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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Did the Jedi look for Sidious before Geonosis?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by The One Above All, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Uh, Palpatine killed Savage and tells Maul...

    SIDIOUS: "Remember, the first and only reality of the Sith, there can only be two. And you are no longer my apprentice. You have been replaced."

    He was intending to challenge Palpatine and Dooku, but the former found out about him and went after him. But that whole time, he was no longer a Sith.

    It's not mentioned because it isn't relevant to the plot like it is in ROTS, where it was never mentioned that the Temple had cameras in the previous films.

    No, the goal of the Jedi Order is to maintain peace and justice in the Republic. That means that there is always a possibility of dying to protect the Republic. Obi-wan cries when Qui-gon dies in his arms because he lost a father figure, which he then lets go of and moves on. Anakin is an emotional Padawan who had just lost his mother a couple of days ago and is afraid of something happening to the woman that he loves. He wants revenge not for the death of the Jedi, but because he's in a very foul mood. Yoda is said to see the Younglings are dead because he knows who killed them and why.

    The Jedi aren't incapable of feeling loss. But they don't dwell on that loss. They do not see a Jedi dying as Qui-gon did, to be a huge blow to the Order.

    Mace had already lost the battle when he entered Palpatine's office, with the intent of overthrowing Palpatine. He already lost the war went they went to Geonosis. All that was left was the formality of dying.

    He was enough against a Sith who choose to be sloppy. He wasn't against a more seasoned warrior, who wasn't so sloppy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  2. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Yes, but before that Sidious mentions that Maul and Savage has become rivals
     
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  3. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Maul is a Sith Lord, and he took on Savage as his Sith apprentice.

    There aren't supposed to be more than two, but Maul's unexpected survival threw a wrench into the system.
     
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  4. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Pretty much this. Sidious also says something to that effect.
     
  5. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Correct. So pretending that the Jedi knew Maul was a Sith because of secret camera recordings, is false.

    I didn't say that. It's a strawman argument. I said the death of a Jedi is bad in the eyes of other Jedi. Period.

    Ah, dodging my clear, concrete point with cryptic pseudo-logic. How classy!=D=

    He defeated 2/3 Sith he fought. So Sith were his specialty. He was more than qualified to face Dooku. The Council's decision to send him against Maul when he was a padawan however, was questionable at best.


     
  6. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    Other than squeezing the Trade Federation for answers (which would probably only give them what Dooku gave OB1), were there really any breadcrumbs to find?
     
  7. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    According to @darth-sinister and @Alexrd there were secret tapes in the palace that neither the TF or the Sith themselves were able to turn off. The tapes show all the conversations the TF had with Sidious thus exposing why Maul was indeed a Sith. Ignore the fact that there is no mention of these tapes in the film; and that if these tapes did exist the Jedi would also have already confirmed that Maul is the apprentice and he has a master named Darth Sidious. Yeah, just ignore that part.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  8. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    So much secrecy that he revealed himself to everybody on the hangar.

    False. What I said was:

    And:

    To which you replied:

    So much secrecy that he revealed himself to everybody on the hangar.

    Again, you're arguing strawmen (seems to be a trademark). Who said anything about Sidious or secret conversations? The argument was Maul and the Jedi identifying him as a Sith Lord. Stick to it if you want to debate it and don't put claims on me that I never said.
     
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  9. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    He also said ''you've become a rival'' right? It means Maul was a rival in that regard and he needed to be dispose of. If Maul wasn't a Sith and his apprentice wasn't a Sith apprentice, what's the point of taking care of them and stating that they were his rival.

    I think they were Sith until Palpatine defeated Maul and Savage in that fight, and after that yeah Maul wasn't a Sith since he lost his apprentice, his power base etc.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
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  10. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    They were all pretty surprised when he revealed himself. He also didn't tell them his plan when he revealed himself.

    So are you backing off your made up recordings comment? Because, what you said is right there.

    And YOUR basing that argument on recordings...that don't exist! And if they did exist, the Jedi would have that information. So what is on these recordings you imagine? Just Maul in his room standing in a mirror repeating "I am a Sith Lord" to himself?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  11. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    To be fair, Maul technically never surpassed his master in power to become the top Sith. So you could argue that his apprenticing of his brother was fundamentally invalid, not only on pedantic grounds, but on substantive philosophical grounds.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I never claimed that. I only ever said that the cameras would be on in the hangar, which is how Maul knew where they were and why the Droidekas were sent there to attack the strike team. I never said anything about them being on in the rest of the palace. You assumed that.

    How? Jedi die in the line of duty. Qui-gon even says so to Anakin.



    I didn't dodge anything. I made a point that the Jedi were not winning in that battle. I also pointed out that the Jedi were already losing because they never prepared for the Sith's possible return, much less that they would change tactics this time.

    Obi-wan defeated two Sith Lords because they were sloppy, not because he was the better fighter. In fact, he lost to Maul until he became too arrogant and he was about to lose to Vader when he jumped onto the bank. As to Maul, sending him is no different from sending Luke to face Vader.

    They're rivals because their actions could very well result in all four of them winding up dead, or at best, exposing him to the Jedi. That is why Palpatine went after Maul and Savage on Mandalore. Gaining control of the Mandalorians and Black Sun was too much of a problem for Palpatine. Hence taking charge. Once Mother Talzin is dead, Palpatine is no longer concerned with Maul and making finding less of a priority.[/quote]
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  13. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Except that's never shown in the film. You're literally making it up. It's like saying Maul owned a puppy. Okay, sure, that's your own personal fan fiction. Write a fanfic about it.

