Saga Did the PT change the way you see the OT, or not ?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Ord-Mantell70, Oct 27, 2011.

  1. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Question says it all.

    Has the release of the PT modified the way you saw and felt the OT before, and sort of really added an interesting new dimension and perspective to the first 3 movies in your opinion ?

    In other words, do you really see the 6 movies as a whole and cohesive Saga ? Does the PT merge well with the CT and influence it to you ?

    For me, the answer is clearly no. I cannot bring myself to experience the OT otherwise than the way it was before the PT came out. these remain 2 separate series.

    Just raising the subject, as I do remember that it was of the things that G.Lucas wanted more or less to instil through the new films.

    Just share.
  2. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    In many ways.

    For instance, Padme's dying words (?There is good in him. I know there's still...?) goes a long way towards justifying what had previously been one of my main ROTJ sticking points: Luke's enthusiasm for redeeming Vader. Before ROTS, Luke's messianic fervor carried little to no psychological validity; now, there is at least an answer...he's his mother's son, possessed, in some sense, by Padme's spirit.

    Where once he was a schmuck, he is now an Amidala...
  3. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    A few small things.

    The scene in ESB when Vader is in his meditation chamber has been ruined for me, because now I just think he goes in there to cry.

    I didn't much like Kenobi in the OT, but he and Yoda are the most sympathetic characters in the PT imo. It adds a little sorrow to Yoda's line of "old friends long gone".

    No. If this was his endeavor, Lucas failed here imo.
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    A lot. I look for characteristics of Anakin and Padme in Luke and Leia, and have found many of them, up to and including Luke having his mother's heart. (I think Vader saw this, too, at least by the Endor scenes in ROTJ.)

    Obi-Wan's discussion of the Clone Wars, the Jedi, and Anakin himself have taken on new meaning. And even more, every mention of the Empire takes on new meaning now that we know how the Empire was formed. And Yoda--"Wars make not one great" as well as many of his other sayings seem very different after seeing him in the prequels.

    I also see Owen and Beru Lars, and Tatooine itself, differently.

    A big one: the scene in which Alderaan blows up was always sad; it's even sadder after seeing Bail Organa in the prequels.
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  5. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Not all that much, as a lot of the resonance of the backstory was already there, that's why it worked so well. It would have been a massive, massive ask for the PT to really add any further dimension to the OT itself, it only really served the purpose of answering a few questions about details. It works fine as a separate story leading into another one, but it doesn't exactly transform it.

    That said, ROTS did flesh out the character of Anakin/Vader by finally answering the question we all asked for two decades - exactly why did he turn to the Dark Side? Whether or not you agree with it being a Faustian bargain, as opposed to the simpler concept of him being seduced by power, it did work, IMHO, & also made his turn back in ROTJ that much more credible. He turned to save his wife & unborn child, killed his wife in the process (the final nail in Anakin Skywalker's coffin), then is given a second chance to save the life of the son he turned evil for in the first place. That particular aspect comes full circle very nicely.
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  6. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    The idea that the Empire was applauded when it began was never really made clear in the OT. That moment changed Star Wars forever.
  7. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    How do you know he has working tear ducts left?
  8. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Sometimes, to both. It really depends of my mood.
  9. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Let me respond with this:

    :p
  10. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Interesting to see that some of you had trouble with the fact that either Luke believes Vader can be redeemed, or Vader eventually turning back to the good side in the end.

    In that sense, Padme's last words on Anakin before dying, along with Anakin's pledge to the dark side to save his wife and children, indeed help making it more believable.

    Personally I never had much trouble with that. Always more or less accepted that Vader learning he had a son between ANH and ESB was enough to progressively bring the good side buried inside him back to the surface. And that Luke somehow could feel it, unlike Obi-Wan and Yoda.

    Moreover, Regarding Padme's death in ROTS, I've never been able to erase the fact that, back in the OT days, Vader's wife was supposed to have survived long after the events of Episode III. To me it sort of belongs to the OT story, and I always thought it was way more dramatic, tragic, and emotional. That's still the way I see things when watching ROTJ. But that's another topic...
  11. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Apr 26, 2009
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    The contradiction/plot hole regarding Padme/Mother Skywalker surviving past the events of ROTS remains, but I still like the idea that Anakin turned to save not only his beloved wife, but the unborn child as well. I always had the belief that he was somehow responsible for Mother Skywalker's death (which was borne out in ROTS), but my theory was that he would kill her almost exactly the way Palpatine was killing Luke in ROTJ, or allow Palps to do it & stand by, letting it happen. Witnessing it happen again would be the impetus for his turn back to the Light Side.

