Did the Jedi have to change after ROTS?

This question has been answered in parts on many other threads, but I've never actually heard it addressed this way. There's a lot of disagreement about Yoda, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and who was right and when were they right. Well, I think a whole thread should be devoted to it. In the PT Qui-Gon was at odds with the Jedi Council and continued to plead with them for various changes: training Anakin, "the chosen one" being Anakin, the "living" force, etc. During the PT Obi-Wan is at odds with Qui-Gon on some of these issues, namely the "living" force or is he? Obi-Wan and Yoda certainly seem all knowing in the Classic Trilogy (with Yoda being more all-knowing than Obi-Wan), but are they (or just Yoda) in the Prequel Trilogy? Yoda warns Anakin of his feelings several times during the PT, but that did not stop Anakin. Were they the right things to say? What should a Jedi be? What are they core assets of a Jedi? So as you can see many, many questions to get us started.

 

I'll start off quickly as I have to go. In short, yes I think the Jedi did have to change after ROTS. In ROTS Yoda says, "I have failed." That tells me that something has to change in order to succed. I don't think he failed physically (he gave up against Palpatine) he failed in other ways and he knew he couldn't fix those at that stage. Also in ROTS he tells Obi-Wan "I have more training for you. Master Qui-Gon has learned the secrets to the Netherworld." New training! Again changes had to be made. But what were they doing wrong? Well, I believe the saga has alot to do with power, obviously. And the message is clear, power corrupts. Certainly to Palpatine and I think to the Jedi. These people were the armies of the galaxy for thousands of years. How can a group of people who have power for that long not falter in a Star Wars story. I mean it has to be there in this story. Power did corrupt the Jedi. They failed to listen to dissenters: Dooku, Syfo Dias, etc. They didn't see Anakin before he was too old. They disagreed with Qui-Gon. They were too rigid and didn't change their views as time went by (one reason the Constitution works). Many other things. Anyways, I have much more to say, but most go.

 

They had to institute some slight reforms, though for the most part they remained the same. Their underlying beliefs all seem to remain unchanged, but they by necessity end up less insular given that their ivory tower has been burned by the Sith.

 

I think their complacency was shaken up when a real crisis upstirred the order, so yes I believe some reforms had to be instituted. Its either the lines get blurred or the Jedi dont give much of a fight and go extinct.

We notice maces anger when attempting to kill palpatine, but imo he was 100% right about what would happen if he lived.

 

I didn't take it as Mace being angry, but rather determined.

 

Well, I haven't much of the EU, but I would certainly hope stealing babies from their mothers is a practice that ended with the old school. I take it since Luke, Leia/Han all had children that the Luke trained Jedi were able to love, marry and have kids.

The downfall of the Jedi was their inability to embrace their humanity and the core of what it is to be human (or whatever creature.) The Jedi rejected nature in favor of their Jedi religion. To be human was to be base. They elevated themselves to the point of arrogance and detached themselves to the point of not caring. As Padme told Anakin after he slayed the raiders, "to be angry is to be human." The Jedi forsake their emotions and human bonds. Those bonds and emotions are important and vital to human relationships. Instead of embracing such bonds and emotions, they rejected them out of fear they would be controlled by them instead of being in control of them. But as we see later with Luke is that connectedness with the force is what made the Jedi strong--not their control over it. Luke's empathy and unconditional love for his father is what turned Anakin back not Luke's lightsaber skills or force wielding abilities.

Yeah, this paragraph is disjointed because I am tired. Will fix tomorrow.

 

The old Jedi never stole children. They only took orphans and children who were given to them by their parents.

 

chibangi: Luke's empathy and unconditional love for his father is what turned Anakin back not Luke's lightsaber skills or force wielding abilities.


That's not what I got out of ROTJ. I saw a Knight who lambasted Vader and a dad who said "hell, I'm sick of this Palps "used car salesman" and did right by the Force ....


Call it semantics ... but that unconditional love B* has gotta go .... Vader had intentions on killing Luke, vice versa on DS2 ...


