Saga Did the Force become too much of a gimmick over time?

One of the things I really liked about TFA is, that it made the Force something special again. Kylo stopping the laser beam in mid-air, and the way Rey was stopped in her tracks, among other things, really gave the sense of the Force being powerful, and scary in the wrong hands, just like it had been when we first saw Vader deflect a laser beams with his hands, or pound Luke with debris, or the Emperor with Force lightning.

While I really like TCW, and like many new aspects the PT introduced to the saga, I allways felt the Force became somewhat stale as the years rolled by. If you're good, you have the power of levitation, you can Force push, influence the weak minded, read people's mind, if you're bad, you can do the same, and shoot lightning out of your fingers. It all seemed very gimmicky, and repetitive. There really wasn't anything that differentiates a great Jedi from an average one. Sure, we were told Yoda, and Anakin were really special, but what we were shown, is that they could all just do the same things pretty effortlessly.

I hope the ST will continue to treat the Force as something that you have to be in awe off, something spiritual, using it sparingly, and for dramatic effect, not to create a bunch of super heroes in God mode. At least this shot in the TLJ trailer certainly gave me the chills:

Spoiler

What do you think?

 

My favorite aspects of Star Wars always come back to "mundane" human emotion, not awe as it relates to an energy field that affords some characters superhuman abilities. Although the latter can still be entertaining certainly, and along those lines I don't see much difference in the portrayal of those abilities across the various films.

 

That shot alone sent my interest level from 'this looks cool' to 'Woah wtf?!?!' in an instant

 

I think she's in a wind tunnel. Or an 80s metal video. Fan on full power as she crowd surfs.

Kylo's force powers were probably some of the best things about TFA. They were just new and powerful enough to be intriguing without going too far into the realm of eye roll.

But as far as Jedi/Sith having similar abilities to one another; that gave the force grounding. We start getting into force teleportation or time travel and it has gone too far. Or perhaps Kylo learns to stop time. Pass on that stuff.

 

I'm not sure if "gimmick" is the word I'd use. In a galaxy where only a few people are trained to use the Force and/or are just learning, it's going to feel more 'special' than in a galaxy where there are loads of people roaming around using it everyday.

And then there's just the differences in filmmaking, styles of shots and so forth.

The look that we're getting now is a good one, I totally agree on that. Scenes have a visceral feel to them that I think really does sink the hooks in more.

 

Yoda caught lightning with his bare hands. I'd say that marks him out as pretty special.

The whole deal with Anakin is that he had great potential but in the PT he never gets the chance to reach the level of someone like Yoda.

 

Yes, I agree. The Sidious/Yoda fight was pretty epic.

 

I don't really see anything that would have made the force appear stale at any point, nor anything that would make it special again in TFA.
I think the prequels made it pretty clear that there was a big difference between those who were strong and those were were the absolute peak. Dooku could throw Anakin around like a ragdoll when Anakin first faced him, but Yoda more or less mocked him when he tried to mess with him. Capturing the lightning is to me a whole lot more impressive than holding a blaster bold in the air or freezing Rey, as it is done while facing another force-user. Same with Palpatine vs. Yoda, basically the only time we truly got to see two equally powerful force-users of the highest level fight each other. The way Palpatine could throw around senate pods at his leisure or how Yoda could catch and return them, or how they matched up with the lightning, that is far beyond what we have seen from anyone else.

The thing is, circumstances decide how character compare to others. In the OT Luke was no match for Palpatine, while Vader toyed with Luke in ESB and didn't really do anything of note in ROTJ. Beyond that you had Vader choking a few officers or Obi Wan doing a mind-trick. In TFA, Kylo Ren didn't really face any force-user when using his tricks. While Rey is able to use the force, this happened before she realised/acknowleged it. In the PT, when force-users deal with non force-users, they dominate, but that is mostly against droids. There are far more fights between force-users in them, and those obviously match up better with each other than if one of the combatants is not. There is still a very decisive difference in terms of skill between the various force-users though. The OT had to few force-users for this to happen, while the new movies also sees limited numbers, not to mention that it has only been one movie so far.

