Saga Did TFA make the OT pointless?

What's the difference? You are applying logic that has been inferred in hindsight to uphold the trilogy's "progression". If different sized forces of different natures had appeared at the same points in the trilogy, you would have had to infer a different logic that the trilogy "followed" as it progressed.

And that's not what is in the movie. If someone calls for help in a story suggests that nobody is likely to come or the one's that could show up are not compelled to or not the ideal solution, but then the cops show up or somebody shows up (a neighbour) when they seemed to want to stay out of it, that's called a reversal - not deus ex machina. The way you're using it - a plot development that is not forecast or proven to be the natural and inevitable solution without any impediments to its use - would mean that something like

Spoiler: To Kill A Mockingbird

Boo Radley's intervention in To Kill A Mockingbird

is a "d.e.m.". Or the

Spoiler: Vertigo

fatefully curious nun appearing in the bell tower because she heard voices

is a deus ex machina.

You're altering the terms to there being a force eminently capable of defeating the FO, in whatever strength the appears to be in by the next movie either by itself or with the resistance.

Your argument up til now was that a force willing to stand with the resistance cannot make an entrance in IX because no indication has been given that they, whoever they might be, could exist in the GFFA following the NR fleet's destruction (a couple of days previously in the story).

No indication except that Leia making call to them, whoever they might be, that apparently went unheeded, means that she's either deluded and senile or her character knows more about the potential within the rest of the galaxy than you know about or the film-makers have had their druthers to let on at this moment.

Yeah. About that nack, and how to get it.

 

Look it's really not that difficult:

Rebels ROTJ > rebels end ESB > rebels start of ESB > rebels end of ANH

Additionally years have passed between each of the OT films, making this progress logical and natural.

You don't need hindsight to determine that by the end of ESB the rebels are a larger force than at beginning of ESB, and at the start of ANH.

You also don't have to be a genius to observe, that the FO, presented as a fringe government of extremists in TFA, were able to overrun the Galactic Government of the Republic, consisting of a multitude of systems in a matter of days, despite the fact that the destruction of SKB should have diminished their capabilities, just like the attack of SKB diminished the capabilities of the New Republic. However, since the writers wanted Empire vs rebels, the New Republic had to disappear, and the FO were conveniently given the resources of an Empire.

To make matters worse, the creators of TLJ decided, that by the end of the movie the group of rebels would be so small, as to be almost non-existent. However, this group of rebels will somehow have to defeat the FO by the end of the next movie. So, either the rebellion is going to grow at an unrealistic rate, or they're going to get help from some unseen force, that for reasons of plot convenience couldn't be bothered to hault the FO's progress in this film.

So:

Rebels ep IX >>> rebels end of TLJ <<< rebels start of TLJ <<< rebels + New Republic TFA

There's no natural story progression. Fringe government instantly and conveniently becomes an Empire. New Republic instantly and conveniently turns to dust. The rebellion is decimated, and by episode IX will again be a force to be reckoned with, because there's always a convenient contingent of troops waiting in the shadows for whomever the writers want to win this time round.

I'm not altering anything. I've witnessed it happening in TLJ, where the FO was suddenly put into God mode to facilitate the Empire versus rebels scenario. The rebels were then pounded into submission to the extend, that they were literally a few people on a space ship with not a single ally answering their call for help. However, given how the ST has developed over the first two films, we can expect a whole and healthy Rebel Alliance by the next movie, without a single explanation where they come from, as with so many things in this trilogy. That is, until popular demand forces the powers that be to release some book, that fills all the plot holes.

Indeed, because just introducing some unseen and largely unexplained force to reset the GFFA is not a good story device, and has already been used to reset the galaxy back to Empire versus rebels. Using another such device to reverse the situation is just poor storytelling in my view.

 

You're providing a retrospective logic, starting with ROTJ rebels and ending with ANH to prove it's not hindsight.

Logically speaking, the Empire has somehow "naturally" gotten larger in between movies since, clearly, ANH Imperials < ESB Imperials (even minus one death star) < ROTJ Imperials (got most of a death star too.)

There just isn't the same profession replicated in the manner that you inferred the "natural" logic of another trilogy from.


The irony is that you're imposing what you've inferred was the point of the OT and how that story unfolded, and declared the ST to be lacking because of its perceived variance from making those points in the same way, in a thread wondering if the FO and Resistance (for now) conflict in the ST somehow makes the OT "pointless".

