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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Did the Jedi look for Sidious before Geonosis?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by The One Above All, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. Torib

    Torib Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2016
    Presumably the Sith have a well-developed body of teachings, fighting styles, and methods of using the force that differentiate them from the run-of-the-mill bad guy. And it was either Maul's fighting style or his presence in the force that made Qui Gon believe he was dealing with a Sith, specifically. Even if there were no material evidence (cameras, ship, lightsaber), it is perfectly believable that after the much longer fight on Naboo, that the Jedi are able to conclude that Maul was indeed a Sith based on Obi-Wan's accounting of his fighting style and force abilities. It's like if someone attacked you randomly in the street and you defended yourself for a handful of seconds before running away, it's possible you might be able to guess whether he had been trained in Karate or Boxing or whatever, but you probably wouldn't be entirely certain. But if you had the opportunity to spar with them over the course of ten minutes or more, you would probably be able to identify their fighting style.
     
  2. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Since Qui-Gon / Obi-Wan are the first Jedi to fight a Sith in a thousand years; I can't say that makes sense. It's not like Maul even explicitly uses any dark side powers; from what I see he basically just uses Force push. The only real difference is that now he utilizes his double blades - but even that is a poor indicator to be like "oh yeah then he's def a Sith."
     
  3. Torib

    Torib Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2016
    Wait, are you arguing that Maul isn't using the dark side of the force during that fight?

    The Jedi clearly have some knowledge of the Sith of the past: Yoda knows about the rule of two, for example. Not much of a stretch to think that Maul's fighting style includes identifiable Sith techniques. Just like you could tell the difference fighting someone trained in Kung Fu versus Karate.
     
  4. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    The only mention of that is when Qui-Gon told the Council that Maul was well trained in the Jedi arts and that he must be a Sith Lord! Wtf would have changed, and what would a padawan (Obi-Wan) recognize that could be more accurate than what a Jedi Master already theorized?

    I'm sure Maul is drawing his energy from the dark side; what I am saying is he didn't use Force lightning, Dun Moch or any other Sith-specific powers.
     
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The cameras would be off in the throne room, but not in the hangar.

    It is what they are thinking.

    No, the other Jedi were killed. Mace was the only one who was winning. Palpatine was the one who was winning until he lost his saber due to a lucky kick to the face.

    Which wasn't enough in their estimation to believe it was a Sith Lord. That's why Ki-Adi and Mace are incredulous and skeptical.

    The Force isn't enough to know where and when someone is going to be somewhere.

    Luke surrendered in order to get close to Vader, which was acceptable.

    A dead Jedi Master who was killed by a Force wielding, Lightsaber carrying warrior. Only a Sith Lord could kill a Jedi Master by using the Force and a Lightsaber and nearly kill a Padawan the same way.
     
  6. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Only a sith deals in absolutes. Any strong enough force user who had training and was able to weild a lightsaber could kill a Jedi.
     
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Then why didn't Ventress or Savage? They were strong and well trained, but couldn't get the job done. The Inquisitors fell to the Jedi and Maul. When it comes to Maul, at the outset, a fight that lasts maybe two minutes isn't enough to evaluate his abilities. And Qui-gon is only guessing because he possibly found the Chosen One, who is destined to destroy the Sith.
     
  8. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Do you ever get tired of making things up? There is no mention of any cameras.
    Of course. Only you know the characters are thinking.:rolleyes:

    So the Jedi were winning until the Sith had more people.

    Which was a poor decision. Because after they ignored the fact that he barely killed Qui-Gon, he actually killed him.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    ...huh?? Are we watching the same movies?

    So you admit you're wrong, Yoda never told Luke to kill the Emperor. This is the start of your redemption.

    Again, Qui-Gon already alerted them he was attacked and almost killed by this warrior. They didn't care then. The only thing that has changed is that he is now actually dead. It's like telling your car dealership that you got into a fender bender and your airbags don't work. And instead of fixing it they just say "well maybe you don't need airbags. Go get into another crash and get to the bottom of this mystery." Then you get in another crash and die, and they decide that "Wow so he did need airbags."
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I wasn't making that up. Someone else brought it up as speculation.

    No, the Jedi were losing until Mace kicked Palpatine in the face and ended the fight. Three dead Jedi is not winning.

    They didn't ignore anything. They took him serious enough to believe that two Jedi were capable of dealing with him and they were.

    The one where Vader needed a tracking device on the Falcon, because the Force couldn't tell him where the Rebel base was. Or the one where Vader has to rely on Boba Fett to find the Falcon. Or the one where Vader couldn't find Luke after a year. Or Vader needed dozens of probe droids in order to have a clue as to where to find Luke.

