CT Did the Emperor trust Vader?

As a Sith, you should be alittle smarter than to trust anyone under you...or over you. Anyone in general, really.

The Emps was fully aware of Darth Vader's ultimate intentions, I think he even suspected in ROTS it would only be natural that Anakin would turn on him at some point. If he's true to the Sith code, he knows the more powerful should rule. But, once he got in the suit I think Palps kinda felt like his wild dog had a powerful leash on him. He knew Vader secretly hated him, he knew that Vader resented him and thought he should be eliminated so DV could rule... but I think he also knew Vader wouldn't have the courage to try and take him out while in the suit, it would be a suicide mission, and as much as Vader was self loathing and miserable, he did enjoy the power he had and as for his bad choices; he made his suit, might as well live in it.

So, in conclusion, he knew he shouldn't trust him, but I think he did because he underestimated the light still in him. That's the only reason he died at the hands of Vader, if Luke never came around he would've stayed his obedient servent until they both eventually died. It even shows in EU material that the few times Vader does disobey him, it's small things, let setting a slave free when no one's looking, or keeping his own little secret projects away from the Emporer... never planning a full out assisination on his own.

 

It also shows in EU that Vader always had the light side inside of him, for that reason I never see him as a true sith. He was more like a bully.


Jedi : ''You... you are not even a tyrant. You are a thug... the lackey of a true Sith.''

 

Jedi : ''You... you are not even a tyrant. You are a thug... the lackey of a true Sith.''

Says the man who is about to be completely broken. Sith don't need to be 100% evil, Maul wasn't and Vader wasn't. There is no rule that every Sith has to be this over the top cackling lunatic.

 

Darth_Pevra

Actually, that's the reason why I am a Maul supporter, he is a pure engine of anger and darkness. No light inside of him.

 

Except for his brother, who is murdered by Palpatine which results in his begging for his life a moment later. Having some semblance of good doesn't make one not a true Sith.

 

But Palpatine did the same against Windu, Sith craves for life and they don't want to die.

 

Palpatine wasn't serious. He was manipulating Anakin and Mace. That's why he's smiling as soon as Anakin stops Mace and why he yellls, "Power! Unlimited Power!!!" He was telling Mace that he wasn't ever beaten.

 

Disagree. I believe without Anakin, he was going to die, he just used the opportunity to kill Mace.

Another example on this matter ;

 

From what I always gathered is the Sith never trusted each other? So if that be the case then Vader and Sidious never trusted each other. They were both waiting for the right apprentice to come along and take one or the other out with that new apprentice. Sidious never seemed to have any allies. He instead had tools to help him gain his goals. Whenever I see Vader and Sidious standing next to each other I can just hear the Odd Couple song in my head.

 

The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness.

--The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; Page 204

"(Palpatine is now laying down) But this part where he pretends to lose his power and become weak is something that I added later. Cause this moved the point where Anakin turned to this moment right here."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"Okay, well this sequence always started out with Mace, uh, overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his Lightsaber. It always was that Anakin cut the Lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later cause this is it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you can see that he’s now that its very clear that he’s, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"It made a lot more sense to have him stay loyal to the Jedi which meant later on in this scene with the fight with Mace, we re-did that scene and at first there wasn’t the part where the Emperor gives up, he goes - “You got me! You got me!”. It was basically the scene without that where it gets more intense and Anakin finally breaks down and saves him, but it didn’t have the same feeling as that pause in there where you think…and it makes the emperor a lot more slimy, it's really fun. it’s a dramatic thing to deal with."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

And thanks to Christopher Lee, that line was cut out. Course, the line was different.

PALPATINE: "Kill him. Kill him now."

DOOKU: "But you promised me immunity."

Lee felt it was undignified for Dooku to beg and Lucas agreed.

 

Darth Sinister

Yeah it is the same in RotS Novel as well, Dooku beg again.

As for this ;

''now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness.''