    Because Obi-Wan weeps as he holds him. Then they have a somber funeral.
    The Jedi defeated Sidious; until Anakin turned Sith and betrayed Mace. It took combined strikes from Palpatine and Anakin to kill him. Numbers matter.

    So the Council made a mistake by sending a Jedi Master protecting 3 wards (Queen, padawan and child), while the decision to send a full fledged Jedi Knight and Jedi Master to face Dooku was sensible. There was no Council decision involved in Luke facing Vader.
     
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    So, they have cameras outside, but not inside. And not on in the hangar, in case intruders get in or out. Right.

    That's not the same as what you're saying, which is the Jedi should be panicking because one Jedi died.

    No it didn't. And no, Sidious was never defeated. He was in control the whole time.

    Yoda and Obi-wan were the last of the Jedi Council. They've trained Luke to take out the Sith. They even tell him to go and face him. And there was no mistake on Naboo, because Maul was defeated even if it cost Qui-gon his life to do so.
     
  15. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    If you pay close attention to the film. YES. Cameras are inside are NOT relevant. They are never mentioned or used. At all. Them having cameras in the palace is just as relevant as whether or not Palpatine had a teddy bear.

    Please quote where I said that; or it didn't happen.
    [​IMG]

    Before or after he was on the ground begging for mercy?
    [​IMG]

    But I thought you said:
    So let me get this straight; In your view the Jedi Council made no mistakes and did everything right, but at the same time Sidious was in complete control of all their actions?
    [​IMG]
     
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Cameras are used as that's how Nute realizes that the battle out in the field is a distraction. Remember, Maul doesn't come to Naboo until late in the film. The Federation needs to be able to make sure that the building is secure and if the droids are destroyed, how can they secure the palace?

    He was pretending, remember? He wasn't losing.

    Right. He's studied his enemy for a long time, as had his predecessors. The Jedi are like an open book and Palpatine knew how to play them. Every action they took was anticipated in advanced. The Jedi weren't going to do something different from what they would always do and as a result, he could manipulate them based on that. That's why he knew that they'd go to Geonosis to rescue Obi-wan and stop an impending attack on the Republic. The Jedi would not sit out the war and stand idly by, even if it was the right thing to do. They'd get involved because their Code demands that they must. He also knew that Council would become suspicious of him, which is why he manipulated them into using Anakin as a spy. He knew that Anakin would either tell the Council, or join him. He had two variations based on either outcome. He knew that Mace would rush to confront him, rather than wait and tell the rest of the Council in order to prepare. He even knew that Mace had a growing distrust and that he could push him to go in a different direction.
     
  17. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Radios.

    Pretending what? He tried to kill Mace Windu with his lightning, it didn't work. He wasn't in control physically of the situation.

    [​IMG]

    BTW don't think I didn't notice you didn't respond to this:
    Interesting.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  18. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    The whole point of the situation was to lure Anakin to side with him. That's why he faked his weakness and that he couldn't hold on any longer. This is abundantly clear if you look at what happens right afterwards. Once Anakin sides with him, Palpatine goes from "I'm to weak and can't hold it any longer" to smiling and saying "unlimited power!" in an instant. That wouldn't have been possible if he had not been in control of the situation. He definately could have kept Mace Windu at bay, but there was zero advantage in doing so. He wanted to have Anakin at his side, for that Anakin needed to join up with him. Anakin would hardly have any reason to do so if the situation looked to be even or in favour of Palpatine. Remember, Anakin needed him to survive, but that didn't mean that he thought of joining him at that point.

    One must really have run out of arguments when all there is left is answering with gifs. Then again, reading the rest of the topic, that isn't all that surprising...
     
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  19. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    He threatens Mace Windu's life then shoots lightning at him, Mace Windu blocks it and he runs out of energy. This is consistent with Yoda blocking lightning in AOTC and again later on in ROTS. He already had Anakin on his side because he had convinced him he was needed to save Padme. In that situation Mace Windu decided whether or not Palpatine lived or died. He just allowed him to live for too long.
     
  20. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    He pretends to have run out of energy.
     
  21. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Ah okay. Just like when he pretends to fall over his chair against Yoda. Just like in ROTJ when he pretends to fall in that hole. Gotcha.
     
  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The proof that he hadn't "run out of energy" was that he still had energy to throw at Mace, immediately after Mace's hand is cut off.

    If he'd really run out of energy, there would have been nothing to throw.
     
  23. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    It's most likely a ruse.

    Darth Sidious is litterly shouting "UNLIMTED POWER" as he electrocutes Mace Windu.

    And when Sidious stands up after Mace gets fried and tossed out the window, Sidious isn't even winded. He's not hurt form his face changing. He puts on his robe, knights Darth Vader, and then it's Order 66.
     
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  24. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    You're arguinmg against yourself. I never said he ran out of energy. This isn't Pokemon.
    Well he's been lying on the ground for about a minute. He has no reason to be winded.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  25. heels1785

    heels1785 Skywalker Saga + JCC Manager / Finally Won A Draft star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2003
     
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