    That's not the same thing as Luke choosing to surrender himself in order to get to Vader. You're shifting goalposts a bit. Whether Luke was sent to kill Vader or not, he wasn't going to fight his way to him.

    No, it means that Qui-gon was by himself and now he will have Obi-wan with him. Now they're expecting him when before, they weren't. Even Qui-gon admitted that he was surprised by Maul's attack. The Jedi did care, but they believed that the two of them were enough. Just as they believed that Obi-wan and Anakin were enough against Dooku, despite not being able to defeat him before. Just as they believe Luke is enough to face two Sith Lords. Just as Mace believed four Masters were enough to face Palpatine.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  10. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    This is an interesting topic with the ST now out. Would QGJ or OB1 identify Snoke/Ren as a Sith? Why or why not?

    The Sith are more a cult of the Darkside, so sensing the strength of the darkside wouldn't be enough.
     
  11. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    There was no mention of cameras in the film.

    You're the same person who said two Jedi was enough to defeat Maul? That Qui-GOn dying doesn't matter because Obi-Wan won? So I don't get it; is Jedi dying to defeat an opponent good or bad?

    So 4 Jedi were enough to defeat Palpatine.

    So I disproved you're ridiculous claim that the Force can't tell you where and when people are, and you're answering with non-sequiturs? CLASSY!=D=

    You're changing the subject. You said "they told him to kill Vader and the Emperor." I corrected you in stating "they" never did that. That's it. I never mentioned Luke intentions, at all.

    I'm not questioning their belief. It was a bad decision. I could believe that jumping off my roof is a good idea; that doesn't make it smart or right. Objectively looking at the facts and acting based on that is what's smartest. BTW Sending a full fledge Jedi Knight (possibly the strongest ever) in Anakin and a Jedi Master in Obi-Wan to face a Sith Lord seems a pretty decent gesture. Sending a single Jedi Master who needs to protect a queen, a small boy and his own padawan ISN'T.
     
  12. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Savage killed a Jedi Master and a Jedi Padawan in a matter of 19 seconds actually
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Actually, there are cameras in the complex since they know about the assault on Theed.

    Qui-gon's death is neither good, nor bad. It just is. What matters is that there is now proof that the Sith are back and at least one of them has been dealt with. What troubles the Jedi Council more is that they don't know who the other Sith Lord is, much less where he is at.

    No, because they were killed. It wouldn't have mattered if fifteen went, they would all die. TLJ spoiler,
    Rey and Snoke were enough to take out Snoke and his guards.


    Those aren't non-sequiturs. I just showed that the Force cannot tell a Force user where everyone is at, at all times. Hell, even Motti mocked Vader for that outright.

    You did when you talked about his surrendering.

    Sending two Jedi who have poor track record of fighting a Sith Lord in battle is not a decent gesture, by your own standards. The bottom line as shown in eight films across the main saga is that numbers don't mean ****. Two, four or a dozen. They can all be taken out by very skilled warriors, be it one or two.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
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  14. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    The assault on Theed is going on..outside.

    Loss of a Jedi is bad. Qui-Gon was highly trained and knowledgeable. That's one less Jedi protecting the galaxy.

    But you said 2 Jedi were enough to defeat Maul. One was killed. So which is it?

    No you didn't. Also that wasn't the original argument. In post 55 you originally said:
    Now, because I proved you wrong, you're switching it to "always." Sorry, that was never mention and isn't relevant.
    All I have to do is give one example of someone knowing WHERE and WHEN someone is to disprove you. I gave 3.

    This comment is comical. Obi-Wan is the only living Jedi who has slain a Sith Lord. He stood a better chance than 99% of Jedi.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    And it will come inside. Security cameras can pinpoint where.

    There's dozens more ready to replace him.

    Only because Maul got sloppy and paid for it. Palpatine was not sloppy.

    And I gave you four examples where it isn't enough and other means are required.

    And lost to Dooku on Geonosis, and failed to capture him on Oba-diah and Naboo. He gets punked out on the Invisible Hand. That's some track record.
     
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  16. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    It's also probably not a stretch to believe that invading Corporate tyrants discussing super secret plans with the most diabolical force of evil in the galaxy might turn those cameras off.

    What does that have to do with his death being bad?

    So 4 Jedi were enough to kill Palpatine?

    Now, because I proved you wrong, you're switching it to "always." Sorry, that was never mention and isn't relevant.
    All I have to do is give one example of someone knowing WHERE and WHEN someone is to disprove you. I gave 3.