Animated shows are a bit different, because they don't really have the real-life behaviour that exists in the movies. You have some over the top stuff, plus lots of things that make a character look strong at a time for the purpose of making things more interesting, even if it doesn't make any sense in the grand scheme of things.

If I'd see a difference it is between the movies and the animated shows. The former seem pretty consistent if you take the circumstances into account, the latter are completely different.

 

I don't agree. What did Dooku really do to Anakin? Shoot some Force lightning at him, the standard Sith trick, after which we had another lightsaber duel. The one thing that stands out a bit, is Dooku dropping the ceiling on Yoda, but ultimately the movie itself undermines the whole Force angle, by having Dooku say: "It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber." Outside of the Yoda/Sidious fight, the way the Force powers were depicted was repetitive, and mostly made Force users come off like the X-men, mutants with super powers, who can run super fast, and jump tall buildings. There was hardly any awe, or mysticism.

In the OT the Force was about more than just physical enhancement. We had Force ghosts, and trippy sequences like in the cave of Dagobah. We had Luke and Vader sensing each other and communing over large distances. All the while an aura of mysticism was created. TFA does the same. Stopping a laser beam in mid air, the interrogation of Poe, Rey being stopped in her tracks, all were depicted in a far more dramatic way, and it made the Force seem special again. Then there's Rey's trippy Force vision, which gave the proceedings a sense of the mysticism.

 

Sorry to be so predictable but I don't see how TFA made the Force special again.

That says that at some point it became less special and I never saw that happen.

If it did somehow to some people that would depend on the context. To me that is the movies and TCW. Everything beyond that is not from Lucas and so as good as they may be has to be disregarded because it has only at best indirect impact on the movies. In terms of the new canon of course that also includes Rebels which is overseen by Filoni who was Lucas's student. One would hope that anything to do with the Force in particular is at least run by him to get his take.

With that as the starting basis then the PT and TCW added lots of the same in terms of giving the Force power and being scary in the wrong hands. I'd say that if anything the PT made it really scary because the full scope of it's power while touched upon was never give full context in the OT. The PT created that context that was missing. That Sidious wanted Anakin for his power is in action in the OT but like the Sith, Rule of Two, Balance of the Force etc etc it's the PT that adds to and gives the context.

I don't see this effortlessly aspect you do. They had a lot of effort. In that respect then I would say look to TFA for that "effortlessness" because in Lucas' Star Wars training and focus actually means something while in TFA the unfocused Kylo Ren can doo all sorts of thing and the non-trained Rey can effortlessly pick up what takes Jedi years to learn.

This is one of the conundrums of TFA that confuses me. On the one hand I know of a number of people who really got hung up on the midi-chlorians and for whatever reason took away from them that training didn't matter and it was all about midi-chorians counts. This is of course incorrect. The midi-chlorians are just the entry point. All it really means is that you are attuned enough to the Force itself that you are what we call "Force sensitive".

If Lucas had Qui-Gon pull out a Kyber crystal pendant in TPM and place it around Anakin's neck and it glowed bright blue and Qui-Gon said:

"Obi-Wan, I've just give Anakin the Kyber test. The Force sensitivity intensity is higher than Master Yoda's."

Then there would be no complains because it would be "mystical".

What really matters is the training, listening to the Force and reaching out with your feelings but controlling them not being controlled by them.

Yet they seem to love that Rey who has no training at all can tap into the Force in an instant. So the point in the OT and PT is that you need training. The premise that anyone can do it (which some people took away from the OT) was to their eyes taken away in the PT where you needed midi-chlorians. Now as I said if the same thing had been said but with Kyber Force sensitivity levels I doubt they'd feel the same way.

In the ST with Rey she is clearly super special and on top of that doesn't really need training. She'll figure it all out in two tries.

