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PT Did the Jedi look for Sidious before Geonosis?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by The One Above All, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    This actually makes complete sense and made me rethink my position. Well done. =D=

    Well I assume if they did, it isn't shown because it isn't relevant. It's like having a scene where they are putting fuel in the ship...no please just skip that, when we see the ship leaving Coruscant we assume it has been fueled. The Council had the testimony of the commanding Jedi on the scene, we can assume Obi-Wan gave one as well but it's nowhere near as relevant as Qui-Gons, so why show it?

    Yeah I know, I saw the film too. This does not refute y argument that the Council had substantial evidence/clues that Maul was a Sith, and thus should have sent more help due to the danger Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan would be facing in returning to Naboo.

    I agree. @darth-sinister is the one claiming that a dying Yoda and Obi-Wan's ghost were "the Jedi Council."

    If we do a case study of success based on the number of support staff, physical engagements where you have more support percentage-wise result in more positive outcomes. This is why virtually every police force on the planet calls for backup when engaging a suspect, regardless of how dangerous they think the person may or may not be. This is why the Jedi should have provided back up for Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan, who were at a minimum going to confront a highly trained Dark Jedi and more likely an actual Sith Lord.

    They were made aware. Mace Windu tells Qui-Gon that this could allow them to "unravel the mystery of the Sith," implying they were well aware that the attacker had a high chance of being a Sith Lord. Anakin is just another being they were foolishly willing to throw right into the hands of the Sith.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
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  2. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    No two Jedi were sent to track down Maul. They only went with Padme because they thought that Maul would come after her again and could thus draw him out.

    And in AotC the Jedi came to deal with Dooku, that is what Mace says in the film. "We will deal with Dooku."
    And he also says that they are NOT soldiers.

    And compare the situation in TPM with AotC.
    A possible Sith Lord is on Naboo, behind a massive military blockade (as far as the Jedi knew) and he is working with the TF, who have occupied the planet and have a massive droid army there.
    And said TF would try to arrest or kill Padme, who the Jedi are travelling with and have to look out for.
    Solution: Two Jedi is all that is needed.

    AotC, one ex Jedi is on a planet where a droid army is being built and is waiting for transport.
    No military blockade.
    Solution: Two hundred Jedi is needed.

    Yeah this really makes no sense.

    Bye.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  3. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    I don't get the impression they did look for Sidious. Or it wasn't shown to be a priority.

    I don't know if it is George Lucas' visionary canon, but I think there was a novel called Larbrynth of Evil which nicely gave a potential storyline for the Jedi Council going for Sidious all blasters/lightsabers blazing. And Sidious advances the Attack on Coruscant to distract them, as they get dangerously close....

    I won't spoil it, but I hope they could make that into an anthology movie.

    The Jedi Council's arrogance and hiding in their vaunted Temple had blinded them to not only the truth, but to plain common sense.

    Agreed. I believe they thought that capturing Dooku would end this war. Interestingly perhaps Yoda told Luke that is why he should be willing to sacrifice. Had Yoda not attempted to save Anakin and Obi Wan, he may have captured Dooku instead. And there would have gone the unifying public leader of the CIS.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    I didn't say he was scared scared. I was talking about Maul looking like this ugly, hideous being. He's not bothered by him when he's on the ship and away, because he knows that he wasn't the target. He just happened to have been in the way of Maul's attack on Qui-gon. Anakin doesn't frighten easily which plays into who he becomes during the Clone Wars. His reputation for being the "Hero without Fear". His only fears are for those that he loves being taken from him.

    He never states that he believes or disbelieves him. He never broaches the subject and no one asks him for his opinion.

    It is relevant in that the Jedi just don't believe everything they're told. They cast doubt about Anakin being the Chosen One and they cast doubt about Maul being a Sith. They need more proof than just the word of one Jedi.

    Obi-wan's still present as he's talking to Yoda and has to convince him to train Luke. Unless you believe that both Luke and Yoda were hitting the root leaf a little too hard. ;)

    So yes, there is still a Council left. Two members were still present. One in the physical world and one in the spiritual world.

    What history?

    No, Qui-gon died because Maul was a better fighter. Not because he didn't have another Jedi with him.

    Not secrecy. To maintain their ability to help when needed. Sending too many Jedi into a conflict that they weren't authorized to do so, would lead to the end of the Jedi Order being allowed to help at all.

    Only one person died in this conflict and that was Qui-gon. Five Jedi wouldn't change that. The only thing is that it might have been five dead Jedi, instead of just one.

    They knew she was going back to Naboo, but not what she was going to do precisely. Even Qui-gon didn't know until Padme talked to Jar Jar about recruiting his people to help. The Council just assumed that she was going to do something that could widen the conflict on Naboo.

    It can be both. That's why Ki-Adi said that her presence could draw out Maul, but their other job was to protect her.

    Multiple Jedi are needed to prevent the forthcoming attack on the Republic. That's why Yoda and Obi-wan both say that they can stop the war on Geonosis, before it even begins. The Council have permission to go to Geonosis and get involved, they didn't with Naboo.
     
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  5. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    You literally said:
    Again, there is NOTHING scarier than a highly trained assassin trying to kill you. There is nothing he could have imagined that could be scarier.

    Cool. Now tell me whether the he ever broaches the subject of blue milk.

    Which is a poor system, since that Jedi died and 13 years later the rest of them died.

