Saga Did TFA make the OT pointless?

There are forces apart from the centralised New Republic military defending their worlds.

 

TLJ crawl:

"Only General Leia Organa’s band of RESISTANCE fighters stand against the rising tyranny."

There are no other forces.

 

Yet throughout the movie (and novelisation) they mention other forces that haven't been overrun. Perhaps those other forces were considering surrendering or suing for peace?

 

Or perhaps they didn't respond to Resistance calls, because they had all been beaten as the crawl clearly states, and the Resistance are hoping on reenforcements, that in reality no longer exist. When someone doesn't answer your calls, they might not want to, or they are no longer able. The crawl makes perfectly clear it's the latter.

 

Except we know that the First Order still has to take weeks to take over systems and we know from the novelization that many fleets still exist in the galaxy.

It's not just the Resistance.

 

So, the Republic is decimated in the movie, but not in the book. Apart from the fact, that I think a movie should not rely on a book to make sense, the term decimated used in the film is not really compatible with multiple fleets still being able to fight the FO. RJ could have stated the New Republic was struggling or some other term that indicates they are close to defeat, but not yet beaten, but he did not do that. He deliberately used the term decimated, which means completely crushed into non-existence. That and the fact that the crawl clearly states the Resistance is the only force left to resist the Republic doesn't make your case or TLJ very convincing.

 

The Republic being decimated is not mutual exclusive to the idea that remaining fleets and planetary defence forces exist. The Republic, for all intents and purposes, has been decimated - it's capital, central government and fleet are gone. What remains is effectively not the Republic, but it's remnants.

 

Actually, it means that a great number, or proportion, of it has been destroyed. It does not mean that it no longer exists.

 

Interestingly, the traditional meaning of decimation was the execution of 1 in 10 members of a unit. However, in the present day, people tend to use it for a much higher proportion, and not just for execution but for any catastrophe.

 

Interesting, but ultimately what matters most is RJ's interpretation while writing TLJ, and that interpretation has been made very clear by the fact, that he also writes in no uncertain terms, that the Resistance are the only ones standing against the FO. In other words all the other opposition have either been incapacitated, or now support the FO.

 

We know that not to be the case however. They may be waiting to surrender above their world but haven't done so yet. We know that it would take weeks for them to take the major systems.

 

Yes we do. What we know is that their military capabilities have been crushed, and they have surrendered (decimated + no one left standing but Resistance). The FO is now deploying troops to take control of the systems, which means setting up a provisional government, taking control of resources, restoring order, etc, etc. That's how it works in the aftermath of war. After the U.S. defeated Sadam Hussein's army, and they surrendered, it took time to take real control of the country. This does not imply the Iraqis were waiting to surrender, after which the U.S. instantly controlled the country. It certainly doesn't mean the Iraqis were still capable of resisting the U.S. with nothing more to improve their military situation than some newly acquired inspiration.

 

Again you're making assumptions about the wording of something which you think is definitive but isn't.

We know that from other canon meterial there are other forces that exist. That easily fits with the crawl if you'd accept that there are other ways to interpret it.

 

It's not an assumption:

"Only General Leia Organa’s band of RESISTANCE fighters stand against the rising tyranny..."

There is no other interpretation of the word "only". So, no other armies or fleets stand against the FO within movie canon. Any other forces have either surrendered, are neutral, and not part of the New Republic, or are fighting on the side of the FO.

I haven't read the book, or any other TLJ related material, since in my view a film should stand on it's own, and not require a book to understand what's happening, so I'll take your word, that the other material states other forces exist, but if they are against the FO, that simply means the other material is inconsistent with the film.

 

Because they are not said to be standing against anyone, that doesn't mean they don't exist. If they didn't exist then who is Leia and the Resistance calling to for help?

Only Great Britain stood against Nazi Germany at one point. That didn't mean the US military didn't or wouldn't exist.

ANH and ESB would have you believe that only a small band of humans stands against the Empire. ROTJ showed us that you shouldn't choose only to believe and to conceive what you've already seen on screen.

 

Two options:

1) The Resistance is not fully aware of the military situation, and hopes there are still forces in the New Republic able to stand against the FO. Their calls for help are not answered, because as we know from the crawl, they no longer exist.

2) Former allies outside of the New Republic exist, that at least before the FO's assault may have been sympathetic to the Resistance's cause. If these former allies exist, TLJ makes it clear they have abandoned the Resistance, either because they've already been overrun, don't want to get involved in the conflict, or because they've joined forces with the FO.

Either way, there are no longer forces within New Republic territory capable of resisting the FO. This means a rebellion within former Republican territory will have to be built from scratch, as it was in the era following Palpatine's rise to power.

