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PT Did the Jedi look for Sidious before Geonosis?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by The One Above All, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. The One Above All

    The One Above All Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Apr 11, 2017
    It seems that up until Dooku revealed Sidious' existence to Obi-Wan, when the war began, that the Jedi Council never took any steps to finding the identity of the second sith in the 10 years following Naboo. They had an obvious lead in Gunray, who they could have offered to take into protective custody, given how terrified of Sidious he was. Could it be because they thought Maul was the Master, that his apprentice would pose no threat on his/her own and that were safe?

    Edit: That last word was meant to be Geonosis. Accidentally pressed the enter key before I was ready. If anyone knows how to edit titles, could they finish it please. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    I assume they questioned Gunray but Gunray was too afraid of Sidious to mention his involvement to the Jedi.
     
  3. Dannik Jerriko

    Dannik Jerriko Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Sep 12, 2017
    Sidious would have been well aware of the weak links in his organization. Sidious would have ensured that Gunray either had too much to lose by talking to the Jedi or was too afraid of potential repercussions. Snitches get stitches:p.

    I think that the Jedi would have made serious efforts in the interim period to trace the identity of the Sith, but with no success. I don't think that the Jedi would have been complacent about the Sith threat, they simply couldn't establish a solid line of enquiry.
     
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  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    The Jedi were aware that there was a missing Sith as stated at the end of TPM. But the Republic is a large galaxy and the Unknown Regions are even larger. If the Empire had trouble finding the Rebel base, then the Jedi having trouble finding Sidious isn't that far fetched.
     
  5. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Nothing in AOTC implies that they have been.
     
  6. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Because it's self-evidently nonsensical to assume that they haven't.
     
  7. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Apr 25, 2004
    You know, now that I think about it, why didn't the Jedi use the Force to probe Gunray's mind or compel him to talk...the way they did with Cad Bane? Yeah sure, it's probably a borderline dark side thing to do, but finding Sidious probably warrants doing so.

    Anyway, in Labyrinth of Evil, I think it was mentioned that the Jedi had tried to investigate Sidious's involvement in the Naboo crisis but at some point the trail went cold.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  8. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Well, according to Dooku's reveal in AOTC they didn't know about his name or his movements.
     
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  9. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    They say in the episode that forcing someone's brain open like that is incredibly dangerous and carries a risk of destroying the subject's mind. I suppose they weren't willing to do that to Gunray just based on the off chance he might know something substantial, but when the lives of children were in immediate danger they felt they had no choice.

    It's a very dark thing, regardless. I'm not sure it reflects well on the Jedi that they resorted to it with Bane.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  10. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Doesn't mean they didn't look for him.
     
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  11. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 10, 2005
    They seem to have gotten Maul's name out of the Neimoidians, at least (TCW). Not that that would be of any use.
     
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  12. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2009
    The Jedi confirmed him to be a Sith in TPM, so either the Neimoidians, Maul's ship or something else gave away his identity.
     
  13. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Qui-Gon's identification of him and Obi-Wan's testimony of the duel obviously confirmed him to be a Sith. In the old EU they also sensed the overwhelming darkness in Maul's ship. It certainly wasn't an AI saying "Good morning Darth Maul" when they entered.
     
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    They don't have to talk about looking for Sidious, to have been trying to find him for ten years.

    Well, not quite. Dooku tells Obi-wan that the Sith Lord is named Darth Sidious, but that doesn't mean that the Jedi didn't already know that from them. The film is vague about when Dooku left and if the Council was or wasn't aware of that detail. Obi-wan never indicates if he had heard the name Darth Sidious or not, and later on he never expresses that this was a first time hearing the name. But as to his goals, not even Nute knew what it was he was hoping to gain beyond having the treaty signed.

    If the Jedi didn't know Sidious's name, it was most likely because Dooku got to Nute and Rune, before the Jedi could fully interrogate them and made sure that they stayed silent.

    That's why Vader has trouble gleaning information from Leia about the Death Star plans and why Ben isn't able to find out much from Rey and she was able to turn it around on him.
     
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  15. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    I mean, I think it's pretty simple. Obviously Maul was working with the Neimoidians, Nute can't deny that. So the Jedi put the pressure on Nute, and he tells them that they were working with this dude named Darth Maul but they don't know who he was or if he was working with anyone else. That's all they know, they swear!
     
  16. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    In a film yes, the audience needs a cue to inform us of something that happened off screen. Otherwise it is just conjecture.

    The scene is quite clear, Obi-Wan has never heard of this Darth Sidious or Darth Tyranus. He is shocked and thinks the story impossible.
     
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  17. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Not if it's something as blindingly obvious as, "There's a loose Sith Lord or two out there bent on annihilating the Jedi and toppling the Republic; they've probably been looking into it."
     
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  18. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    But at the end of the movie Obi-Wan names him as if they had heard the name before, like it was a given.

    "What do you make of Count Dooku's claim that Sidious is controlling the Senate..."
     
  19. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Nothing is obvious about it. The obvious thing to do would have been to send several members of the Jedi Council to apprehend Maul. So assuming the characters of the film operate on real-world common sense is incorrect.
    I interpreted that scene as Obi-Wan/Windu/Yoda having a conversation AFTER Obi-Wan gave an official briefing to the entire Council. As you can see him and Windu are standing nonchalantly by the window and none of the other Council members as present. They have already heard the full account so he doesn't have to go over it all over again. This is the only logical explanation since otherwise he would be talking to them as if they were in the room when him and Dooku were talking.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  20. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    Didn't Qui-Gon already say on the Council that he is a Sith?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  21. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    He assumed so. But he had no de facto evidence. At the end of the movie is where it's confirmed to the Jedi that Maul was indeed a Sith.
     
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  22. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    What was the evidence? The literally only difference was that Qui-Gon was dead. Maul's body and lightsaber were gone. Now instead of listening to a Jedi Master they were listening to the testimony of a padawan.
     
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  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Two Jedi were sufficient to deal with Maul, since there was no proof he was a Sith, but could have been a Snoke or a Ventress.

    Whether they knew his name was Sidious before or afterwards is irrelevant. It is a large galaxy. If two Jedi can hide from the Sith for twenty years and the Sith could hide for a thousand years, then nothing is illogical about it.

    Why is Obi-wan's testimony no good? Also, part of Maul's Lightsaber was left behind as it was cut in two and he dropped it on the floor. Also, there was Anakin's testimony as he saw the beginning of the duel and saw Maul's sabers and skills with the Force.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
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  24. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    If your goal was for a Jedi to die, yes. If you wanted to capture him without casualties, no.

    According to the film they learned it when Obi-Wan briefed them.

    I don't know, I guess the real question is: why was Qui-Gon's testimony no good?
     
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  25. firesaber

    firesaber Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 5, 2006
    To the OP's question did they assume Maul was the master, at the end of TPM this is one of the things discussed by Mace Windu and Yoda. Part of what may have barred the council from listening to Qui-Gon about the Sith may have been their hubris as well as Qui-Gon's philosophies and actions up to that point. By the conclusion of TPM they cannot ignore it anymore.
    As to whether they were looking for the "other Sith" it is a safe presumption that they were but apparently were looking for Sith in all the wrong places.
    Big galaxy and all that and it wasn't like Sidious was putting up wild wacky crazy inflatable arm men announcing his moves like Google Pins. While they were looking one way, Tyrannus popped up from the other direction and they missed that as well.
     
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