    Not according to the film. The word "Council" is never mentioned.

    Human history.

    If he had more Jedi with him he wouldn't need to be a better fighter.

    So don't help people because if you do, you won't be able to help people that you're not helping? [face_dunno]

    Many Gungans died; several pilots; and I'm assuming some of the palace guards. If Jedi had been sent to support; Qui-Gon likely would have lived.

    I didn't say this. I've seen the film and know every scene. Get you're quotes right please.
     
  6. heels1785

    heels1785 JCC/PT/New Films Manager star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2003
    Hey, @The Supreme Chancellor. It was an innocent mistake, and an easy one to make when quoting multiple people in a post. We all make mistakes.

    Debate and argue all day, every day. Don't be antagonistic just for kicks.

    Thanks.
     
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Kryat Dragons trying to get him when he leaves Mos Espa to run errands for Watto. Being shot at by Tusken Raiders while podracing. Seeing Jabba and Gardulla getting freaky. Lots of scarier things.

    Qui-gon dies because he lost to a better warrior, plain and simple. The lack of involvement wouldn't change that. And the Jedi being killed during Order 66 had nothing to do with what the Council did or didn't do on Naboo. It had to do with thinking they could stop Sidious's plans before he could initiate them.

    It doesn't have to be spoken out loud. We see two Council members who are present. Thus, they are the Jedi Council.

    Care to elaborate.

    The Jedi Posse were some of the best fighters and strongest Jedi in the Order. They weren't good enough to defeat Sidious. What makes you think that would matter with Maul?

    No, it means that the Jedi don't want to be just like the Sith, who started out going against the Senate's wishes and doing whatever the hell they want. The Jedi have to be careful in how they handle matters that could boomerang around and result in their own destruction.

    Those people's deaths had to do with the Droid Army. In a Lightsaber duel, only one Jedi was killed. And Qui-gon may have still died, along with whoever went with him, if there were more Jedi.
     
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  8. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    None of those were scarier. So why pretend that Anakin dind't see Maul?

    He died because of poor judgement on the part of the Council. Which is the same reason why the Jedi were wiped out.

    Not according to the film. According to the film the Jedi Order is no more. Luke is the return.

    Actually, no.

    The fact that Maul was substantially less powerful than Sidious.

    Ironically the actions you're defending are what result in their destruction.

    May have, yes. But was much more likely no to. This, again, is called preparing. It's why you put on a seat belt when you drive.
     
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  9. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    About TPM and the Jedi sending two Jedi to deal with Maul, protect Padme etc.

    1) Did they WANT to send more than two Jedi but they were not allowed to because of rules?
    First, this is never said IN the film. No one says "I wish we could send more people but the rules forbid it."
    Second, it does not make much sense that it is fine to send TWO Jedi but not THREE.
    Why? They didn't have a senate ok to send ANY Jedi so why is just two still fine but three would go too far?
    Regardless of the number of Jedi, they are involving themselves. They side with Padme against the TF.

    But ignoring this, the situation is;
    2) Possible Sith could be on Naboo, behind a massive military blockade. Since he is working with the TF, who has a massive army there, he could could use that.
    Knowing this, they did send two Jedi, one who was not even a full knight.
    Did they expect that they could do this?
    If Yes, then only two Jedi can overcome massive military blockade and big army, no problem.
    If No, then they are sending Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin to their deaths.

    This does not make much sense and there never is that much worry from the Jedi that this could go badly.
    That Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan might be killed.
    They even think it is so safe and easy that Qui-Gon can take a small kid with him.
    To me, this undercuts the drama and suspense..
    This is apparently easy peasy so there is no tension.

    About AotC and the Jedi going to fight a war.
    If that was their goal, not just get Dooku but fight a battle to stop the war from ever starting.
    First, they only mention that they must stop Dooku from leaving, that will apparently be enough to end the war before it starts.
    Two, since Yoda and the clone army is 30 minutes behind the Jedi, why didn't they talk to each other and make some sort of plan?
    If the Jedi know that a big army is just behind them, then they could plan their strategy accordingly.
    And not waste lives by charging against an overwhelming droid army.

    But instead the Jedi comes across as stupid and totally inept when it comes to battles.
    I know that there was a screen about an attack against a droid control ship, but since it is not IN the film, I don't count it.
    Their misn goal was Dooku, get him, neutralize him or kill him if need be.
    So send more than one Jedi against him.
    They are outnumbered, so instead of spreading their forces out, focus them.
    Have Mace be backed up by two or three masters and 5-6 Jedi guard the corridor.
    Make is simple, "Stand down or die!"
    If Dooku calls the droids, the Jedi can hold them off long enough for Mace to get Dooku to surrender or kill him if he refuses.
    That's it.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  10. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Of course there's no reason why more than two could not go. Unlike in the earlier mission which was to resolve a trade dispute, this time they're protecting VIP Republic dignitaries from lightsaber wielding killers & an army of droids. If the Jedi wanted to they could send 30 Knights. However, if they wished to "draw out the attacker" perhaps they thought that any more Jedi would work against that idea. The attacker seemed quite brazen on Tatooine, but 10 Jedi might make him think twice about another attempt. On the other hand the Jedi are skeptical that this attacker is even a Sith, so I can't see why they'd assume he'd have the power to sense the extent of the Jedi presence on Naboo. Also, is their secondary goal (discovering Maul's identity) more important that safeguarding the Queen? It shouldn't be. So on balance I think they definitely should've sent more than one Jedi & his Padawan. That seems ridiculous given the gravity of the situation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
  11. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    I agree. It's like the Jedi Council became as ineffectual as the Republic they served. They just sat there.