They did, but for a while it wasn't clear whether the U.S. would join the struggle against Nazi Germany. It wasn't until Pearl Harbor that the U.S. really joined the fight. Even then it took years to organize the Allied forces, and to launch an attack. A two front war was eventually needed to bring Nazi Germany to its knees. So, for this analogy to work, the supposed military strength of the former Allies in the outer rim should at least approach the military strength of the FO to really have a fighting chance within the foreseeable future. There's no indication that any such other military force exist in the GFFA. If such a force does now suddenly get introduced in episode 9, it would support my initial criticism, that victory in the GFFA has been greatly devalued, because both sides can keep pulling hidden forces from behind the curtain to keep the fight going ad infinitum. So, either a full fledged rebellion has to grow from two men and a dog in the limited time between TLJ and episode 9, which seems wholly unrealistic in the context of the rest of the saga, or they have to introduce another deux ex machina, and pull another never before seen army out of the outer rim.

Actually, ESB shows the band of rebels from ANH has grown to a full fledged Rebel Alliance, as is evident from the sizable fleet seen at the end of the film. Either way the rebels in the OT were always established as a well organized threat to the Empire's power structure, whereas the rebels in TLJ are seen to all fit in a single spaceship by the end of the movie. There's really no comparison. They're a tiny group of people without a base, resources, personel, or equipment.

 

That would seem a weird use of a hyperbole. TLJ itself seems to suggest there isn't any opposition other than the Resistance. We don't see or hear from any other fighting force. In fact TLJ makes it very clear the Resistance have been abandoned by any allies they may have had. The few Resistance fighters left see themselves as the spark, that will start the fire, that will bring the FO down. This would be a weird statement, if there are other forces still opposing the FO, since a fire would already be burning.

 

I mean, they might recruit some allied forces after the events of TLJ, but I think the entire point of TLJ was that the Resistance was really alone in the fight against the FO and nobody was coming from them until Luke came back and spread hope in the galaxy.

 

A great man once said “Only a Sith deals in absolutes”.


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If I order a pizza and the pizza hasn't arrived yet without a full and good excuse, it doesn't mean that there are no pizzas that can be delivered.

Only based on the two unsupported assumptions necessary to make Leia's call for help in TLJ a mistake.

Yes so the fact that Britain stood alone against the Nazis did not meant that there were no extant forces that may have been compelled to stand with her at some point later on. The "stand alone" part was the key to your assumption that there was no potential for the resistance to be joined by anyone as yet uncommitted, but at a later time. That's another basic assumption on your part which purports to uphold a presumed certainty. Leia made the call after she knew the NR fleet was wiped out. The fact that whomever was hoped would heed the call did not immediately respond does not mean that they don't exist.

Until the end of ESB, there was no indication that the SW equivalent of RAF fighter command, plus its ground crew, all human, and the transports they used were not the only military force that existed in the GFFA besides the might of the Empire. The final scene of ESB presents us with cruisers, frigates and other warships in the Rebel fleet that were previously unseen and unheard of. ROTJ takes it further by presenting a Rebel Alliance with not only a more varied fleet, but a considerably more diverse personnel, right up to, suddenly, the highest command positions. Only relying on the first two films, you could presume with the same undue and spurious certainty that, in the GFFA, there were no other forces standing or capable of standing against the Empire than the humanoids in their fighters and limited number cruisers we had already gleaned even at the end of ESB.

It was already a full grown Rebel Alliance before ANH, according to the dialogue in that film which has been retroactively fulfilled by Rogue One. The fleet seen at the end of ESB is still only a fraction of the considerably expanded and diversified force what we would see in ROTJ, without any preparation or explanation.

By your logic, the lack of telegraphing what and who will coming the next movie means that those things cannot happen and those people don't exist.

For many people, not knowing what's going to happen next and exactly who it's going to happen to or with is one of the defining factors in something's entertainment value. Having the parameters and their concomitant outcomes totally unequivocated before hand is not something I would associate with entertainment.

Part of my job is observing and ensuring that expected outcomes are produced by a specified and exclusive set of preconditions. I wouldn't call it entertaining at all (except in the sense that it detains me from doing other things).

 

Indeed, but by the end of TLJ the Resistance was seen calling the pizza shop, and there was no answer. It is therefore logical to conclude the pizza shop has already closed. Therefore, it is realistic to not expect any pizza for some time.

No, but when the Germans invaded Western Europe, the opportunity to repel the attack with the help of outside forces was in that moment. However, help did not arrive in a timely fashion, and so the Germans were able to occupy a large part of Europe. The consequence of this is, that the momentum had been lost, and it would take five years to build alliances, and an overwhelming force, that would ultimately bring the Nazis to it's knees.

Now, I've been making two arguments:

1) A dozen people aboard the Millenium Falcon does not a rebellion make. As previous entries of the Star Wars films have shown, it should realistically take many, many years (two decades in fact and three movies) to build such an organisation with sufficient resources, personel, and equipment. Problem is we've only got a single movie, that will most likely not take place more than few years into future, possibly much less.

