did the prequels make the OT look more clunky?

I always feel the respective technology works for the respective trilogies. The OT isn't set in alot of Dynamic, high traffic areas. The PT was. Coruscant using OT technology would have not been as vibrant and alive. They never could have pulled off the appearance of a city that populated. Everything is pretty idyllic and grand in scale, almost to the point of being dreamlike. The OT is more personal and focuses on individuals more than masses. This gives a more microscopic view and makes things look more real and dirty. Works well in the settings. I wouldn't want a PT that looks like the OT and I wouldn't want an OT that looks like the PT.

Carnage

 

Carnage- great post!

 

Funny, I feel the exact opposite. I have always prefered the puppet aliens to the computer generated ones, they do feel more real and I love the scenes in Jabbas Palace because of it. It's also another reason why I am a muppet fan and think the Jim Henson people as being a deserving part of the Star Wars circle.

But even though I prefer all the other aliens as puppets over CGI, for some reason I fell in love with the CGI Yoda, he is much cooler, realistic and easier to connect with then the puppet and I'm hoping Lucas takes care of the puppet Yoda in Episode I. I do like the Old Trilogy Yoda better than his role in the prequels, but because of his lines, the wisdom he shares with Luke. The wisdom isn't tainted if he's computer generated.

 

It does work. But consider that Lucas has freely admitted that the stories in the OT were crafted specifically with the film technology of the times in mind. Had he been able to, we might have had stories in vast sprawling metropolis type environments.

Me personally .... I just want them to look the same.

 

My feeling is that they can NEVER look the same. Look at the progression of technology even inside the trilogies. You can't tell me that ANH and RoTJ look the same and you can't tell me the original TPM (With Puppet Yoda) and RoTS look the same. The only way to hold consistency in looks over many movies is to do what Peter Jackson did....Film all the movies at one time and release them in a tight span of years. Between the time of the original shots for TPM and the finishing touches on ROTS was probably (Just a guess) 8 years! (1997-2005). Think of the changes in computers and graphics from 97-05. In 97 you probably were playing games on an 8 MB PCI (Or Vesa-Local Bus) video card. In 2005 you have a 256 MB DDR DirectX 9 3d graphics accelerator. To make them look the same Lucas would have to grab an all new set of actors, bring them together, do a shooting for every film at one time, edit them all at one time, and begin to release them in rapid succession without laying a hand on a single one after the first one hit the theatres.

Now look at when filming for ANH started (Probably 1976) filming compared to the end of RoTS (2005). A mind boggling 31 years. In 1976 your COMPUTER (If you were geeky enough to be soldering junk parts together in your garage) wouldn't have 8 MB of RAM, much less a graphics card. Using Computers to render the battle of Yavin would have looked Like a game of "Combat" on the big screen.

Carnage

 

Lucas is replacing the puppet Yoda in EpI with a CG version.

I was watching the "making of" DVD for EpIII and they show the "Fear is the path to the dark side" bit from EpI, and it was clearly done with a CG Yoda. It looked great too.

 

I feel it is possible if the entire series revisits post production. Most of the principal photography for ep 5 and 6 are just as clear and precise as principal photography in Ep 2 and 3. Episode 1 is a bit grainy and Ep 4 doesn't have the same color rendering quality as the others. Technology in digital color rendering allow for touch ups in everything from shadows, light sources and color. This means that odl footage with badly rendored SFX elements can be cleaned up and reworked to near perfect clarity and definition. The work done in the Jabba scene in Ep 4 shows that digital elements are now capable of being added nearly seamlessly to old stock footage. Since all the films have been released in a digitally upgraded format, all of these images; frame for frame are immediately accessable for editing. The standard set by ROTS is not that far to reach for Ep 1 and Ep 2. The post production elements of the OT would need refining and Ep 4 would need the biggest overhaul. If any of the films couldn't be matched up to the others it would be episode 4 but I could forgive that if every effort was made to try. Even then the only 'possibly' unfixable elements in Ep 4 is the slightly inferier focus capabilities of the cameras used in filming it.