    Why not send more Jedi? Given that this was supposedly the discovery of a dangerous enemy long thought destroyed? And given the Jedi had already sent two of their Order for the trade talks in the first place. Now with the discovery of this mysterious attacker, send in several Masters and Knights. It is not shown in TPM that they are overly busy. In AOTC, we are told that Jedi are struggling to maintain control owing to numbers, so I can buy lack of free Jedi then. Although still, there was no need to send Anakin to look after Padme. Send him with Obi Wan and have some other Jedi look after her. I'll look after her if you like.

    But the point is that the Jedi Council seemed to act too late. Demonstrated by Windu doing what needed to be done in ROTS. But by that point, they were politically outmatched and essentially launching a coup.

    I concur that had more Jedi gone to Naboo, Maul would have been outmatched. See HISHE's TPM video on that. Frankly I'm not sure why Jedi testimony of Qui Gon and Obi Wan couldn't verify the Queen's story. Given that again we are given a Jedi's testimony that the Separatist's are amassing on Geonosis and about to attack the Republic. Surely a "COMMISSION" should have been sent to verify those facts before approving the creation of a Grand Army of the Republic??

    I'm not sure why Qui Gon couldn't call for help on Tatooine, or even steal the parts?
    I think you're right. The Jedi underestimated their opponents and overestimated their ability. Your overconfidence is your weakness. And your faith in your friends.

    Have multiple Jedi focus on Dooku. I guess Yoda's lesson of sacrificing friends came up in ESB. Yoda didn't sacrifice Obi Wan and Anakin to stop Dooku. He should have.

    Frankly, even Yoda, why did he go alone? He senses something being the most powerful Jedi around, he requests his Commander for a ship. But takes no one with him? Take all those troopers at the Forward Command Centre (reminds me of Battlefront), and other Jedi.

    Mind you I did like the Arena battle when you saw all the Jedi fall to overwhelming numbers of droids. On the cinema screen, that was epic.

    In ROTS, a Jedi Junta led Republic would have been interesting.
     
  12. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    The Trade Federation were monitoring all channels, and they were much closer. If he divulged their location to Republic assistance the TF would have been on them like white on rice. Also, if Watto noticed the parts being stolen, Qui-Gon (and possibly everyone else on the ship) would have had to deal with Hutt justice (likely death), it simply wasn't worth the risk.

    Yeah I always found that to be odd. Why didn't he pick up Mace Windu to bring with him? Was killing droids on the battlefield more important to Windu? I guess you could argue that a squad of troopers would have been wiped out by Dooku anyways and may have even been a distraction to Yoda. I also don't know why Dooku doesn't land a killing blow while Yoda is holding the rock.
     
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    A Kryat Dragon is scarier than a Sith Lord. Being shot at by Tusken Raiders is just as bad as almost being run over or having your pod crash into the desert ground, at 8,000 miles an hour. As to Maul, Anakin isn't a typical child who is afraid of the dark or the monster in his closet. He doesn't scare easily. Just look at what he has to deal with. He only becomes afraid when it comes to leaving his mother. He's not even afraid when he's being shot at by Vulture droids and his N-1 Fighter takes a hit. And the fact is that the ship is away in hyperspace now and Maul is back there on Tatooine.

    No, he was killed by a better fighter. It would have happened regardless of the number of Jedi who were there or not.

    YODA: "When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be."

    Yoda's not dead in TESB and Obi-wan is there to speak up on Luke's behalf. Two Jedi Council members. Hence, a Council.

    Then why even bring it up?

    But more powerful than two Jedi were. He killed one and bested the other one in combat.

    No, they were killed because...

    A) They trusted the Clonetroopers.

    B) Believed that they could end the war before the Sith could exploit the Clone Army.

    C) Mace broke the Jedi Code which resulted in Anakin's betrayal and thus allowing Order 66 to be carried out.

    Seatbelts don't always protect you. Same with airbags.

    They are there to protect her from being killed. They never lead the battle and never come up with a plan. Maul even prevents them from carrying out their assignment by challenging them in the hangar. It's okay to send the same two Jedi because the Council is confident in their abilities and keeps the Senate pacified that it doesn't look like Jedi intervention by sending another Jedi, after only sending two.

    One Jedi is worth a hundred warriors. So the Jedi are confident in two Jedi being able to deal with Battle Droids and Droidekas, as well as any other personnel who Padme is able to find to help her. There is still tension there because we the audience knows that Maul is a Sith Lord and he could be a threat to the two Jedi, while the Droid Army is a threat to the Gungan Army and the small band of fighters who storm Theed. The only lack of tension is that if you've seen the OT first, then you know Obi-wan and Anakin won't be killed.

    The Jedi aren't aware that they're walking into a trap. They're also confident that there's enough of them to face off against a threat like this and Mace is confident that he can deal with Dooku and Jango. Remember, he's one of the more powerful Jedi in the Order. That's why he goes up there to face Dooku. The other Jedi are spread out because they're blocking the other exits and are ready to help the captives.