How exactly that makes the Force more accessible I don't know. What I take away from it is that now it's wish fulfillment whereby you just have the powers and don't need the training at all.

When did it ever have "super heroes in God mode" ?

This never happened in the Lucas movies or TCW.

If anything the "God mode" is what TFA harkens too as the Resistance wants the lost "God" Luke to come back and Rey is the new young "God" to battle the two "Gods" that the First Order has.

Certainly the Jedi Order were not Gods or superheroes. I think if anything people I know would have preferred that they were as opposed to 'the keepers of the peace not soldiers' that the PT showed us.

 

The Jedi Police Force...10 thousand or so Jedi does, in my mind, kinda dilute the uniqueness a Force sensitive should have. And yes, the GFFA is a big, big place I know. But seeing a class of kids clutching lightsabres, wearing helmets with the blast shields down etc did tend to do that for me.

 

I disagree. Most of the OT was written from the point of view of ordinary people, rebels, a smuggler, a princess, imperial officers, a seemingly ordinary farm boy. From the audience and their perspective these space wizards were something special and mysterious. The first time we see the Force in action, is when Vader chokes Admiral Tagge, next we see Obi-Wan apply a Jedi mind trick, and that was it until Luke's training aboard the Falcon. Finally we see Obi-Wan disappear into thin air, and become this ethereal voice. There was an air of mystery around the Force, and like the lightsaber, the Force was used sparingly in ANH, TESB, and ROTJ, and usually for powerful dramatic effect, like when Vader pounds Luke into submission by throwing objects at him, or when the seemingly feeble Emperor showed Luke that it was he who is feeble. In addition there were sequences involving the Force that weren't about pounding your enemy into submission, like Force ghosts, Force users communing through the Force, and sensing each other's thoughts, and fears. This made it mystical and special. The PT was written completely from the Jedi point of view, and having these powers became common place. Of course we were told how difficult it was to master these powers, but ultimately they all basically did the same thing, some Force pushes, Force pulls, and of course the IMO overused lightsaber. The Force was treated as a bunch of super powers, and ultimately both the Jedi and the Force were demystified.

Sure Sidious wanted Anakin for his power, but what power? We were told Anakin was special, but in the end he seemed just like any other ordinary Jedi. It would have been interesting if we were shown, that Anakin had some powers other Jedi didn't, like the power of foresight, or some other thing that made him special. Almost any conflict in the PT was solved with a lighsaber, and not by knowledge of the Force.

It's not so much about what they do, it's how these powers are used to tell the story. In TFA the Force powers are used for dramatic efect, When Kylo interrogates Poe, we see this ordinary guy being tortured by some unseen power:



This is how you show the power of the Force, through an emotional performance. TFA used the Force sparingly like the OT, adding some mystey with Rey's Force vision, but also showing it's raw power through the eyes of ordinary people:



The audience have more in common with Poe and the imperial officer than a Jedi, or a Sith, or any other Force user. I think it's important to show the Force from the perspective of non-Force users, because it's only from their perspective that we see it's immense power. By only showing the Force from the perspective of Jedi, it becomes ordinary, like a world populated by only giants. How can you be in awe of a giant's size, if there are no little people to provide the perspective of a little person.

 

Yet the major points of view of the Force were from Jedi and Sith and Luke the "seemingly ordinary farm boy" who really is hardly that at all. Who else really was talking about it? No one who really has experience with it.

I note that you left out what was mystical and special about the actual duels themselves. Which rather makes my point as the audience doesn't have full view of the complete scope of the Force and it's impact. It can come off as something that doesn't give the full encompassing aspect of it.

Not completely as we have Anakin in TPM but the idea that it's "commonplace" is clearly not the case. It actually makes the point it's very rare and difficult even if you have a strong connection to the Force. Even then the Jedi might not take you in.