    The idea that he turned to the Dark Side to save not only his wife, but their child as well, then to witness that very child being murdered by his evil master, makes it perfectly credible that he might snap & throw all the power in the galaxy aside to prevent the greatest loss of his life happening again. It did work, & it finally explained just why he turned back - something not wholly explained in ROTJ on its own. Prior to the PT being made, most (including GL himself) probably assumed that Vader never realised that he had offspring until after the events of ANH. Establishing his knowledge of a son or daughter on the way in Ep III plants the seed for his redemption, while allowing Padme to die.
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  12. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    "The backstory intrigued me because it kind of turns the whole series on its head" - G.Lucas (The greatest story ever told - R.Burke - 2005).

    Among others...
  13. DantheJedi Force Ghost

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    Aug 23, 2009
    star 5
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I did not want Anakin to be in any way responsible for his wife's death, and I was disappointed that Lucas decided to go that route. I was hoping that Palpatine would be responsible and somehow frame the Jedi for it.

    However, I did always think that Anakin would turn in order to save someone, and I thought that it was a good possibility that he would turn in order to save his wife, unborn child, or both.
  15. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    The PT is the main reason I even Bothered to watch the OT. Before the PT, the OT was just a nerdy movie that I was not interested in mainly because of the types of people that were fans of it. I saw ROTJ as a kid...it was ok, but when I saw TPM in 99, that's what hooked me and made me interested in the STORY of how the man that was unmasked by luke skywalker is this little pod racer boy. i wanted to see how the dots got connected. If not for TPM, I would have never saw ANH & ESB...and seeing ROTJ in a different light.
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  16. princethomas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2001
    star 2
    For me its a huge YES to all questions.

    Someone mentioned already the line "old friends, long gone" Thats so powerful now. We understood it before. We see that Yoda is sad and we know there were Jedi before. But now WE are sad WITH him. Thats the root of most of what I like better it adds so much depth in that way. "Powerful Jedi was he...Powerful Jedi...(sigh)" That stuff is amazing now.

    In addition to what was said about Luke possessing Padme's strong belief in Vader's goodness, he also posesses her personal strength. Its to some degree why Luke would not give in to hate and anger. Much is made of the "too much of his father in him" but now I know his mother. I like his mother. I see in him things of his mother. He has as much Padme in him as Anakin, and that is why he won't succumb to hate and fall like Anakin did.

    Also, I firmly stand by the fact that it in no plot hole with regard to their mother dying at childbirth. IF you watch it in number order. 2 things deal with when she dies. 1. Where we actually see her die, and 2. when Leia says her foggy memory made up feelings and images tells her Padme died when she was very young. Who ya gonna believe. Seriously if you go into Jedi already having seen Padme die. Then what Leia says fits right in. She's totally force sensative coming from the most powerful Jedi ever. It makes total sense that she mistakes some kind of Force visions for memories. Having dealt and actually seen force visions in ROTS and Luke's in Empire. This fits perfectly and is no big deal. Its only if you go into ROTS with Leias words as your base of knowledge to you get screwed up by it.
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  17. PTisgreat Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Oh yes it changed the way I see the OT movies, as it opened up the universe from small story to a grand story.

    When you watch the OT now, you cant help but see the Stormtroopers come barging in on Tantive IV and think they were created on Kamino. You cant help but see The Emperor in Jedi and think this guy was only a Senator before he rose to power. You can't help but see Yoda now and how he once had the center stage in the Jedi Temple, being relegated to hiding in isolation on Dagobah.

    That is the beauty of the 6 movies now, as that you can still watch the OT in the context of the OT, or the context of the saga.
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  18. Grand_Moff_Jawa Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 5
    I try as hard as I can, but I just cannot see Hayden under the mask in the OT. Darth Vader in the OT was mysterious and truly evil. Hayden's Vader was just an angst-ridden youth on a personal vendetta against anyone who hurt his feelings. The OT and PT feel like two totally different sets of movies. Visually, audibly, acted, directed, they couldn't be more different. Trying to link them via story is pretty futile at that point, for me.
  19. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Actually you're right. The OT can now be seen and experienced both ways. But only for those able to get past the strong visual, story-scale and mood disconnections between the 2 trilogies. Which I basically can't, no matter how hard I try. When watching the OT, the backstory remains to me only what was scarcely mentioned and reavealed about it in the films back then, intriguing and mysterious as it was, regardless of what has been eventually shown in detail in the PT. I just can't "feel" the OT another way.

    Really funny how people's mindset and approach can be regarding those movies.

    Largely concur, except I don't see PT Hayden's Vader exactly the same way as you do...Although I too cannot see him under the mask in the OT.

