several things wrong,
1) This thread is about whether TFA made the OT pointless.
So taking stuff from the next film falls outside the subject.

2) We haven't seen TLJ so trying to use stuff from that film before anyone here has seen it is very flawed.
Say that TLJ establishes that Snoke is from another galaxy and the FO is supported by invaders from that other galaxy. That would make them very different from the Empire.
But we don't know yet so any speculation is pointless.

3) Even if we use TLJ and it changes the what was established in TFA, again I point to ANH.
That film very much implied or even outright stated that the destruction of the DS would mean the fall of the empire and restore freedom to the galaxy.
Then ESB totally ignored that and changed things from what looked like a happy ending.

That is the interesting double standard that I see from several people here.
ESB made the victory in ANH pointless and more or less ignored what that film set up and what the ending there implied.
Some are fine with that but take TFA to task for doing the same or even less the same what ESB did.
That is a double standard.

If people don't like TFA or feel that the FO is too similar to the empire.
Fine.
But saying that there is NO difference between the FO and the empire even after several examples of such differences being given. That is something else.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

So far I've not seen the thing why this trilogy exists. The PT is still being criticized for it's narrative connections to the OT. The tragedy of Darth Vader is apparently not working because the OT is a story about Luke and the prophecy thing, although it works great and is fulfilled, is a nonsense. To some. There's no need for that thing to continue; ROTS clearly said that the Chosen one is to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force, which Lucas said himself in ROTS DVD featurette, and at the very beginning of TFA the character that Kylo kills says that there can be no balance without the Jedi. What more is there to tell? That the balance is not restored the moment Anakin joins the Force? No.

Few years ago there were some rumors about Lucas' ideas for the ST, that he'd go back, not to ANH, but to the very beginnings of the Jedi, the Sith and the Force, and there were some hints that TLJ will show us that. Too bad they decided to develop some new stories in the second movie.

That could work. The PT's Chosen One was stupid young antichrist and Lucas' attempt to present his redemption as a fulfilment of the prophecy failed because ROTJ was never about that. TFA, on the other hand, has an all powerful young prodigy who crushes her opponents, Jedi master in search of the first Jedi temple and a young man in his quest to gain more dark side powers to finish what his grandfather started, which is the prophecy. And the dark side is a way to do it.

 

This thread seems pointless to me. I think the only people who've argued that the OT was rendered pointless are people that simply loathe TFA. Despite all the counterpoints provided over 27 pages, there doesn't seem to be anyone that has walked back from their initial point of view, so it's really just a thinly disguised place to talk about how 'awful' TFA was.

 

Well, if the point was a suggestion of the future and the future ends up being something completely contradictory to that suggestion, then the point has been dismantled: rendered pointless if you will.

 

Within the narrative of the entire saga, TFA is but the beginning of the third act. Keeping that in mind, I see no problems it presents within that place, since most of the context for what happened between VI and VII is mysterious. The primary bit of missing information making all the difference is who Snoke is and how he fits into the Saga. There are two more parts of the third act to answer that.

 

I know it’s only the beginning. I acknowledged that the following 2 films in the sequel trilogy could repair the symmetry of the Saga. Heck, I have faith that they will. And I agree with you that Snoke’s background is important, and I would also include Rey’s lineage as equally important.

 

You can't dismantle a suggestion of a possible future. Nor is the movie that suggests it dismantled because everything doesn't turn out hunky dory. The only reason that suggestion exists is because the saga wasn't intended to continue beyond ROTJ.

 

That remains to be seen... if TLJ develops the idea further, that is.
We'll know before the end of the week!