    As noted, Qui-gon was worried that the Federation would pick up their transmission and find them sooner. He and Obi-wan both insist that no reply is to be sent when they receive the message from Sio Bibble from Naboo, because they will be able to lock on to them. Maul was able to trace them to Tatooine, but he doesn't know where they are. He has to use probes to find Qui-gon and it takes hours for him to do so.

    As to stealing the parts, Qui-gon isn't a thief. It isn't the Jedi way to do something like that. That's why he looks for another solution to present itself.
     
  14. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Anakin witnesses the attack on Qui-Gon.
    Having more combatants in combat is an advantage.

    Not according to the film. According to the film, Luke is the return of the Jedi.
    To refute your point.

    Then we are agreed. Maul was weaker than Sidious and thus could have easily been defeated by a group of Jedi. I won't let you change the subject on this one, nice try though.

    So they were killed because of stupid decisions, like choosing to send a two Jedi to confront an army and a Sith Lord while protecting a queen and a child.
     
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  15. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014

    Yes I suppose the Federation were monitoring. But in AOTC and ROTS we see Jedi communicating more via hologram. So when watching TPM firstly, it was fine. But seeing the next two films, then I wondered, couldn't Qui Gon have contacted the Temple directly for help? And couldn't they still hide on Tatooine. As for the parts, yes I mean I know it's against the code to steal, but perhaps it would have been simpler to borrow them shall we say and reimburse him later. I don't think it would be beyond his capabilities to do so. Qui Gon, Jedi Master and a few Naboo guards to carry the goods versus maybe a drunk Watto? I agree though that they were trying to avoid attention.

    Yes for the Yoda on Geonosis, I think Yoda perhaps demonstrated the same overconfidence that he had spoken about to Obi Wan and Windu earlier by going alone. Certainly the sacrifice aspect he mentioned to Luke in ESB, where he let Dooku escape by saving the two Jedi from death. I do think he should have taken Windu absolutely. Or any Jedi, and Clone Troopers! My word he was at the Forward Command Centre. I wonder if his Clone Commander thought that Yoda was off to go and get a drink when he just took off no explanation haha. The priority was Dooku and the leadership. So take an entire battalion and surround that hangar.

    Yes I agree, troopers alone versus Dooku, unless in overwhelming numbers would have been pointless in themselves. But troopers to seal the exits whilst the Jedi take him on would have made sense. Yes maybe Dooku was from a different age of honour and would not attack an opponent in that way. Or maybe he thought if he stuck around much longer (he appeared genuinely panicked both seeing Yoda deflect lightning and also scared when he could not best the little Jedi in a duel) that he would die.

    As for Tatooine, I even heard theories on why didn't Qui Gon sell the handmaidens to raise money for the parts. Or indeed why didn't Padme and others free Shmi out of gratitude after TPM? As Padme said she owed Anakin everything after he won the pod race.


    Yes I agree on Maul and Sidious. As to what the Jedi Council did whilst their ancient enemy returned is beyond me. Perhaps the Jedi were just as ineffectual as the corrupt Republic they served.

    Yoda should have said, "Hmm more Jedi are needed. With more experience," before they dispatched Qui Gon and Obi Wan.

     
  16. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Again, the Trade Federation was monitoring all channels. And likely had a bounty out for the queen as well. It makes complete sense that he wouldn't be able to contact the temple. It's also not about tricking a drunk Watto, it's about having to deal with the Hutts if you openly break their laws.

    Being a Jedi isn't about losing a life to take a life. It's about preserving life. Yoda did the right thing philosophy-wise. Tactical wise it was it little foolish.

    In the very least they would have at least been able to disable his ship.

    In-universe: It was a tell tale sign of the corruption and arrogance of the Republic and the Jedi. Once you have served your purpose for us, you don't exist.
    Out-of-universe: plot hole. writers just forgot.
     
  17. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    To protect her from getting killed is still interfering.
    And if the TF sent 1000 battledroids to kill Padme, could just two Jedi beat that many?
    Maul did not prevent anything, they are there BECAUSE of Maul.
    So the plan was always to let Padme fend for herself once they found Maul.

    Say Maul never showed up on Tatooine and the rest plays out as is.
    Would the Jedi still go with Padme to Naboo?
    When there is no sith mystery to solve?

    They went with Padme because they figured that they could draw out Maul.
    Once that happened, Padme was on her own, the Jedi were busy.
    And if they still wanted to protect Padme then sending just two Jedi is even more idiotic.
    If Padme's safety was a concern, send more than two Jedi so that some can deal with Maul and the rest can protect Padme.

    And the Jedi NEVER got ANY ok from the Senate to do anything.
    At the start, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were sent by Valorum, NOT the senate.
    They had NO ok to protect Padme or involve themselves.

    So if getting a senate ok is a concern, then they should not send ANY Jedi to help Padme.
    And why would the senate be fine with two Jedi going, despite them not saying it is ok, but would flip their **** if three Jedi go?
    This makes no sense at all.

    The Jedi are involving themselves with this matter and the senate have not given them any kind of permission to do so.
    The senate would be pissed at the Jedi no matter how many Jedi they send. Two or two hundred, no difference, they had NOT gotten a senate ok so if that is so crucial then it is all illegal, treason or what ever you want to call it.

    The TF have a great deal more than a few hundred battle droids, they have many thousands of them.
    And two Jedi could not beat two droidekas and had to run away.