    Anyway trying to merge 2 series of films made 20 years apart is actually a daunting challenge, unless the latest is specifically made to closely resemble the first in terms of filmmaking technics, visuals, and general story mood. Which G.Lucas admitedly didn't care much about all along. Even in 1979-1980, when the PT concept really emerged, was it already envisioned as a much different type of movie set aesthetically and storywise.

    G.Lucas, with the PT, was mainly interested in telling a story he felt strongly emotionally connected with, but using the new technology available, allowing him to visually implement what he couldn't and was frustrated with when crafting the OT in the late 70's. Thus leading to huge stylistic differences. To say the least...
  20. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    The saga works a lot like a before and after picture. A great deal of fans miss that point. The PT is SUPPOSED to be different from the OT.
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  21. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    You do realize that the only guy to give him a tongue-lashing in the OT was Admiral Motti, and Vader took the slight so personally that he broke up his boss's conference in order to strangle him?

    That's totally Hayden.
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  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    There is this...

    Additionally, there is the fact that the OT was set 18 years later than the PT. How many 41-year-olds behave the same way they did when they were 23? Even without Anakin's descent into insanity in ROTS, he would be very different in ANH than in ROTS, and he should be.

    As far as Vader being "mysterious" prior to the prequels, to me part of the point of the prequels was to take away that mysteriousness. And while I saw him as "truly evil" in ANH and most of ESB, I stopped seeing him that way in ROTJ.
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  23. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Agree.

    The one thing that was in the end really mysterious and fascinating, along with Mother Skywalker's unknown character, was how and why Anakin Skywalker had been seduced by the dark side and became Darth Vader. Still it's true Vader somehow displays a certain sense of mystery till the end of ROTJ, basically due to the chilling mask and the artificial voice device he dons.

    Indeed in ROTJ, and even at the end of ESB to me, he cannot be seen anymore as this purely evil character.

    To me, The Emperor was the most mysterious and intriguing protagonist of the OT.
  24. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    I agree with the comment it depends on (my) mood. When I'm watching the OT I kind of alternate between connecting the six and not. Some stuff that stands out...
    -Vader and Obi-Wan's duel in ANH. It completely matches ROTS and Mustafar for me. I also like that Vader states "now I am the Master" as if he is admitting Kenobi bested him in Revenge of the Sith.
    -The Rebels and Seperatists from Vader's POV. It's like he is still fighting a personal war that goes back as far as the Clone Wars.
    -Vader's perception of Luke in Empire Strikes Back, and in Return of the Jedi. While this was mostly achieved when we first heard "I am your father", I see a new layer added from the prequels. The moment after their Bespin duel, when Luke chooses to fall rather than join him, I can see Anakin in him now. The way he stands there frozen with his hand outreached, since the prequels he looks totally cut [face_laugh]
    -I also see Anakin in Luke, particularly in ESB. His slight cockiness when he faces Vader for example... "You'll find I'm full of surprises", although I think Luke reaches a level in ROTJ that transcends anything Anakin ever achieved. Anakin and Luke's relationship with R2. Defeating Dooku and Vader through anger. There is so much more.
    -The Empire. Seeing the Empire at full strength is, I think, a great benefit of watching the movies one to six. When you have seen the Jedi wiped out, and the public's general acceptance of the Empire at first, killing Luke's foster parents and destroying Alderaan take on whole new meaning. The meeting on the deathstar in ANH, where it mentions the Imperial Senate has been disbanded, and where we are seeing the way things in the Empire are generally run, is a great bit of continuity.
    -The Darkside. The way the events in the movies play out is all very ironic. For example, Luke and Yoda's exchange;
    "Master Yoda, you can't die." "Strong am I with the force. But not that strong." is very relevant considering after Ep3, this is actually something the darkside offers. Also, the background of a Jedi turned by passion makes The Emperor's attempted seduction of Luke, and Luke's other trials, reach an entirely different level of meaning. Luke, like Anakin with Padme, fails to rescue his friends in ESB.
    -Many lines with new meaning. "Only now, at the end, do you understand." is a great line with more movies leading up to it. Gives me a funny feeling :p

    One thing I think is a weakness in the smoothness of connecting the trilogies is how long Vader/Anakin takes to save Luke from the Emperor. He seems to take too long to intervene considering similar passion turned him to the darkside in the first place. But it is a minor complaint.
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  25. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Really?

    I thought it was James Earl Jones.:p

    Vader handled that too smoothly to be Hayden. Hayden would have said "Don't make me kill you" instead of coolly pointing out Motti's disturbing lack of faith. Hayden would have cried about it later, telling Tarkin that Motti was "holding him back". We would have heard Vader whining about how unfair Motti was being for the rest of the movie.