The film TLJ clearly states that Kylo Ren and the FO will now conquer the rest of the galaxy unless someone stands in their way. That someone is presumed to be the Resistance without Luke, since Luke is AWOL like his two teachers were during the first twenty years of the Empire. The resistance almost dies. But due to the FO's preoccupation with torturing them and drawing Skywalker out, plus Ren's personal obsession with Luke, the resistance lingers long enough for Luke to stage a miracle in front of friends and enemies alike.

Miracles like this are, historically, natural places to begin, reinvigorate or even convert movements and people alike.

Arguably, the climax to TLJ sets up the flourishing of the once almost dead Resistance movement, and the faltering of the FO, beyond TLJ better than the sudden expansion and diversification that "happened" because of the events during the rebellion's so called "dark time". (was it even a dark time if, as you put it "ESB rebels > ANH rebels"?)

 

I specifically added the second paragraph to indicate you don't need ROTJ to make this observation.

There's nothing to indicate the Empire has gotten significantly larger or smaller in any of the OT films. They're a Galactic Empire. That they are large and powerful is a given.

The moment TLJ took the NR out of the equation, and regressed to Empire vs rebels, that opportunity was pretty much lost. All that is left is to observe that whatever the similarities, the OT did it better.

The film clearly states the FO reigns, and will control all major systems in weeks.

I disagree. The PT sets up The Emperor as trying to present himself as a benavolent dictator. We've also seen the beginnings of the rebellion, albeit in deleted scenes. The start of ANH is perfect, as the Emperor finally reveals himself as a tyrant, when he dissolves the Senate, and deploys the Death Star. The rebel's real victory (not some symbolic gesture like Luke's disappearing act) at the battle of Yavin results in increased support and resources. However, despite this support they are still vulnurable, and the Empire doubles its efforts to destroy the growing rebellion with a reign of tyranny, that culminates in the battle of Hoth. The OT makes sense, and provides context. The ST does not.

 

ESB is dark time wen the Alliance is evicted from their Yavin bases are now being pursued and etc. And they were all human still. So you definitely do need ROTJ to illustrate that the Rebellion is bigger by the end of the trilogy.

There are more and bigger ships as the films came out. If you apply your own logic to what's depicted (indicated) in the films the forces of the Empire naturally get bigger and are at their biggest. No matter how "given" it is that they are the established dominant society in the galaxy.

However, because you only see the larger FO military engaging with the marginal resistance, you are claiming it to be taken as given that the FO is similarly dominant and cannot be opposed.

In weeks. So not at the moment. There's a reason for that obvious contradiction.

I'm taking about how the OT progreseed. No how the PT retrospectively explained and made sense of things.

ESB begins as a dark time and the rebellion succeeds only in things nor getting considerably darker (except for Luke, Leia and Han). So the sense of the considerable difference in scale and diversity seen in ROTJ is not set up or made sense of by either of the previous films. It just is and it was never a problem

 

Not at all. The first time we see the rebels have capital ships is in ESB, and we see a substantial fleet at the end of the film.

No, it's stated in the opening crawl: the FO reigns, and has decimated the New Republic. Only the Resistance stands against them. The fact that they were able to decimate a Galactic Republic in a matter of days with no one but Leia and her Resistance willing to oppose them implies they are similarly dominent, and cannot be opposed.

Not at all. There's no way a rebellion the size of a football team is going to be able to pose a significant threat to the FO's power structure in a matter of weeks.

Everything I wrote, except for the first sentence was part of the OT:

"The start of ANH is perfect, as the Emperor finally reveals himself as a tyrant, when he dissolves the Senate, and deploys the Death Star. The rebel's real victory (not some symbolic gesture like Luke's disappearing act) at the battle of Yavin results in increased support and resources. However, despite this support they are still vulnurable, and the Empire doubles its efforts to destroy the growing rebellion with a reign of tyranny, that culminates in the battle of Hoth."

The difference is, that the Rebel Alliance was always a considerable force in the OT with a base, resources, personel, and equipment:

"The Rebel Alliance is too well equipped, they're more dangerous than you realize!"

The growth of the Rebel Alliance also makes sense, considering the Emperor dissolved the Senate, and deployed the Death Star, showing his true colors. The Rebel Alliance's major victory at the battle of Yavin made it inevitable. So, everything was perfectly set up.

Conversly, TLJ establishes no other forces oppose the FO other than the Resistance. TLJ further shows the Resistance is decimated by the end of the movie. The rebels have no base, resources, personel, and equipment. All their allies have abandoned them. The situation is quite a bit more severe than at any time during the Galactic Civil War. Yet, by the next movie the FO will almost certainly be defeated by a reinvigorated Rebel Alliance, unrealistic as that may be.