Let's get real people. Nuff of the nonsense.

EDIT - I know somewhere there's a Mod that's gonna be shaking his head in agreement ... so freakin step in before I get criticized by Stryphe or whoever ---- for telling it like it was back in the day.

 

they started showing not telling.

 

Disjointed? Au contraire, it says almost verbatim what I myself would have contributed to this thread, chibiangi, had you not said it first!

BigBoy29, the "unconditional love" reading is far from nonsense. I'm not criticising you, but I am strongly disagreeing with you. The point of ROTJ's climax is that Vader gives up his evil Sith self, which has domniated the OT storyline until now, and returns to the compassionate Jedi he once was. He turns away from hate and embraces love for his son.

 

The "unconditional love" wasn't nonsense, but the manner in which they tried to teach it to Anakin (and failed) was severely lacking. It might work for a kid who's grown up in the temple and has no relationships outside, but for any other person it was far to rigid, and too much taught as a dogma you have to believe in, rather than taught how to actually live it - especially for a kid like Anakin. They needed to find a method of living and teaching their philosophy that's workable for people who don't grow up and live their entire life in a temple, but who have family and a place other than being a Jedi in society.

 

No, they literally did not run around stealing children. However, you don't think there would have been a lot of pressure for parents to turn their children to the Jedi should they have shown up? I am talking strictly about the movies where we see the child of a slave being freed and taken from his mother under the assumption he will have a better life, training, etc. He was removed from a loving mother in the hopes he would have a better life. What other choice did she have? I am sure he wasn't the only one.


It all goes back to the idea that the Jedi thought they were above it all. If they could train small children and indoctrinate them into the Jedi dogma, then they would be able have better control over them and the force. I think if anything, the series shows that the human experience triumphs over dogma with Luke being the example of this. He was the closest to the force because he has the purest experience with it.



As for the unconditional love...Yes, Vader fully intended to kill Luke. But in those last moments when the Emperor was frying Luke, we get the cuts back and forth between the two and Vader picks up the Emperor and tosses him down the chute. The next we see is Vader telling Luke there was good in him. We also know that Luke could feel the conflict within Vader before they dueled. I do believe that we are to conclude that in that very moment, something triggered in Vader and he saw his son, the son he lost everything for, about to die. I believe that we, the viewers, are to interpret this as him regaining his compassion (and by Anakin's own defitition of compassion: unconditional love.)

 

Great stuff chibiangi. You said what I was about to get to. Humanity was lacking in the Jedi Order before the Republic. I think it interesting that the classic trilogy is all about family and friends. Does the Prequel Trilogy do that. In TPM, Anakin was becoming "friendly" with Padme, loved Jar-Jar, really loved his mom and felt Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were his "dad's." But in AOTC he only briefly gets to be with Jar-Jar, has bonded with Obi-Wan and has spent time getting to know Padme. I forgot to mention R2 and C-3PO, whom he also is friends with. In ROTS he looses his friendship with Obi-Wan, they're split apart and fighting separate battles. He's been gone a long time from Padme and leaves her again throughout the saga. Their only connection is when they're miles away as Padme feels Anakin's anger and pain, but he hears nothing (the Jedi Temple raid). Then he looses R2 and C-3PO who abandon him. His only friend throughout the PT is Palpatine and he immediately gets away from him after ROTS, hiding on his throne.

Now in Episode IV, V and VI its all about keeping your family and friends close. Luke may leave his aunt and uncle, but he didn't intend to leave the planet. Only by change (or destiny) did he actually leave Tatooine. He told Kenobi that he had to stay. He couldn't abandon the people he loved and who took care of him. Here, Obi-Wan still hasn't learned that the Jedi need their families. He, without hesitation, insists that Luke must go with him. He can only think of society as a whole (to save them) and not by one person. He doesn't realize that by loving one another, you love all. To get back to the point, Luke regrettably leaves Tatooine only because there's nothing left, but takes with him Obi-Wan and the two droids. After an auspicious start he befriends Chewie and Han and then finds Leia on the Death Star. Throughout the entire trilogy he never abandons any of those people and they never die. I think that's why Lucas was adamant that Harrison Ford be in the third movie because, however unrealistic that everyone survives all these great battles, he made a point that Luke's love for them would save. You can't really do that only metaphorically in a movie made for all ages.