Sorry I just don't see how superpowers applies in that context. They are all drawing from the Force's energy. Clearly we see the difference between the truly ultra top-tier Force users and the rest.

Use of a Lightsaber IS by definition "knowledge" of the Force in action. I don't think we really have to dissect what Dooku says down to the last scintilla do we? Call it Force skill if you like but you still have to learn it therefore it's knowledge.

If you think that Anakin just seems like any other ordinary Jedi after the three movies of the prequels then I don't know what the starting point would even be for you. He's clearly special in the extreme. He would become more powerful than Sidious or Yoda or is Yoda "just another Jedi" to your mind?

Before you were talking about the audience perspective applied to the OT but then you switched to in-universe to non-Force users.

The OT perspective was from the Force users as is the PT but you get insights in each and from non-Force users. So nothing really terrifically different all around.

 

Not at all, most of the OT heroes are non-Force users, even Leia, for who up till the last act of ROTJ we didn't know had any relation to Luke.

 

I don't feel like the Force ever became a gimmick. I will admit, although I was one of those that enjoyed the PT, by ROTS I did get to the point of feeling the Jedi used it a little too casually for my taste-especially after seeing the TCW series, and some of the crazy stuff they did there. Not too bad, but I'm reminded of the line Mrs. Weasely used in HP/Order of the Phoenix film: "JUST because you're allowed to use magic now, does NOT mean you need to whip your wands out for EVERYTHING!" Basically I felt a "less is more" approach to Force usage was more moving, in terms of plot-rather than just using the Force for the sake of using it. IMO TFA did a good job of walking that line; enough was shown to make us "oooh, aaah" at the screen, like when Kylo Ren stops the blaster bolt with the Force (something I've always thought about Jedi doing, and was so happy to finally see onscreen). But the overall usage of it was more like swear words in a PG-13 movie: only for dramatic effect.

 

That's because the PT and OT are from different perspectives. It's like the difference between The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings. The protagonists of the former are magical elves hailing from the realm of the gods; the protagonists of the latter are ordinary hobbits from a small country shire. I know a lot of people don't care for The Silmarillion, but it is what it has to be, and I don't see any point in criticizing it for not being what it has no business being. Same goes for the prequels: It's a time when the Jedi are ascendant and the power of the Force is made manifest on a daily basis. The OT, on the other hand, is a time when the Jedi are decimated and the Force has been reduced to a myth. The PT and Silmarillion represent a time when gods and fairy people walked the earth, while the OT and LOTR represent a time when magic is scarce and sequestered in scattered and remote regions.

I liked the use of the Force freeze power in TFA, but I found Rey's vision to be nothing more than a mundane Inception-esque cliche. Nothing particularly awe-inspiring or impressive. It was just a barely disguised mystery box teaser sequence. I much prefer Lucas's subtle use of foreshadowing and intimations of cosmic concordance hidden within the visual structure of the story itself.

e: I'd also have to point out that the mental torture scene with Poe is incredibly intense, and it doesn't surprise me that Lucas didn't include such a thing in a series which is meant to be relatively light and child-friendly. In terms of sheer psychological impact, I'd put it on par with Anakin burning up on that lava bank (which was sanitized as much as it could possibly be without betraying the story that had to be told), even though the former is just a mid-movie villain-building event in the first movie structurally analogous to Vader preparing to torture Leia offscreen, while the latter is the trilogy-capping climax which everything has been slowly building up to and preparing you for. It's not surprising that TFA was rated PG-13. For the first movie in a Star Wars trilogy, it was very dark.

 

Force users are very much like athletes. Some are more well rounded and good in multiple situations while others, like field goal kickers or short relievers in baseball have a very specific skill set. Over time we have seen this develop in ST in regard to the Force.

Darth Maul focused his Force abilities into physical combat as he enjoyed overwhelming his opponent with power and speed while Yoda was much more focused on meditation skills.

his can be seen across all of the films and books with each Force user being more adept in certain areas than others.