    Sending a full fledge Jedi Knight (possibly the strongest ever) in Anakin and a Jedi Master in Obi-Wan to face a Sith Lord seems a pretty decent gesture. Sending a single Jedi Master who needs to protect a queen, a small boy and his own padawan ISN'T.
     
  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Only in the throne room or a main hallway. Not in the hangar area.

    Because there are more Jedi out there. You complain about one less Jedi in the universe, I point out there's dozens more to replace him. As it is, Jedi are not immortal. They'll die either by Lightsaber or by fire from an enemy like the Battle Droids or from a Bounty Hunter like Jango Fett and Cad Bane. Qui-gon and Obi-wan could have been killed aboard the Federation ship, or Qui-gon could have been killed by Maul on Tatooine. The number of Jedi sent won't change that. If this is their destiny to die this way, then it is.

    No, because no matter how many went, none of them were powerful enough to kill him. That's why you have to be either Yoda and Mace to be able to hang with him, or in Anakin's case, be strong enough to kill him.

    And I have you examples as well. Are we going to keep going in circles about this?

    And yet, in the end, that Padawan took out a Sith. So it was enough.
     
  18. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    Labrynth of Evil should be put on a movie screen. It outlines a potentially good plot of this thread's title.
     
  19. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Not to derail this thread but Savage Opress was a Sith Lord. The Apprentice can defy the Rule of Two and become a Master himself. He just never stays that way for long because to do so is to effectively issue a direct challenge to his former Sith Master. A challenge that never goes unanswered.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  20. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Not anywhere. Which is why it is never mentioned.
    The goal of the Jedi is to exist as an organization. Obviously from your perspective no ones life matters okay. Cool for you. In the film, the Jedi are trying to maintain their Order the death of Jedi is bad. Thus why Obi-Wan cries when Qui-Gon dies. Why Anakin wants Dooku to pay for the deaths of Jedi. Why Yoda is heart-broken at the deaths of padawans.

    Mace Windu was. Until Anakin turned the Sith made it a 2v1.

    There is no circle. You claimed something doesn't exist. I showed you examples that it does exist. It's over.

    Wait, I thought:

    But now he is enough? Which is it?
     
  21. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Yep that’s correct. Maul refers to him and Savage as “the true lords of the Sith”
     
  22. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 13, 2014
    This is a great question. I certainly hope they did. In retrospect it should have been their #1 priority. I'm not sure how dangerous a situation they thought this was or how widespread this information was in the Jedi Order.

    There is video surveillance outside the palace on Naboo. It's not much of a stretch for it to also be in the hanger.

    [​IMG]


    It's entirely possible the Jedi were never able to question Nute Gunray - either due to how the regular laws of the galaxy work, unknown interference from Darth Sidious, or the Trade Federation using money and having the best lawyers pull strings and keep their people and in turn their organization out of trouble. We know that after multiple trials Nute Gunray and the Trade Federation were never convicted of anything for their takeover of Naboo. And at that point before the Clone Wars, the Jedi probably wouldn't have bent any rules by questioning someone illegally, even if it was getting information about the Sith.

    I think Qui-Gon is knowledgable enough about the Force and has met enough different types of Force users who aren't Jedi, that he instantly recognized something different and far more dangerous about Darth Maul. From historical accounts he realized it must be a Sith Lord. Doubly strange is Qui-Gon just found a child he thinks is the chosen one. For the Jedi it's like Biblical Lure has sudden come to life.

    I think enough happened on Naboo to provide conclusive evidence for the other Jedi. That could be video or holo recordings of the hanger, the witnesses from the Queen's security Force, even R2-D2 saw Darth Maul. Also what Obi-Wan felt during the duel through the Force about Darth Maul could be enough.

    My guess is the trail to Darth Sidious went cold almost immediately. Even if Nute Gunray talked he didn't know enough to help the Jedi. The Neimodians probably never met Darth Sidious in person. The most they had was the Star Wars equivalent of a phone number. There are probably no recordings of their conversations or any other evidence. Did the Jedi recover Darth Maul's Ship, or did that fly away on it's own? Did they try to find his body?
     
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  23. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    At one point or another Sidious got Maul’s ship back.
     
  24. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Who said anything about discussing Sith plans? I'm saying simply being recorded. And are you assuming that he expected Amidala to retake the palace or him to die at the Jedi's hand? If not, why would he care if he was recorded or not?
     
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  25. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    So that he could move in secrecy. This is fun, do you have any other questions?