    There is no tension as this mission is apparently so easy and safe that they bring a small kid with them.
    Nine year old Anakin being there and not one person asks "Hey should this kid be here, this could be kind of dangerous?"
    Not one comment so they all expected this to be a walk in the park.
    "The blockade that we barely got through the last time?"
    Not one word about that before they leave and when they arrive, it is gone, very convenient.

    There is so much Jedi stupidity here.
    First, they know that Obi-Wan was attacked while sending a message so the element of surprise is likely lost and the Seps would be on alert.
    Second, one Jedi alone against Dooku and Jango and no backup nearby, that is totally moronic.
    Third, blocking the exists? The Geonosians can fly so a lot of good that did.
    And they were totally unable to block any of the large number of droids coming in.
    And there were NO Jedi blocking the exit where Mace walked out of, arguably THE most important exit to cover.
    And the Jedi jumped DOWN, into an enclosed area to charge an enemy that outnumbered them. This is incompetent with a capital Fail.

    [/QUOTE]

    Which would be very simple, go to another trader, one NOT Force immune, use the credits and buy goods and equipment equal or greater than the value of the parts and go back and trade that.
    Simple and would take maybe an hour or two.

    @The Supreme Chancellor
    But that the TF can monitor ALL channels in the entire galaxy. That is quite a big thing.
    That they know the ship id and could monitor signals sent from it, ok.
    But say Qui-Gon went to a public communications center on Tatooine and contacted the Jedi order from there, could the TF pick up on that so quickly that they could get to Tatooine before the Jedi could?

    And bounty, the TF would not really want to advertise the fact that they are hunting down the queen of Naboo. They claim that all they are doing is a legal blockade. If word gets out that they offer a big reward for the capture of the queen of Naboo, people might start to wonder what they are doing.

    And as I said above, Qui-Gon had a very simple alternative.
    Go to another trader and use the mind trick to make him/her accept the credits and buy valuable goods or equipment and use that to barter with Watto.
    Quicker, easier and far less risky.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  18. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    This makes sense. I'll play devil's advocate for my assertions however, just because.

    - We never truly find out what "channels" are (probably so we can't point out plot holes) but if we assume they are something like radio frequencies, I assume the TF could monitor all the messages being sent to Coruscant and track them from there. As a diplomatic ship Padme's vessel should have SOME sort of secret code to send to the Republic, but the TF could possibly track location from it even if they didn't understand what was being said?

    -Thing about the bounty makes sense as well. The bounties would have to be secret not public, this would still allow them to have multiple bounty hunters out looking for Padme.

    - On the mind trick, Watto already suspected Qui-Gon of being a Jedi. Whatever trick Qui-Gon pulled, the helpless person that he tricked into taking worthless money would likely somehow get their wits back about them and rumour may even find it's way back to Watto and thus the authorities. I may be reaching for straws on this but I think it very reasonable that doing so would at the most end them up in a Hutt prison and at the least attract enough attention that the TF finds them.
     
  19. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    But we are talking about ALL the communications to and from the capitol of the republic, a city planet.
    Billions live there. It would be like trying to monitor ALL telephone calls in the entire world.
    I would imagine that the population of Coruscant is larger than Earths.

    And as I said, if Qui-Gon does not use the communications device on Padme's ship and instead uses the SW equivalent of a phone booth. And he calls the Jedi Order.
    Could the TF intercept that and trace it back?

    There is an issue of time here.
    How long was Padme on Tatooine? A couple of days?
    Since the TF would not want to broadcast this for all to hear, they need to get bounty hunters come to them, explain the mission etc.
    And do they have the contacts for this?
    And Sidious told them that he will handle Padme. So would the TF do anything or assume that he is taking care of it?

    [/QUOTE]

    From the films, I didn't get the impression that a mind tricked person just snaps out of it a few minuets later.
    Take the troopers that Obi-Wan used it on, if they got their wits back and raised the alarm five minutes later, then the mind trick ins't all that useful.
    Obi-Wan did his thing on the death sticks guy, the "Go home and rethink my life" bit makes no sense if he snaps out of it soon after.

    So whoever Qui-Gon used it on, would think no more of it. Maybe when he or she tried to use the money, then questions would be asked. But why would the Hutts care?
    They would just view this as some guy who got swindled and accepted not very useful money.
    If some guy buys a ship because the person selling it says it is the fastest ever and then it turns out it is junk. Would the Hutts do anything? Or laugh at how stupid the guy was?

    And it also does not make much sense that republic credits can not be used anywhere on Tatooine.
    Does no one on the planet do any kind of business with anyone in the Republic?
    People from all over the outer territories come to Tatooine for the races and I would imagine that they would spend some money. And I doubt they all use the same currency.
    So some form of exchange services would likely exist.

    This whole thing is just so we can have the race.
    No matter how contrived this is.

    A simpler solution would be that Watto does not have the parts, but he knows who does, Sebulba.
    And Sebulba isn't interested in selling but he is willing to race for them.
    So Qui-Gon bets the ship against him.
    And the pod against Watto.

    So we have the race.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    And...it...didn't...scare...him. Again, Anakin is not a kid who is afraid of thunder and lightning, or the Boogeyman. His only fear in his life is the fear of loss due to his attachments. As a kid, he was racing pods and showed no fear. He was shot at and showed no fear. Ten years later, he's laughing as chasing after Zam. This is why Anakin was labeled as the hero without fear.

    The films show otherwise.

    YODA: "When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be."