Also, after learning that Vader was he real father, Luke never turned on his dad. He wouldn't forget his principles of honesty, love and forgiveness (which Vader wanted him to do), but he also wouldn't forget that Vader was his blood and that there was still good in him. He didn't know that Vader would save him (similar to Jesus asking God "why have you forsaken me" [I don't like to use Christian references, but its a reference that most people quickly understand]). However, he puts his faith in him and his principles and of course he won. Palpatine, who offered no love or friendship lost.

Additionally in the CT, Yoda and Kenobi both warn Luke not to go rescue his friends. That he should stay with them (the Jedi) and forget his family and friends because they are just individuals, not the whole galaxy. But Luke couldn't live with himself if he just abandoned them and went to go help them. Then they Kenobi says, "That boy was are last hope." They both concede that he has failed to become a Jedi by saying that. When Luke does return in to Dagobah in ROTJ Yoda says, "Already learned, that which you need to." But he didn't teach him anything else. Yoda understood that Luke was wiser than him and knew that there was nothing else he could teach him.

Again, I have more to say, but these are long posts and I'm out of time. Great discussion so far.

 

And Anakin did have a better life as a Jedi. It was only because he was unable to learn control and overcome his fear that he fell. Yoda gave him the advice he needed, Anakin simply refused to listen.

Anakin however has a far more instinctive connection to it than Luke ever does. When Luke was 9 he was a normal child not a podracing wizard. Luke only connects to it when the Jedi teach him how.

 

Anakin would have the closest connection since he was formed by midocholorians, lol. He kind of IS the force in human form. But I believe the Jedi did have to change after ROTS. They had fallen off track and it was time to put away some of the old laws and move forward. Hanging on to rules and regulations held them back, imo, because the world around them evolved, the force evolved with it and they too needed to evolve. It would make them stronger, more cohesive and better able to serve their role in the galaxy. They didn't have to be wiped out to change, but since it happened, it allowed for that change to occur as they had to start basically from scratch.

 

see, there's the difference between showing and telling. yoda of old told, yoda of new showed.

now i guess what it comes down to is how to 'show' love rather than tell it, right? (watch how luke has the show bit down to a tee, he says it once and then lives it. beautiful)

 

It's not just that he didn't *show* him, he didn't tell him *how to*, either. He just told him what to do, but not how to do it, and didn't give him the necessary "tools" either. Like standing at the shore of a river and telling Anakin, "get to the other side", without telling or showing him how to swim, or where to get a boat or material to build a bridge.

 

yes.

because we are dealing with spiritual teaching here tho, the matter wouldn't be resolved by telling him how to swim etc, it'd be more of a matter of swimming with him, if you know what i mean. witnessing, in therapeutic lingo.

if yoda understood why it doesn't occur to anakin that he might want to cross the stream etc, we'd be closer to the actual problem than to merely manipulate him into crossing anyway.

yoda is too absorbed with 'fixing' the problem rather than understanding why it occurs in the first place or why anyone would create it.

something like that.

 

Is this a Ghostbuster's Force lightning innuendo? If so, I like where you are going with the "don't cross the streams" analogy.

 

True, but there was little way for Yoda to show when Anakin was around given that he didn't have the Dark Side cave or anything else to illustrate his point. Anakin also is a fully-trained Jedi Knight not a Padawan or whatever Luke is. He should know how to let go by that point. There's also that unlike with Luke, Yoda's not Anakin's master. If any Jedi was in a position to 'show' Anakin how to be a Jedi, it was Obi-Wan.

Kenobi did this by example and Anakin did learn his lessons. He just chose not to follow them. "I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more, but I know I shouldn't."

 

A master like Yoda should surely be able to overcome obstacles like having to find an equivalent or substitute for a dark cave. Masters of spiritual teachings in our world have no difficulties finding it. In all corners of the globus, for instance, there are offers for dark room retreats.

