CT Did the Emperor trust Vader?

I was just rewatching RotJ, and was thinking about the beginning of the lightsaber duel, when Luke swings his blade at Palpatine, and Vader blocks it before it strikes his master. This got me thinking on the relationship between the two Sith lords.

How much faith did the Emperor actually put in Vader? Was he risking his life by waiting on Vader to protect him, or did he have a backup plan in case Vader decided to betray him? Treachery is the way of the Sith, after all, but, from the same book that quote comes from is a line where Mace Windu senses that Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker. (Stover's RotS novelization, for those interested.)

However, that was a long time before the events of RotJ. I'd like to discuss the relationship between these two Sith Lords, and how that relationship may have evolved following Anakin's "resurrection" after the Duel on Mustafar.

Edit: I'm fine with EU (Legends or otherwise) information being used as evidence, so if a moderator feels this is better suited for that forum, please, feel free to move it.

 

Vader did not believe that he could take down Palpatine alone, but was certain that he could do so with Luke. Luke was not powerful enough at that time (Vader beat him with the darkside), but with training, Vader figured they could overpower the Emperor. So he did not feel that Luke's hot tempered strike would work. The Emperor would use the Force to stop him - he didn't need a lightsaber. While Vader's save could be seen as instinctual, i.e., saving his master and showing his loyalty (in order to keep the Emperor in the dark while he won Luke over to the darkside to definitively defeat his master), it could also be seen as the 'good in him' acting on instinct in saving his son from taking that dramatic step toward the darkside - as the Emperor intended.

 

The Emperor trusted Vader to be his enforcer. When it came to recruiting Luke to join the dark side, not as much. At least not beyond the point in which Vader got Luke to either join the Sith or be forced to join, as was attempted in ROTJ. Either way, Palpatine wanted Luke as his new apprentice, and he wasn't going to let Vader do anything that might jeopardize that. Vader's role was to convince Luke to join them, but he was obviously unsuccessful.

As xx_Anakin_xx stated, Vader would have only been a true threat to Palpatine if he had a trained Luke on his side. Vader's deflection of Luke's blade can be construed as him "saving" his son from a certain retaliation by Palpatine, or by loyalty. If Vader didn't block it, Palpatine probably wouldn't have been very happy with Vader, either. As we saw in the PT, Palpatine may have had a lightsaber up his sleeve... so he could have blocked it himself or used the lightning.

 

Vader was already plotting to kill Palpatine before The Empire Strikes Back even started. As soon as he realized Luke was his son, he came to terms with that revelation, and he decided he would turn Luke to the Dark Side and together they would kill Palpatine and "rule the galaxy as father and son." All of that comes before the opening crawl in Empire even begins. Subsequently, the first shot of the film is some of Vader's probe droids heading out all over the galaxy, looking for the Rebels and Luke.

Now it's obvious in Empire that Palpatine also found out about Luke, albeit independently from Vader. From Vader and Palpatine's conversation on the Executor, it's clear that they had never spoken about Luke before, which implies Vader had been searching for his son without telling Palpatine, perhaps even protecting him. Vader and the Emperor's conversation is rich with subtext -- both know about Luke, and both know that Vader has been searching for Luke without telling Palpatine; however, neither of them say this out loud ... Palpatine is trying to ascertain Vader's intentions, and Vader 1) doesn't want Palpatine to find out he wants to kill him and 2) wants to save Luke's life

The Emperor is politically savvy and smart enough to suspect anyone around him at all times, including Vader -- but he would be especially careful with Vader now that Luke is in the picture. He may not be 100% suspicious of Vader yet, but he knows it's a possibility, and that's why he orders Vader to leave the asteroid field and talk to him. He knows at the very least Vader is trying to protect Luke from him, and at worst Vader is plotting against him.

Onto the conversation ... as opposed to the SE version -- where Vader acts like a sneaky child obviously lying to his father and trying to get away it -- in the OOT version Vader cooly and calmly acknowledges to the Emperor what he's been up to and that Skywalker is just a boy and not a big deal. The Emperor persists in accusing Luke of being a serious threat, and in an attempt to save Luke's life and continue his own machinations, Vader tries to persuade the Emperor that Luke can be turned rather than be killed.

Finally, the emperor agrees with Vader's plan but it's unclear how soon he hatched his own plan ... namely he wants the younger Luke to kill insubordinate Vader and become his new apprentice.

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tl;dr cliff notes

1. Vader already plans to kill the Emperor before Empire Strikes Back even starts
2. Emperor catches Vader looking for Luke without telling him; suspects Vader is trying to help Luke at a minimum, might even be plotting against him
3. Vader plays it cool and tries to convince the Emperor to convert Luke to the dark side instead of killing him (Vader wants Luke to team up with him and take over together)
4. Palpatine agrees (because he figures one of them will kill the other)

Although he's only in one scene in Empire, I like how the Emperor goes along with Vader's scheme, but then in Jedi you can clearly tell he's getting annoyed with him. That's another nice touch.