 

Ships you assume they didn't have before (or somehow gained off screen during ESB) and are still a fraction of the massed rebel fleet seen in ROTJ.

And the final shot of the film shows that there is an untapped force out there now inspired by the heroics and the endurance of the resistance whom the FO failed to extinguish in spite of their advantage. Just because nobody exposit things in ST the way ANH was compelled to doesn't mean the conditions to foment rebellion are not shown.

It's presumptuous in the extremeto dictate the lack of "realism" in the plot of a movie not even finished yet.

 

It's funny you don't see the irony in that statement, considering the rebellion in the ST has been reduced to a handful of people residing in what Luke aptly called a piece of junk.

I'm not doubting Luke's action may have inspired people to take action. However, building alliances and obtaining resources, personel, and equipment takes time, especially if the starting point is a dozen people in a single ship.

It's not presumptuous, considering that the New Republic was wiped in an instant. That wasn't realistic, considering the New Republic consisted of an enormous number of systems, that should have been capable to mount a powerful defense, even with the destruction of the capital, especially knowing the FO had just endured an enormous setback with the destruction of the SKB. Realistically TLJ should have started with a stalemate with the FO and the New Republic regrouping, but that would be too original, and so the creators just pushed the reset button in favour of rehashing the Empire vs rebels scenario. Consequently, the New Republic was turned to dust, and the FO given infinite resources (in the words of Andy Serkis). There's no denying the ST has little regard for scale and time, just pulling resources out of thin air, or having them magically disappear, depending on who the creators want to be on top.

 

You presume to know how the plot for IX will develop.

 

Past is prologue, they say. I'm not saying the ST is without merit, and maybe JJ will be able to bring the trilogy to a satisfying conclusion, even for a pessimist like me. I personally feel the ST works much better as a soft reboot of the OT, a loose remake of sorts, than a natural continuation of Lucas' six film saga.

 

Just because they are the only ones standing against the First Order doesn't mean that the other people have been overrun and disarmed. The books aren't inconsistent.

 

Indeed. Other forces may exist, but it's clear that they won't stand up to the FO... yet.

 

That bit was covered by the sentence "Having decimated the peaceful Republic..."

Decimated: kill, destroy, or remove a large proportion of.

In other words they've been overrun, and are in no position to halt the FO's progress, whether armed or disarmed, since a large proportion of the New Republic's military capabilities have simply been destroyed. Consequently, Leia and her Resistance are the only ones left standing, since her forces haven't yet been scattered to the wind. Given the devopments in TLJ, that makes a short term reversal of the good guy's fortunes highly unlikely even with Luke to inspire them.

 

The Republic being decimated does not mean that remaining forces they had didn't flee to the Outer Rim or remain around there world's. They just aren't standing against their First Order.

 

True, but their position is equivalent to the Empire's position after the battle of Endor, when the Rebel Alliance was able to decimate the Galactic Empire. It took the Empire three decades to reinvent themselves and mount an offensive, which brings me back to my original argument, namely that a reversal of the good guy's fortunes is highly unlikely in the short term, as it was at the time the Emperor rose to power, when it took two decades for the good guys to again mount a serious offensive.

 

It wholly depends on how many forces are left. For all we know they are significant but were prepared to stand down. Ergo they may be in a far better position than the Rebellion even in ROTJ.

 

All we know is, that a large proportion of them were destroyed, so they are not in a good position. If they were prepared to stand down, they probably did it for a good reason, namely that they believed, that the war was lost. No one voluntarily submits to tyranny, if they've still got a significant military capability. Luke's symbolic act, while inspirational, did not change the good guys' military situation. In fact they got progressively worse as the movie revealed itself. So, I still feel there's very little in TLJ, that suggests a short term victory for the good guys is plausible.

 

The good guys were in chaos. Given what we know from the novel and other meterial it appears they have more forces than you suggest.

I never said a short term victory is possible. I said that they appear to have more forces than the Rebellion ever had.

 

Well I feel, if there were significantly more forces, we should have seen or heard from them in the movie. A scene with Leia attempting to convince various high ranking people to fight on would have made a huge difference. That way we would have known about these forces in movie canon, and we also would have known who got inspired by Luke's symbolic act, outside of some kids. Now the writers can just pull a big army from behind the curtain, with the weak excuse, that just because we didn't see them, doesn't mean they don't exist, which can then be applied to any situation in the future to again reset the conflict. I mean, just because it seems the FO were thoroughly beaten in episode 9, doesn't mean there can't be an enormous reserve army in the unknown regions?

