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Saga Did TFA make the OT pointless?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Weavile, Oct 22, 2017.

  1. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    It is only in your opinion that there are"lackluster elements".
    Other people disagree.

    So what you mean is "Had they done the films the way I wanted, then I would have liked them better."
    Intelligence has nothing to do with it, it is just people's personal preferences.

    As for "There was no need to make the ST this way.
    Except that the people who were making the films wanted to do them this way.

    I remember well when similar things were said about the PT and people defended Lucas by saying "Lucas is not obligated to make the films any other way than how he wants to make them."

    If people like what Lucas did or if people like what JJ and Rian did, that is up to each person to decide.
    But if one had creative freedom to do whatever he wants, then the same should apply to the others.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  2. LordDallos

    LordDallos Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2016

    You keep trying to make this about spaceships and I’ve made it very clear that is not what is holding the ST back. Not even worth explaining my points again. It’s like having a discussion with a broken record.

    Happy TLJ day!!!
     
  3. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Gee, I wouldn't have known if you hadn't told me. :rolleyes:

    In every argument encompassing anything like literature, film, etc., this encompasses everyone who takes a stance on it. So, yes.

    It's a really stupid way of doing them then. If they were so invested in how this trilogy, they wouldn't do things like wasting characters that have potential, elevating characters that are totally boring and end up remaining dull even into the sequels, having plot threads that go absolutely nowhere, dropping plot threads outright and then expecting your audience to read about them in a book (something that Lucasfilm said they wanted to avoid when they no longer considered the expanded universe canon in any sense), etc. Unlike the trilogy they so gladly emulate, they actually had an opportunity to make something that was consistently excellent but so far, the films have been mediocre at best.

    Just like how an individual can look at what they did using that creative freedom and decide whether or not it was an absolutely godawful idea.
     
  4. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Happy to oblige.


    [/QUOTE]

    So exactly like the PT then?
    The PT wasted potentially interesting characters like Dooku by introducing more than half way through the second film and then killing him off quickly.
    Obi-Wan, who is an important character, had very little to do in TPM and had very little character growth.
    Qui-Gon, the central character in TPM is killed off and then just gets a few mentions in the other films.

    Plot important characters pop up out of nowhere, like Griev, with no build up.
    Jar Jar had a big role that got scaled down considerably.

    And I have lost count on the number of times when I asked a question about the PT and was told;
    "You need to read these books, you need to watch the clone wars series. "This is explained in this deleted scene or Lucas explains this in the commentary."

    I have not yet seen TLJ yet so I am only talking about TFA thus far.

    And while it has plenty of issues, Phasma was a waste, SKB too rushed, the strength to me, was that I cared and liked the characters and was interested in following them. They engaged me.
    That is what the PT didn't exactly pull off and as a result, I was mostly passively watching those films.

    R1 had less interesting characters, I did not much care for Jyn. But it made up for it by having a really good third act.
    So TFA, strong first half, less good second half. R1, pretty much the opposite.
    Neither are as good as ANH or ESB but I enjoyed them more than TPM or AotC.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  5. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    In a lot of ways, yes.

    Absolutely, especially in the case of Dooku who could have been introduced in The Phantom Menace to focus on its political and thriller aspects. I'm thankful that the EU capitalized on his presence in the Clone Wars when they did since I find him to be an excellent character.

    Understandable.

    While I think his death was necessary for the kind of story that was being told, he still should have been made more relevant so I agree with you there.

    Yep.

    I'd probably consider this to be more of a problem if he wasn't so grating. I get your point though.

    Well, you clearly understand the point I was making with the ST, then. The reason I'm less critical of the PT's application of this now is because it already happened. No one can change it. However, the problem was that Lucasfilm, under new leadership, said that they were going to strive for this to not be the case. They failed at this rather spectacularly by having a ton of exposition practically cut out of the film for no reason at all and then expect you to read other material in order to get that information.

    This total thoughtlessness in regards to this issue is the most insulting aspect of how the new films have gone so far.

    I really wasn't engaged by any the new characters and I'm still not, unfortunately. Honestly, I think the principal writers of The Force Awakens had no idea where to take Rey's character which resulted in her just being totally unmemorable. Somehow, they managed to make me entirely uninterested with her in the events following her excellent introduction and it never got better. Finn's basically given one of the most interesting character concepts in the entirety of the films thus far and then reduced to a comic relief by having a personality he really shouldn't have. If you actually take into account his backstory (a lot of it being in the novels because of course it is), we should be seeing a far colder, serious and distraught character than what we're seeing but in the end both Finn and John Boyega's talents are wasted in virtually every capacity. Same goes for Oscar Isaac because Poe is just boring and generally sucks. The only new character with any meat on the bones of his characterization (if that makes sense) is Kylo Ren which shouldn't make it surprising that Episode VIII is practically his movie. Rian was probably looking for the most interesting character to gravitate towards and Kylo just ended up being it. Kind of says a lot. Your points are applicable as well. Phasma was a non-starter and SKB just brought the plot and the story to a screeching halt for no reason other than empty callbacks and destroying one of the most interesting aspects of the film.

    Fair enough.
     
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  6. LordDallos

    LordDallos Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2016
    Well if TFA didn't do it, TLJ definitely did.
     
  7. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    TLJ made TFA pointless:D
     
  8. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    The ST has made the complete OT and PT null and void. I know how Padme feels now, with the franchise going down a path I can't follow.
     