    According to Yoda, he's still a Jedi up until he dies. So there are two Jedi in TESB and ROTJ. And Obi-wan is still around as a ghost, making him a Jedi Council member.

    You did a lousy job at it.

    No, it doesn't mean that Maul was weaker. It means that Maul only fought two Jedi in TPM and defeated both in battle. You'd have a case if four Jedi went to Naboo and he couldn't beat all four.

    It wasn't dumb since Maul was defeated anyway.

    In AOTC, no one is looking for Padme away from Coruscant. She left Dorme behind with her entourage and traveled via registered transport to Naboo. Anakin never contacts Coruscant until he's told to by Obi-wan. And Obi-wan does send a transmission on Kamino, but no one is looking for him there. And when he's found on Geonosis, it's because of a sentry, not because he contacts Anakin. In ROTS, the war effort is on so it doesn't matter except in certain battles. If Qui-gon sent out a transmission, the Federation would pick up on it and lock on to where the ship was.

    Watto's not that stupid and that's still stealing. Stealing is defined as taking something that doesn't belong to you. How it is done doesn't change anything.

    Interfering is defined as Qui-gon Jinn forming a battle plan, recruiting the Gungan Army and then leading the mission to retake Theed.

    Fortunately, there were a dozen guards and soldiers armed with blasters who helped out. Same way that the Clonetroopers helped the Jedi to win the First Battle of Geonosis. Now, if they were going out to face the Battle Droids instead of the Gungans, then you'd have a point.

    Maul prevents them from continuing on trying to protect her, because he shows up.

    Yes, they would still be sent back with her because they could be invited to help in the negotiations, after the fighting was done.

    The Jedi Council send only two Jedi to protect Padme from an assassin, instead of assigning additional help from Luminara and Barriss, who are also in Palpatine's office. But they believe that only two are enough.

    The Chancellor could send Jedi out to do certain assignments without the approval of the Senate and sometimes, without informing the Jedi Council. But when it came to sending Jedi out to deal with a matter like the Naboo blockade, Valorum could send them in, but he was already publicly in hot water because of the scandal that he was mired in. It was a very risky thing that he did and apparently one that he couldn't risk revealing, hence the Jedi never testify. If it could have been solved then and there, the Jedi's involvement would probably not be revealed. As it is now, the Council could send them back to deal with Maul and protect Padme, but they couldn't be involved in anything else.

    And fortunately, they had a Gungan Army and a dozen or so soldiers and guards. That's why the Droid Army was lead away from the palace, leaving a smaller and more manageable skeleton crew.

    But there is still tension. The Gungans don't have that advanced of weaponry, the Jedi are up against someone who can put up a fight against two of them, there's a small number of soldiers and guards and the N-1 Fighters aren't capable of penetrating the shields and are being destroyed left and right. Just because no one talks about the overwhelming odds, doesn't mean that there is tension.

    Not really. They just see Obi-wan as an intruder who was caught and interrogated, then scheduled for termination. The Jedi believe that the Separatists wouldn't be expecting an invasion from a Jedi who is on assignment.

    So was Luke going against Jabba's men, but he managed to pull it off. So was Han, Luke and Chewie rescuing Leia. So was Han, Finn and Chewie going to rescue Rey. So was Obi-wan and Anakin rescuing Palpatine. "Star Wars" is filled with a lot of stupidity, as you call it.

    Kept them from going inside.

    All of which came in from the gates down in the arena floor.

    Mace and the Jedi went down to A) destroy the Droid Army and B) make sure there was enough Jedi around Padme so that if Anakin fell, another could rush to help her.

    Except Qui-gon trusted the Force which told him to do this and not that.

    They can monitor signals coming from the direction that they went to and didn't make a hyperspace jump.

    Yes, because Naboo and Tatooine are pretty close to each other. The Jedi are all the way in the interior. And this assumes that there was a holonet type phone booth on Tatooine, to reach out and touch someone.
     
  21. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I didn't say it didn't scare him. I just said he witnessed it. Why is this difficult to grasp?

    Watch them again.

    Not according to ROTJ. Luke is considered the last Jedi. Also there is no Jedi temple for a council to convene.

    [​IMG]

    He was. That's why he was the apprentice and Sidious was the master. Right?

    And then 13 years later the Jedi were WIPED OUT. Smart!
     
    Samuel Vimes likes this.
  22. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Apparently he didn't need to. Maul went straight to Tatooine even though Obi-Wan made sure no reply was sent back to Naboo. There was no explanation as to how. I guess the Sith had some ultra-advanced tracking technology. Why wouldn't they share this with their allies such as the TF?
    So you'll agree that Qui-Gon is a dirty thief. A trader tells him that Credits are no good to him yet QG still attempts to swindle him out of a hyperdrive he owns & leave him with useless currency. Trying to manipulate his mind in order to do so. Stealing is stealing. How it is done doesn't change anything.
    Amazing! The following two movies go to great lengths to point out that the Chancellor does not hold that kind of direct influence over the Jedi. Lucas tents to forget important plot points that he himself establishes.
    Bcs in the OT they were a small ragtag group of Rebels. I'm sure they wished they could send 50 Jedi Knights on a mission!
     