Why not same for Maul ? Maul might pretend like weaker than he really is, but of course Sidious knew that, and he still shoot the lightning.

 

Because Maul was actually weaker due to his being cut in half. Much like Vader was weaker. Also, Maul was actually afraid for his life whereas Palpatine wasn't afraid at all. He was pretending to be weak. Read all the quotes. The comic and the book were finalized before the final cut of the film. That's always typical.

 

I've read, It seems to me the same, shooting lightning to someone who is actually weaker is making no sense to me as well. The big difference between Maul and Vader is, Vader would die with that lightning due to his life support system and breathing apparatus.

 

Actually I believe he was. In fact that's precisely why he was destroyed in the first place.

Last time I checked the devil doesn't give refunds. When you sell your soul that's it, he owns you for your life. The Emperor did not believe that Vader was capable of committing a selfless act. Luke was right, the devil's weakness was always his overconfidence. In the end the dark was no match for the light.

Which is why once Vader saw the light, disposing of the Emperor was as simple as tossing away an old napkin.

 

I'm sure at the start he felt Anakin was just his pawn to use. That Anakin was so devoted to the cause especially when he became Vader that he didn't need to worry. Yet after the First Death Star he probably became wary of how Vader began to act.

 

Pre-Mask Vader was already planning the Emperors death in ROTS as he stated, once injured and his family was dead or so he thought, he lost motivation to do so.
As soon as he found out he had a son, he started planning to take him out again, it is the the Sith way. Historically every Sith has betrayed their master and they all know this, but they don't make their move until they think or perhaps know they are now stronger. Essentially Sidious would be moving onto his 4th apprentice with Luke if he killed his dad. He wanted a balance of strength and obedience. I think by the end of the fight he could see Vader was compromised in every way.
Vader wasn't stupid he new he had been a pawn of Sidious in that Dooku fight and that was basically a controlled false flag, he would known they were on the same team, later on. So when he ordered Luke to kill him it's deja vu, but this time it's father and son. Even if Vader wasn't going to the light side, he should be angry enough with his master at this point to do what he did. And Sidious had forgotten Vader would do ANYTHING to protect family, torturing his son to death with force lighting right in front of him, was the stupidest move ever by Sidious.

 

I disagree. You can clearly see he shares some brotherly feelings with Savage, especially when Savage dies.

 

I disagree with whom you are saying Sidious is, Pevra. He can't be that as he was always a physical being. All physical beings have greyness within no matter how light or dark they seem save One.

 

Save one? Who? Voldemort? I like to think that Sidious had no light within him at all. That does not mean he couldn't feign love and care as a means to whatever dastardly end he was plotting. But I don't think he genuinely had a speck of light or grey, just darkness. Vader, and some others on both sides were grey - but I like my baddies in black hats and the good guys in white hats, so I hand grey hats out sparingly.

I realize that some of the GFFA writers disagree with that and are all over the 'everything is grey' ideology, so I think the books/comics/etc do reflect that ideology at times and I also think one could interpret the movies that way, but I don't.

 

He isn't a physical being, he is a fictional character. And both George Lucas and McDiarmid have gone on record that he is basically pure evil, the devil. I'm not a fan of this walking cliché either, but I can't do anything about it. Lets hope some EU authors give us more depth on Palpatine.

 

They did. And then their work was made Legends.

The usual approach is that he's a "natural-born sociopath" - whose personality traits were accentuated by Sith training.

 

Yes you are right, there were a few books in which he was given a little more depth.

 

The Darth Plagueis novel probably did it best.

Palpatine was still a teenager, and not yet recruited as a Sith, when Plagueis said:

"You're heartless, ambitious, arrogant, insidious, and without shame or empathy. More, you're a murderer."

 

Wasn't that the same for Anakin to Sidious ? Sidious tried to save him with great effort at Mustafar because he needed him as a tool, sure Maul cared for Savage, but more like because Savage was really a great tool for him.