2) They could pull a giant army out of the outer rim or the unknown regions, that we've thusfar never heard about other than in the most general term of "allies", but that would be introducing another deux ex machina in the ST. We've already had a FO, a supposed fringe government, easily overrunning a galactic government, despite having their home base blown to smithereens, including all the resources, personel, and equipment that went with it. We would then have a rebellion pull an another giant army out of thin air to quickly reverse that situation.

No matter which solution the creators ultimately choose, victory in the GFFA is greatly diminished, because military power can just as easily be rebuilt, as it is destroyed, just because the plot requires it, not because it makes any logical story sense.

There was a logical progression in the films. ANH presented us with a relatively small, but capable group of rebels, that had a base, resources, personel, and equipment, and sympathy in the Senate. They were able to score a major victory with the destruction of the Death Star. By ESB a few years had gone by, and that victorious band of rebels had grown in resources personel, and equipment. By ROTJ another few years had passed, and the Rebellion had once again grown further.

TLJ presents us with a rebellion, that fits in a single ship. They have no base, resources, personel, and equipment. All their allies have abandoned them. They have nothing, but the legend of Luke Skywalker. There's just no comparison with the situation in ANH, where a Rebel Alliance had slowly been built over the course of two decades with everything that goes with it.

It's just poor story telling to keep pulling deux ex machinas out of thin air, and keep pushing the reset button. It has become the trilogy of instant Force powers, instant Empires, and instant rebellions. It greatly diminishes the world building Star Wars used to be known for.

 

There's a nack to facetious humour.

You are making a whole load of assumptions from what the movie isn't telling us so as to dictate what should and shouldn't appear in the next movie. But calling it poor storytelling because it does not explicitly tell us to expect what other people correctly identify as being conceivable in the next movie until we are explicitly told otherwise.

By the end of ESB, to be exact. And there was no prior indication that the rebels had ships of that size and nature until they appeared at the end of ESB.

The logic you have applied is based on your impression of what was presented to us by the end of the trilogy. There were no logical certainties for how the trilogy would progress. That's the convenience of hindsight.

That's not what deus ex machina is. A deus ex machina is and untold influence that magically eliminates all difficulties with the plot that could have been solved in the first instance if that influence had been magically made available then. It does not mean an influence that had been reported as missing, tardy or just enigmatic. (see Luke's instant success and never before seen force pull power in the early scenes of ESB)

Except in the popular scenario of the fan assuming equitable ownership of the narrate and expecting to have their hard earned omniscience upheld by being kept unequivocally in the loop about what could happen and what will happen, and who will be involved.

If the people who Leia called out to for help had answered andarrived right at the end of TLJ that would not have been Deus Ex Machina. It still won't be if they are revealed in the next movie along with their excuse for having been absent.

 

Not by the end of a trilogy, but over the course of a trilogy. The Rebel Alliance grew over three films to the point, where a final confrontation at Endor would decide the fates of all involved. No such natural progression exists in the ST. We have a New Republic controlling the galaxy, that is attacked by a fringe government in the unknown regions. We have a Resistance, that succeeds in destroying the fringe government's home base, and presumably a large part of their resources, personel, and equipment. By the next movie the FO is magically given unlimited resources, and the New Republic is instantly (and unrealistically) erased from history. The Resistance are suddenly referred to as rebels (as if the Empire versus rebels rehash wasn't obvious enough), and are then themselves reduced to such a small number, that they all fit in the Millenium Falcon. For dramatic purposes I'm sure, but it doesn't make their chances of restoring freedom to the galaxy very realistic in the forseeable future. However, by the end of the next movie the situation will most likely be reversed, and so either the rebellion will be given some growth hormones, or another army has to be pulled out of thin air to do it for them.

Deus ex machina:

"The term has evolved to mean a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the inspired and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object. Its function can be to resolve an otherwise irresolvable plot situation, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending".

I think a never before seen military force, that for plot convenience only presents itself at the eleventh hour, and brings the tale to a happy ending, fits the definition perfectly. Luke's force pull is thus also a deus ex machina. It was a sudden, unexpected ability, that resolved an otherwise irresolvable plot situation, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending (he did not become food). In this case the situation is mitigated by the fact, that it was only used to show Luke's progression in the Force, and in the end it didn't really save the day, since Luke became lost in the snow, and would have died, if his friend hadn't come to the rescue.

It will be, if two men and a dog almost instantly turn into a military force capable of defeating the FO. I can picture the crawl for Star Wars episode X, where we learn the FO, now reduced to twelve stormtroopers in a shuttle, turn out to have a giant army waiting in the shadows, that we previously never heard about. Who knows, maybe Snoke's twin brother will also be present to liven things up, and corrupt Rey's Jedi Academy of instant Force users. I'm sure many would even then argue, it's good storytelling, because you know, the lack of telegraphing what and who will be coming the next movie, doesn't mean that those things can't happen and those people don't exist.