If the series is to be seen as one film like Lucas tells us, then it seems to me that the series should look like one film. Granted actors age in the series but that has always been written into the long gaps of time between episodes; unlike the Lord of the Rings which is a continuous

 

I think you are exactly right. Lucas works his films over like software updates.

First we had the OT. Then in the mid 90's he went back and restored the original footage, and fixed the color and sound for release on VHS. Then he added CG elements and released it in the theaters as the "SPecial Edition". Then reworked the CG and did more work on the color for the DVD release.

He's not done with these movies. Lucas is going to give the OT a major overhaul to make them fit better with the PT films. He's upped the standard so much with the PT, he pretty much has to rework the OT.

I heard Rick McCallum mention something about a "Revised edition" on the EpIII supplemental DVD. Does anybody know anything about this?

 

There's no way you can have the OT and PT the same unless you remake the OT (blasphemy IMHO).

I think it's a shame that people are so focused on the effects of the OT when it was more than the effects that caught people's immaginations in the first place. Are folk so FX focused that they're missing the story, plot and soul of the films? Whilst we might coo at the FX of the PT, I feel they lack the warmth and depth of the OT; and besides, our FX expectations are going to get higher as the years pass giving Lucas no end to hack away at the PT as well the OT. Where will it end?
I agree with those who said the imperfections of the OT made it seem more real and authentic - they did. Human movements, even Frank Oz's manipulations of the original Yoda puppet, aren't perfectly and continuously smooth and CGI has yet to capture that truly realistic movement.

The OT were and are special for reasons that go way beyond the whiz-bangs, and it's these reasons that I think Lucas underestimated in the PT.

 

It makes it look infinitely better in comparison VISUALLY, but the only acting really going for the prequels was from Ian McDiarmid. Everyone else sounded wooden and choreographed. I'm 16, and even I have a nostalgia factor for the original trilogy VHS copies my dad has the second I pop them in to watch. I feel that the CGI in the PT was appropriate given the changing times, but that the altercation of the OT just to make up for mistakes in the PT is unneccessary. What next, altering the Luke-Leia connection to make up for the order of births and Leia's memory? But I digress. I think the PT honored the OT in a 'unique' way by keeping in mind the technology of the time. Other than that, the CGI helped the Clone Troopers look like elite officers who knew what they were doing rather than the loosely organized Storm Troopers who seemed incapable of shooting for beans. Still no valid explanation for it. I just hope Lucas stops doing so many updates to the OT- if he wants to change so much of it, he should just remake them and be done with it. He's not listening to the OT fans, what should stop him? Care for the original fanbase? Don't make me laugh too hard...

 

Not True. The work done in the Special Edition as well as the advances in film editing technology in the last decade make it very possible to make them look the same. Simply re-visit post production. Apply new modernly derived effects over the stock footage and original principal photography elements.

I respect this view. From my perspective though, I see modern effects as merely a tool to enhance the story, plot and soul of the films. The OT is when the story really gets going and for me is the best part of the tale. The pace of the story arc has it developing up until Anakin's turn, then the conflict goes into full gear. I just find it sad that the best part of the story is presented in such a shabby way. That being said, I'd love to have a copy of the original productions for film history and nostalgia reasons. It's really cool to see how film has grown since Star Wars raised the bar on what people thought was possible. I also think that with Star Wars being the principal reason we have such fantastic effects and film technology today, that Star Wars should really benefit from that growth more than any other film or series of films. I have this belief particularly because it's been ILM; and really Lucas; that has broken through the majority of technological barriers in film crafting. I mean ..... the guy is responsible for Pixar even.