  9. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    This will be a fun thread to reread now that Ep8 is out.

    You nailed it.

    [face_praying]

    Sloppy. Did TLJ make TFA pointless?
     
  10. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
  11. LordDallos

    LordDallos Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 2, 2016
    Come on. That’s all you got?
     
  12. LordDallos

    LordDallos Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2016

    Come on. That’s all you got?
     
  13. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Part of the problem is how the writers seem to want to have their cake and eat it too regarding the FO. So the FO are supposed to be insurgents of a rump state, yet they somehow have bigger and more powerful ships, superweapons, walkers, etc than their parent state (Empire) ever had. Then you have them fighting other insurgents working in proxy for the NR. Basically and rather cheap way to bring the GFFA back to a cheaper and even more one sided version of the civil war between the Empire and Rebels, only smaller scale and scope for cost cutting.
     
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  14. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    The nature of the new trilogy makes it virtually impossible for me to see a trilogy of trilogies. It’s just too un-Lucas for that.
    What I do see is a story arc that spans over two trilogies and then a third trilogy that kicks off an entirely new phase - which is perfectly fine.
    I just hope they’ll keep the Saga going past EpIX instead of acting as though that episode is the true end of GL’s story. His part of the series ends in ROTJ and will always stand as a self-contained entity; the grand opening phase of the Skywalker Saga that sets it up as a story of generations.
     
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  15. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 3, 2016
    That's due to Lucas managing to tie the themes of both his trilogies together rather effectively while the ST flounders for any identity of its own from either a worldbuilding or narrative perspective.
     
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  16. Jozgar

    Jozgar Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    That's a terribly unfair comparison to make. I don't think any of us can even say what the "identity" of any story is at the end of the second act.
     
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  17. Darth Bridge 167

    Darth Bridge 167 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2017
    I think the difference with the ST and OT/PT is Lucas was the sole decision maker for the overall arc of the films. Yes the director can put a different style or spin on the movies like Kershner and Marquand, but the big themes were still Lucas. I don't know why Disney just didn't have JJ or RJ write the whole trilogy, or atleast be on the same page for all 3 movies. Whether you love or hate TFA/TLJ, the movies just don't mesh and I suspect Episode 9 will have the same problems (Episode 9 will probably be closer to TFA in terms of themes). I think it's a real disservice to fans that Disney buys the best Franchise in the history of movies and they seem to be just winging it movie to movie.
     
  18. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    I'm pretty sure Kathleen Kennedy is a Lucas plant. Lucas hates Hollywood and Disney is sooooo Hollywood.

    Step 1 - Build one of the greatest movie franchises ever
    Step 2 - Sell for $4 billion
    Step 3 - Have plant Kennedy run Star Wars brand into the ground in record time
    Step 4 - Buy back franchise for $1 million
    Step 5 - Goto Step 1
     
  19. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    A reboot? Wouldn't that make the OT pointless?

    Because they have all the archives and notes regarding themes surrounding the force and the Jedi which are a reflection of George Lucas's views on organised religions and such. Plus the politics of the society shown in Star Wars, such as they are, have all been directly inspired and influenced by earth politics.

    LFL have gone on record as still being heavily reliant on these resources (naturally because that;s what Star Wars is) and there are people who have worked at LFL for nearly forty years, including Hamimill, who know that, story wise, George Lucas has been making much of it up as he went along anyway. One of the reasons that Lucas was encouraged to sell up and cede control is that these resources are transferrable. The only thing that hasn't carried over is that George Lucas no longer micro manages the development of these films. A situation he volunteered himself for.

    Maybe time to get back on topic.

    Emperor still dead at beginning of TFA. Darth Vader stll dead, presumably merged with the force.

    If you believe that the point was that there should be no more story (no more adversity to overcome) beyond that then the OT has lost that point, if you watch the sequel trilogy, that is. But if you were convinced that there should be no story beyond ROTJ (i.e. whatever achievements secured by the heroes in ROTJ should be lasting forever) then why would you even pay any attention to TFA or beyond?
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
  20. Outsourced

    Outsourced Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    I really hope you're joking right now.
     
  21. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    " " " " " " "
     
  22. firesaber

    firesaber Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2006
    I would say no. To the various points of the First Order rising up after the empire there is just enough of the old EU there regarding the Imperial Remnant and the threats it posed to be interesting. Did WWII make WWI pointless? That is probably a more apt comparison. Germany defeated, world rejoices, peace and harmony. Meanwhile in the background years later Germany arms up despite treaty restrictions a dark new figure comes into power and it lashes out against its neighbors and wreaks death and destruction. The Nazi imagery in the TFA was not a rando thing.

    We've been told that these (now three) trilogies are the Skywalker saga-yet we spend a lot of time focusing on Rey, yet some sections of fandom seem to be missing the point that Ben/Kylo is the only Skywalker left standing at this point. I'm intrigued at that implication and very curious to see where this takes us.
     
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  23. Game3525

    Game3525 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2008
    They should have never let JJ and Kasdan write the story in the first place. IMO, they should have used George's treatments and have Kasdan write the screenplay and have JJ direct it.

    That was the formula for ESB, and that is considered by many to be the best film in the saga.
     
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  24. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Hand of the Mod Squad and Enforcer of the Realm star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    None of us have ever seen them. For all we know it could have been an origin story about Gungans and Ewoks.