  23. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Nice made up definition that you pulled out of nowhere to justify your argument.
    It is also total nonsense.
    Interfering;
    1) to come into opposition, as one thing with another, especially with the effect of hampering action or procedure.
    2) to strike against each other, or one against another, so as to hamper or hinder action

    The Jedi clearly interfered with the TF. The TF took Padme captive and planned to make her sign some treaty. The Jedi ruined that plan by freeing her.
    The Jedi are going with Padme, knowing that the TF will try to either capture her or kill her, and they plan to stop them doing that. That is INTERFERING.

    So 10-20 guards would even the odds so that two Jedi CAN beat 1000 battledroids?
    Really?
    When they leave Coruscant, the Jedi don't know what will happen on Naboo except one thing, the TF will try to capture/kill Padme and the TF have a massive army and a huge blockade.
    So the situation could happen that the Jedi will face a massive number of droids. And either two Jedi can beat that with ease, which deflates tension. Or they will die, in which case the Jedi are morons.

    He prevented nothing as the Jedi were on Naboo with the intent of drawing him out.
    Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were sent with Padme because the Jedi figured that this dark warrior would strike again. So they saw an opportunity to learn more about him.
    So IF Maul showed up, Padme would be on her own.
    I wonder if Qui-Gon told her this before they left Coruscant.
    "I will try to help you but you should know that we are looking for this guy that attacked me on Tatooine and if he shows up, you are on your own."

    Again, if they are serious about protecting Padme, send more Jedi. This is not difficult.

    "Could be invited"? Is this actually said or are you making stuff up again?

    So just two Jedi can overcome a massive military blockade, a huge droid army and a possible sith lord?
    Makes sense, this does not.

    And more made up stuff.
    First, the involvement of the Jedi WOULD become known if they had managed to get the TF to back off from the blockade. So Valorum has ZERO reason to think that the Jedi doing this would be kept a secret.
    Why would the TF not mention that the Jedi were there?
    Second, the basic fact is that two jedi went to Naboo, WITHOUT senate approval.
    So the Jedi can do things without asking the senate.
    Third, the mission that Valorum sent the Jedi on is totally different from what they are doing now.
    That was a negotiation, this will be fighting.

    Again, the Jedi did not know this when they left Coruscant, they didn't know if the Gungan army was still free or that they would help them.

    Nope, there is no tension.
    The Jedi bring along a small kid.
    Either a) the Jedi do think that this is dangerous and people could die. But this makes them reckless and uncaring, who puts a small child at risk for no reason.
    Or b) the Jedi think this will be a walk in the park and so safe that small kid can be there without risk.
    And thus no tension.

    Or c) the council send Qui-Gon to Naboo with the hope that he and Anakin dies so they don't have to bother with his nonsense about the prophecy or train this dangerous boy.

    Quite a lot of made up stuff just from the Jedi seeing Obi-Wan be attacked.
    And it is also really stupid on the part of the Jedi.
    They know that Obi-Wan was attacked when sending a signal.
    So they know that the seps know that they caught a Jedi spy on their planet and this spy sent a signal.
    Did they hear what Obi-Wan said, quite possibly, they were close enough.
    Or they intercepted his signal.
    Either way, they would know that the Jedi/republic is aware of what they are doing.
    So they would be on alert.
    Also, sensors, the seps can spot the Jedi ship before they could even land.
    So the Jedi thinking they could surprise the seps is very stupid.

    As was said, Luke is the only Jedi around, they did not have hundreds of Jedi to pull from.
    In the OT, the good guys are very much lacking in manpower and resources and have to make do with what they have.
    In the PT, this is not the case.

    1) This is important because????
    2) Since you seem unaware of this, the Geonosians can FLY and so they can fly up and out of the arena and enter it FROM THE OUTSIDE.
    So guarding the entrances would accomplish jack and ****.

    Not all, as we see some droids up in the stands.
    And this again makes the Jedi tactic retarded.
    They don't guard all of the entrances so guarding some is totally pointless.
    And they don't even guard the entrance that Mace came out of. Keeping Dooku and co from fleeing that way or stopping help from coming is very basic common sense. So no wonder that the Jedi don't think of it.

    Destroy an army that massively outnumbers you, in an enclosed area?
    Very not smart.
    And saving Padme, so they would waste hundreds of Jedi to save one senator?
    Again, why was only two needed in TPM?
    By your own argument, two jedi can stop the military blockade and the TF army from killing Padme.
    So have a couple of Jedi down there to save Padme.
    It would be simple, have some lift her up, while a couple more cover them.
    Once she is out, jump after her.

    Or rather, he read the script.

    ????
    They did make a hyperspace jump.
    And unlike ANH, it seems that they didn't enter coordinates before they jumped as they jumped and then decided to go to Tattoine as the engine was leaking.
    So the TF would now know where the ship went.

    [/QUOTE]

    Again, the TF does now know where Padme went. She could have gone in any direction. And even if we assume that they know that the ship was damaged, which they never say. How far the ship can go and in what direction is also unknown.
    Space is kind of big.

    Bye.
    Old Stoneface
     
  24. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    In Legends IIRC not really-they knew there was a sith present but their investigation of the issue didn't really begin until during the clone wars. It wasn't until Obi Wan told Yoda a Sith was manipulating the Republic the Jedi looked at the issue more closely. Also in Legends they didn't think Palpatine was the Sith-they thought it was one of his close advisors or members of his inner circle.
     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    He saw a guy with a Lightsaber. He doesn't know a Sith from shinola. All he saw was an armed combatant attacking his friend. And he wasn't present when Qui-gon told the Council about Maul. He is only present later on, when he sees the duel and has learned about the Sith from the second Council meeting. At that point, he tells the Council what he saw.