 

I think it's implied by the movie that the Outer Rim allies are there but were prepared to give up. Maybe it should have been set up more, but it's not a contradiction and it's certainly not unprecedented for this franchise.

 

There is nothing weak about the resistance being able to rebuild the forces from units that were scattered all over the place. We have been through this before, multiple times in fact. Just because there is no coherent fighting force in any particular system, doesn't mean that the forces that are left could not be molded into such a coherent fighting force if brought together.

There is a clearly defined historic precedent for this, which also tends to match almost perfectly to the setup of the storyline in general.

The Allies were pushed from continental Europe in WW2, and Britain only hang on because invading those islands was almost impossible as long as the RAF and the british fleet were still there. Did that somehow mean that they were down and out and couldn't possibly return in force in the future? No, it didn't. Not only was there the obvious impact of the US and to a different degree the Soviet Union being involved in the war, but there were also reinforcements from all over the Commonwealth, with troops from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India and South Africa joining the effort.

And beyond that, you had Polish troops joining the western Allies after Poland had fallen. Over 80,000 Poles were fighting at the western front when Germany overran France. By the end of the war there were two Polish corps and over 200k troops fighting for the Allies. There were also the Free French, who fought alongside the British throughout the war. Further troops came from Czechoslovakia, Norway, the Netherlands and Belgium, all places that had been taken by the Nazis. Thus clearly showing that you can get people and resources from everywhere, even places that get taken by the enemy. Plenty of ships from all these nations also saw action alongside the British, thus showing that even material can be part of that support.

There no longer being a proper army does not mean that there aren't people and material that can be used to fight. The issue is - and always has been in such instance - that you need to bring the people and resources together to form a new army that can fight the enemy, not that there isn't anyone out there who is willing and capable of fighting.

Another example would be remnants of destroyed armies being used to rebuild the army or set up a new one. German troops flooding back from France during autumn 1944 were a complete mess. There was no order. Then special units were set up to process all the troops that arrived, reforming them into proper combat-units again, which allowed Germany to build a proper frontline again. All these people on their own were completely useless, their units and command-structure destroyed, and remants being spread out all over the place. But when they were taken in and put into a properly set up system again, they were able to continue to fight in the expected manner.

 

I never stated, they could not be molded together. I stated it would be unrealistic for this to happen in a relatively short time span. There are two precedents for this in the GFFA:

1) The Rebel Alliance seen in the OT, which took two decades to grow to a size capable of challenging the Empire's power structure.
2) The FO, which took three decades to grow to a size capable of challenging the New Republic's power structure, following the decimation of the Empire.

I argued, I suspect episode 9 will probably take place at most a few years into the future. I also suspect, there will be a full fledged Rebel Alliance in episode 9, fully capable of challenging the FO's power structure. I would not consider such a scenario very realistic in the context of the rest of the saga.

The reason I consider such a scenario likely, is that a similar scenario was enacted in TLJ, where the FO were able to decimate the New Republic in a matter of days following the destruction of the SKB. I consider this the most damning evidence, that the current creators are perfectly willing to push the reset button on the GFFA, by pulling some unseen and unexplained military resources from behind the curtain, conveniently residing in the outer rim, or the unknown regions, to almost instantly move the plot in whatever direction they want. This is an arbitrary plot device, that causes a loss of the suspension of disbelief. I consider that weak writing.

I will refrain from commenting on the historical analogies, since we've been over that a number of times already.

 

It'd only be unrealistic if you assume there are no other established forces.

 

The Rebel Alliance did not take 2 decades to grow into a size capable of challenging the Empire's power structure. Simply, the Alliance was not formed in ROTS.

I don't really understand why it's ok for the Alliance to go from a Medical frigate and a couple of tranports to a full fleet with cruisers in a few years, but somehow not possible for the Resistance to go from the Millenium Falcon to a fleet in a few years? You can coalesce a bunch of survivors, refugees, bands of randoms etc. into a fighting force quite easily. It's been done countless times throughout history. Following TLJ, it's not a matter of will, that's made clear by the end of the movie wherein all who would resist have been given hope, so it's more a matter of the materiel and ships. How long does it take to build a fleet? We simply have no information on that. But building a fleet with new ships was never what the Rebels did back in the day anyway, they converted civilian ships or used old ones.