 

Palpatine did not trust Vader because of his love for Padme he knew he would protect her against the jedi & sith alike.

 

VADER (after a beat)
My son is with them.

EMPEROR (very cool)
Are you sure?

VADER I have felt him, my Master.

EMPEROR Strange, that I have not. I wonder if your feelings on this matter are
clear, Lord
Vader.

VADER They are clear, my Master.

This being so near to his doom I think he was very much risking his life trusting Vader after this point.
Perhaps his arrogance blinded him.
As for the earlier(chronological) episodes the way Sidious/Palpatine uses his apprentices he is a fool if he trusts any of
them fully. According to him, he killed his own master.

 

By Jedi I don't think Sidious trusted Vader much at all.

 

Palpatine was supremely overconfident and probably thought that Vader would never dare move against him. After all he is the Emperor, the greatest, the unbeatable. All are insects in the light of his greatness.

 

Indeed. Palpatine even tells Luke that Vader is his slave and can never turn back from the dark side. He cannot even sense the conflict within Vader that Luke can.

 

Yep. It's obvious he was at his most arrogant at that point. He'd become as blind to the fact Vader could betray him as the Jedi were blind to Palpatine. Then again he was unchallenged for so long you can't necessarily blame him.

If he didn't trust him at that point, why would he have Vader at his side when he tried to turn Luke?

 

Well, he needed Vader to help Luke along, just as he did with Tyranus years earlier. Palpatine knew that Luke harbored great anger towards his father for his treacherous acts over the years and that he could exploit this to his advantage in turning Luke. Just as he set up great animosity between Anakin and Dooku following their battle on Geonosis. Hence when the time came and he thought Luke was ready, he encouraged him to kill his father. Only underestimating the compassion Luke had for Anakin, which wound up saving him in the end.

 

This is an open taunt in Vader's face, not a sign that he trusted him. Palpatine has zero trust in Vader during Jedi, and was already suspicious of him during their one scene together in Empire.

 

I'm reminded of what someone wise once said in a Star Wars movie:
"Do not underestimate, the powers of ... The Emperor."

Palpatine was not blind to the fact that Vader might betray him. Eventually he figured out Vader was using him to turn Luke to the Dark Side and that Vader was planning to kill him afterward. He also had some influence on Vader through the dark side. He's extremely annoyed with Vader and tired of him throughout Jedi, and openly mocks him to his face repeatedly.

But I doubt Palpatine was worried as long as Luke hadn't been turned yet. In fact, it was probably his preferred plan to turn Luke by making him use the dark side to kill his father, as that would have been the safest outcome for him.

 

Palpatine's supreme arrogance also shows in his plan against the rebellion. A classical all eggs in one basket tactic. Surprise, surprise when all the eggs were broken at once. At this point he is simply delusional, which would explain why Vader wanted to topple him.

 

Huh? Lol.

 

I think Sidious trusted no one but himself.

 

With his usual flawed foresight, Palps foresaw Vader's parry saving himself from Luke's attack, but he totally failed to foresee himself getting the reactor shaft.

 

He seemed rather trusting of Vader on the DS in ROTJ. He seemed fully confident that Vader would block Luke's strike. And when Luke had Vader on the ropes, Sidious told him to kill him and take his place. And after saying that, he allowed Vader to get up and get close enough to grab him from behind and toss him down the shaft. If I had just made it clear to someone that I wanted him dead, I don't think I would let that person catch me in a vulnerable position ever again - much less two minutes later.

Either he trusted Vader or felt like he had a leash on him through the Dark Side. Either way, it was the wrong move.

 

That was more like an overconfidence in his powers, he thinks that Vader wouldn't dare to betray.

 

Well, if you let someone get in a position where they can kill you before you have time to respond....

I obviously couldn't beat up Mike Tyson in fight. However, if he had his back turned and I had a large knife in my hand and could get one good strike with it before he had any chance to retaliate, maybe I could take him out. I'm sure many women have killed abusive husbands in a similar fashion. You can kill anyone who trusts you by waiting until their vulnerable. Heck, Sidious killed Plageious in his sleep.

 

Stupidity. Palpatine was beaten by Mace Windu, which should tell him not to overestimate his abilities, but turns his back on one of the most dangerous beings of the galaxy.

 

I think he trusted him a fair way. The extent to which he didn't trust him, I think he felt he had him covered. Guess he felt wrong...

 

As the Evil Overlord List puts it:

147: I will classify my lieutenants in three categories: untrusted, trusted, and completely trusted. Promotion to the third category will be awarded posthumously.

 

I think he trusted Vader as much as a Sith can trust anyone. They both know how the rule of two works, so it's all good until **** goes down.

 

Or in this case, it's all good until Sith goes down.