    Let's review.

    1. Darth Maul defeats two Jedi in battle on Naboo.

    2. Darth Tyranus defeats two Jedi on Geonosis.

    3. Darth Sidious kills three Jedi Masters in his office.

    4. Rey and Ben take out a dozen Praetorian guards.

    So, how does having multiple fighters prove to be advantageous?

    Only after Yoda dies. Before he dies, there are two Jedi. A Master and a Padawan.

    A Temple is not necessary to convene the Council. They can convene anywhere. The Council met on Naboo with Obi-wan and Anakin, for instance.

    Weaker than him, but stronger than Obi-wan and Qui-gon.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    And twenty four years later, the Sith were wiped out.

    The transmission was sent to the Queen's ship, but a response is necessary to establish a connection trace. Meaning that they could locate them on Tatooine, but not their precise location. Hence the need for probes. As to the Federation, they had failed Palpatine which is why he sent Maul out and kept them on Naboo.

    Not really. The item would still be paid for and it would fall to Watto to come up with a solution to trade the credits for local currency. Thus it wouldn't be stealing. Watto didn't want to do that which is why Qui-gon had to find another solution.

    Chancellor Valorum did not exert control over the Council. He had asked Sifo-Dyas to go to Oba-Diah to handle the Pyke Syndicate and didn't inform the Council of his decision. And he asked the Council to send two Jedi to Naboo, which they agreed to do. He did not do what Palpatine did, which was get the Senate to vote to give him more power and control over the Jedi Council and Valorum did not appoint a Jedi to the Council.

    You miss the point. The films have always done "stupid" things like sending a small group of people to handle an impossible situation and come out on top. All of them have done it.

    I didn't pull it out of my ass. It is based on what Lucas wrote.

    That's not the same as leading an army against the Federation's forces and later leading a Clone Army against the Separatist's forces. The following was cut from the film, but shows us how it worked.

    MACE: "Protect the Queen, but do not intercede if it comes to war until we have the Senate's approval."

    YODA: "May the Force be with you."

    You watched the film, didn't you? It worked, didn't it?

    The Jedi are also aware that Padme must have a plan, in order for her to decide to return to Naboo instead of staying and waiting for the system to work itself out. Qui-gon is only filled in once they're en-route. And as we see in the film, the Jedi don't fight alone against the Droid Army in the palace as they have help.

    He prevented the Jedi from continuing on to the throne room.

    Not making things up. If Padme wanted the help of the Jedi in negotiating a settlement, she could invite them to help.

    But you have no problem swallowing the BS of the OT and the ST? Makes sense this does not.

    The Federation are cowards who would go home and lick their wounds without putting up a fight. Much less confess to the Senate that they were doing illegal actions. It is only when the Federation does things that they wouldn't normally do, that Qui-gon realizes someone's helping them. That's why Qui-gon tells Valorum that the situation was more serious than they first thought.

    Right and by that point, Valorum cannot do anything and the Jedi can only do what they can.

    Right, which is why they aren't told until they're en-route. They only know that she has some type of plan.

    It's "A". Remember, Padme called Qui-gon's decisions on Tatooine reckless. Qui-gon also tells Anakin to stay behind him and then in the N-1. As to Anakin being allowed to go, there was dialogue cut out.

    YODA: "Young Skywalker's fate will be decided later."

    QUI-GON: "I brought Anakin here; he must stay in my charge. He has nowhere else to go."

    MACE WINDU: "He is your ward, Qui-Gon...we will not dispute that."

    YODA: "Train him not. Take him with you, but train him not!"

    1. Obi-wan tells Dooku that he is there searching for a bounty hunter. The Council knows that he will tell them that and believe that it might be enough.

    2. The transmission is scrambled, so they wouldn't know what Obi-wan said in his message to Coruscant.

    3. Only a Droideka was sent to capture him, so nothing would be heard about what he said in flesh.

    And yet, Obi-wan managed to land and wander around for a while, without being detected. He's only discovered by a sentry who spotted him. The same thing happens with Padme and Anakin, who are only discovered by the Geonosisans in the tunnel leading into the factory.

    And yet, they still manage to pull it off in every film and cartoon series.

    They fly up and then come back down to engage the Jedi.

    A few droids come up in to the stands, but most of them were in the arena floor. As to Dooku, they only flee after the Jedi leave. The few Jedi who could have been kept up there, would have been killed anyway.

    They did damage on both sides.

    No, two Jedi working with an army of Gungans and a couple dozen soldiers would protect the Queen and end the Naboo invasion.

    Yet, not that simple, hence it is never done. Lifting her up would make her a clear target. Keeping her on the ground with Anakin, makes it difficult to hit her. That's also part of the reason that Padme and Anakin moving around during the early part of the battle and once that ends, he gets in close to her.

    So did Luke when it came to destroying the Death Star.

    Nope. @1:39, the ship does not go into hyperspace.



    And apparently they could detect any external leaking of the hyperdrive. That's why there is no calculations for a jump to hyperspace. That's why we don't see the external visual effects for hyperspace jumps during this part of the film.

    They cannot trace them on their own, but if Qui-gon made an attempt either in the Queen's ship, or from an AT&AT phone booth, they'd be traced as well. No scrambling system like the Jedi have on their ships.