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PT Did the Jedi truly come first?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Sitara, Mar 27, 2013.

  1. Sitara

    Sitara Jedi Master star 3

    Oct 8, 2001
    (This topic could fit the ST and Saga forums as well. I'm posting it here because the word Sith was mentioned only in the PT thus far)

    The EU states the Sith were formed by a Rogue Jedi/Fallen Jedi/Dark Jedi who turned away from the Order and embraced the Dark Side, starting his own tradition.

    The movies do not mention who came first.

    Does it not make sense that the Sith should come first? Or at least, that the first Force User was a Dark Sider and not a Light Sider? Because the Dark Side is more seductive, easier and faster to grasp, and gives more power sooner. Furthermore the emotions powering the Dark Side are more intense, and more addictive (and also somewhat contagious IMO)

    So, what if it was the Sith that was the original order, and it was a rogue Sith who betrayed the Order who formed the Jedi, which resulted in an everlasting enmity between the two Orders?
  2. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Sep 16, 2005
    My understanding is that the Jedi arose as a meditative group and so I think it quite plausible they arose first and as they got more involved with the outside world, the lure of power started, eventually leading to the first Sith.
    SkywalkerJedi02 and DARTHSHAME like this.
  3. Lord Chazza

    Lord Chazza Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 4, 2013
    Well I suppose if you suddenly discovered you had massive superpowers you never knew about before your first reaction would be to try and learn more about it. Only afterwards would you think wow I can shoot lightning bolts at all those people that get on my nerves at times and while I'm at it i can take over the entire galaxy and rule with an iron fist.

    That's my unscientific take on it.
    DarthRelaxus likes this.
  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Sep 2, 2012
    In the Dawn of the Jedi series, the Je'daii make use of both the light and the dark side- and seek to maintain a balance between the two.

    The Rakata, however, tend to primarily use the dark side.

    Then there's the Celestials- which I think are left fairly vague.

    All of which were around tens of thousands of years before the first Sith.
  5. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Sep 30, 2012
    The TPM novelization explains the non-EU history of the Sith.
  6. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Sep 2, 2012
    And the EU managed to incorporate it without chucking out everything that had previously been written.
    Rawne likes this.
  7. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Master star 4

    Feb 5, 2012
    The general story definately follows what's been shown onscreen. I think that it was thought of by the filmmakers, but there's just no place for it in the movies.
  8. Prodigy_Knight

    Prodigy_Knight Jedi Youngling star 1

    Mar 10, 2013
    The DS does seem very easy to access, I'll grant you that and correct me if I'm mistaken but don't monastic orders spring up only when societyhas reached a certain level of civilization before that there would be force-using witch doctors shamans etc who I'd see more as proto-Sith.
  9. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    It makes sense that originally the earliest Force Users would be out for themselves and without a code slide towards the dark side...but that doesn't make them Sith. Remember the distinction between a Sith Lord and a Dark Jedi, the Sith have a tradition, a code and a goal. The original Sith, formed by Ajunta Pall were born from defeat and humiliation at the hands of the Jedi, and work for millennia to exact their revenge. I think as a story that works perfectly.

    DARTHSHAME Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 19, 2003
    This is my understanding as well.
  11. Kev Snowmane

    Kev Snowmane Jedi Knight star 3

    Jan 1, 2013
    There were actually signs of trouble very early on.

    In the Essential Guide to Warfare, a Dark Side user from the ancient days that was found in Force Stasis talks about how the proto-Jedi Order began to become bureaucratic and autocratic, telling others what could and could not be studied and trying to force it's will on all other Force traditions.
  12. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

    Jan 30, 2013
    If the force is just an aspect of nature and a product of life, that means it has always been around. People would have been using it before either group, since a time before history.
  13. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Sep 30, 2012
    Of course. I just felt like the OP was asking for non-EU information.
  14. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Nov 15, 2004
    The Sith Order emerged from the Jedi Order. But dark side using Sith (as in members of the species) were a thing as early as 30,000 BBY, five millennia before the Jedi Order was founded.
    kubricklynch and DarthRelaxus like this.
  15. bstnsx704

    bstnsx704 Jedi Master star 3

    Mar 11, 2013
    The Force always was.
    The midi-chlorians came before the Jedi or the Sith.
    Whether the Jedi or the Sith order was established first is irrelevant, as they both merely represent different ideals and methods of utilizing the Force. While it does make sense to assume that the Sith branched off of the Jedi due to differing opinions, its not too far fetched to think that they were created completely independent of each other.
  16. Death T

    Death T Jedi Knight star 1

    Nov 12, 2012
    Wouldn't that too be considered EU since it didn't appear in the movie itself? Even if it is in the film's novelization.
  17. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Sep 30, 2012
    No, because Lucas summarized the same information in an interview and told Terry Brooks (the novelization author) most of the history included in the novelization.
  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Sep 2, 2012
    The usual answer from "movies-only fans" is

    "If it's not in the movie, even if Lucas states it outright, it doesn't count"

    Which seems to me a little strange.
    Kev Snowmane likes this.
  19. Kev Snowmane

    Kev Snowmane Jedi Knight star 3

    Jan 1, 2013
    It's VERY strange, esp given that Lucas himself (through Sansweet, et al) established the hierarchy of canon.

    Never mind the daft notion that the author has no idea what he/she intended, which is the heart of the notion that "film trumps author statement".
  20. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    We should also bear in mind that Lucas sometimes makes what can be seen as contradictory statements as to his intent, so that the idea that 'well, George Lucas said' can often be followed by an argument that 'but he also said here, that..'

    In truth there is no real answer to a question like this, which is, I think, what makes the discussion boards worth visiting, because of the conjecture and the arguments that brings forward. I think, personally, that the OP raises some interesting points.
  21. Kev Snowmane

    Kev Snowmane Jedi Knight star 3

    Jan 1, 2013
    I'm not disagreeing with that. My comment was solely directed at Iron Lord's comment about "movie only" canonistas.
  22. fenixbg

    fenixbg Jedi Youngling

    Mar 29, 2013
    I think in KOTOR 1 is mentioned that Sith were a race.. Jedai order probably was first in Republic known space-but who is first is not clear.-In Clone wars in episode when Ahsoka is resurected,there were immortal(almost) brother and sister,and their father... None side is older... That is point of fight of good and evil... In books...
  23. Kev Snowmane

    Kev Snowmane Jedi Knight star 3

    Jan 1, 2013
    The original Sith were indeed a race. When a large group of Dark Jedi schismed from the Order and set off into space to follow their own path they found the Sith (race) and interbred with them. These Dark Jedi and their hybrid offspring were the rootstock of the Sith Order.
    fenixbg and darklordoftech like this.
  24. SkywalkerJedi02

    SkywalkerJedi02 Jedi Knight star 1

    Jul 3, 2013
    Well I believe that people were just born with the force inside them and some chose to use it for good and the others for evil.
    Aegon Starcaster likes this.
  25. Aegon Starcaster

    Aegon Starcaster Jedi Knight star 3

    Jun 27, 2013
    Indeed. What we've learned from the movies, and at least 50% of all the Star Wars literature out there,
    is that being a jedi did not make someone inherently good. And having the force does not mean a person will
    be drawn to do evil things either.

    What we can be certain of, is good and evil have existed for as long as there has been sentient life, and the force
    has probably existed for as long as there has been any life at all. Even if the jedi were first, I'm sure there were jedi
    who lived and died in harmony with the force, and there were jedi who sought to dominate the force.