That's the problem. Anakin was never trained like any other Padawan. The first 10 years of his training were missing. He never experienced Yoda's teachings, and accordingly, his subsequent teachings with Obi-Wan should've been modified from the ordinary procedure to account for that. Unfortunately, Obi-Wan had just become a knight himself and thus had no experience whatsoever with teaching any student, let alone with adjusting the teachings for a student who'd missed the first 10 teaching years. The council, and especially Yoda, should have supervised the education a lot more closely - ideally, Obi-Wan and Yoda should have cooperated to educate Anakin, to make up for the 10 years of education they missed. Instead, Obi-Wan obviously was left on his own, and even when he expressed his concerns to the council in AOTC, indicating that he *felt* something was off track, he was merely given the answer that they had "full confidence in him".

Kenobi did this by making himself the example. This is simply not enough, since not only is everyone different and has to overcome different difficulties, but - again - Anakin was lacking the first ten years of teaching. Obi-Wan's example was about as useful for Anakin, as if a kid is taught swimming by being shown a video recording of some olympic competition, starring Mark Spitz.

 

True enough.

And as we see, they were right to have faith in him. Anakin falls, but it's simply because Anakin consciously chose not to follow his teachings. He knew what he was doing was wrong, but did it anyway. More Jedi training would have helped that, but as Dooku shows even a fully trained Jedi Master who chooses to betray the Jedi's teachings can end up a Sith. The problem was Anakin wasn't willing to accept the hard truth that if Padme was supposed to die, there was nothing he could do about it.

And the analogy is flawed. Anakin would be the child prodigy who watches that video and against all odds actually manages to learn how to swim correctly. Anakin knew exactly what he was doing, but chose his wife over the galaxy even though he knew it was wrong.

 

I beg to differ. I'd argue that almost all of us at times do things that we know are wrong. Because we are driven by fear, anger, jealousy, and other kinds of interfering emotions. Most extreme examples are of course people who suffer from phobia, or alcoholism. You can tell an alcoholic a million times that what he's doing is wrong, and he's well aware of it, yet this doesn't help him the least bit. For a less extreme case, people who are overly jealous also know what they're doing is wrong. Yet telling him "stop being jealous" doesn't help them the least bit - unless they are given advice *how* to overcome their jealousy. Likewise, simply telling Anakin "let go of your fear" doesn't help him the least bit. I'd doubt he wouldn't have gladly done so if that were so easy, since living in a state of constant fear isn't all that pleasant.

See above. Knowing what's wrong doesn't mean one is able to do it right, even if one is told *what* to do. What matters is knowing *how* to overcome his fears, and getting help to accomplish it.

I don't blame Anakin for not being able to let go of his fear of losing Padme - for me, the inaedequacies of the Jedi training play a major part in this. I blame him for something quite different, namely for his unwillingness to be honest with Obi-Wan and the rest of the Jedi, and to be willing to actually face the choice between Padme and the Order, if the Order indeed insists that the relationship must cease. He wanted to have his cake and eat it - that's his major flaw in my opinion. He wasn't willing to bear the burden of actually making a choice, to live with the consequences and accept his responsibilities.

 

True, though Anakin could have simply not done anything about it. It would have been hard, but Anakin could have simply done his duty and killed Palpatine or let Mace do it. He would still be in agony over Padme, but he wouldn't have ended up a Sith Lord. It wouldn't have been the best solution, but it would have worked. I don't blame Anakin for feeling the impulse to save his wife, but for his willingness to plunge the galaxy into darkness for to save her(even though she didn't want to be.)

Oh, I agree with all of that other than the Jedi have a role in his inability to accept loss. We see that in TPM long before he was trained by the Jedi. He simply was unwilling to deal with it and the Jedi couldn't force him.

 

Yeah. The Jedi before the whole Ruusan conflict were pretty much "normal". They had families, and younglings either they were born into the order, or parents willingly volunteered their children for it as well. They were able to show emotion.