Other than our knowledge that most of the things in the Star Wars films are not real, most of the images really look pretty genuine. I admit they are not perfectly precise. But they are real enough to achieve suspension of disbelief. And most of it looks far more realistic than the rubber masks and hand puppets of the original films. But we like these outdated techniques because they have charm in that they achieved something unique and are tied to childhood memories.

Like I said, I'd love to have copies of the originals for fun. But if I was in charge of a modern movie production and I was offered the choice puppets and rubber masks vs. near lifelike digital creature rendering, the choice is hands down digital. In 1999, digital artists couldn't even create lifelike hair very well. Now all one has to do to see the obvious progress is look at Peter Jackson's King Kong.

I haven't even covered how much more lifelike and exciting space battles and explosions could be rendered. Even the land battles in the prequels are much more diverse and complex than in the OT.

When I was a kid, I saw each film one time in the theatre. I liked them but grew older and moved on, I had to, there wasn't a VCR in my house til I was too old to care anymore. Now looking back I see that they were special and part of a fun time in my life; age 7-13. The prequels will experience the same viewing , withdrawel and revisit as time progresses. Generations of kids who saw these films in initial release will check em out again in their 20s and 30s and remember the good ol days o

 

The Prequels made me appreciate the OT more, because the prequels were done so poorly!!

 

I respect what your opinions even if I don't whole-heartedly agree with all of them. I think the point is that amongst our SW fan community there are a plethora of reasons why we've all connected to SW and we're all going to have widely varying and deeply felt opinions, and what Lucas continues to do to the films will spark debate, disappointment and disagreement.

I don't agree that the FX of ANH dominated for adults - not for all. For me, and for a lot of people I know, it was the myth and the characters in the OT that I connected to at a deeply emotional level which, I mourn to say, I didn't have with the PT characters/actors... except for Ewan McGregor's Obi-Wan. Agreed, the FX helped transport me to another realm but I still have that when I watch the OT, even in the face of the improved wonders from Weta Workshop and ILM.

There is an essence or quality to the OT that isn't down to how flash the whiz-bangs are. I don't think the OT can look like the PT - and if GL does achieve that it could be at the expence of OT's original (and continuing) charm.

Don't fix what ain't broke, I say, and for me the OT certainly aren't broke, regardless of 1970's FX limitations.

But I agree with you, the untouched, original OT should be made available.

 

I agree. The effects just helped bring us into the story. They're not the story themselves. And all those things they added to the OT didn't necessarily improve the movie. Simply adding CGI explosions and such is more like adding sprinkles, not essential. And in some cases, GL partially ruined the movies by adding too much CGI. That band sequence in ROTJ? ugh.
The guy on the scooter scaring that monster in ANH? unnecessary.
I think the only CGI additions that really worked was when the background in Cloud City was touched up, opening up panels on the walls and such when Lando, Han and crew walk by. But that highlights how CGI should be used. Primarily as background or touching up, or doing things that otherwise couldn't be done.
As for the clone troopers, I understand why they used CGI, but they still never nailed down the look of the visors. They look fake. More so in AOTC, but still a bit in ROTS, especially when we see the two clone troopers nod when trying to sneak up on Yoda.
No matter how good CGI has become, it still can't replace that feeling of when actors are on an actual set, and get visual feedback/stimuli.
There are numerous scenes in the prequels, where you just know that they're standing in a sea of blue or green with a bunch of dots as their only visual frame of reference.
Some scenes, namely in the PT, feel like they're from a high school production with amateurs, no offense to high school productions...

 

For me the enjoyment comes in thinking of the movies from a chronological point of view: The OT doesn't look "clunky"...it looks like a galaxy under the thumb of oppression. The PT therefore looks like a clean, shiny, HONEST time to live in...if you get my meaning. The effects IMO reflect that from PT to OT.

I find that when I start getting technical about the effects, and stop concentrating on the actual story and the enhancement the FX are supposed to give, then the thrill is gone ya' dig?

 

(heh heh) So true!
Particularly some of the romantic scenes in the PT (cringe).