Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Ord-Mantell70, Oct 27, 2011.
. (accidental post)
Nice. Although I would figure that after 20 years of being a Sith, not to mention Sidious' apprentice, and spending all that time killing off the Jedi, he would become numb to things like that and simply...choke someone, without much ado about it.
Did the PT change my view of the OT? In some ways, yes. I can see how they are meant to fit together - and with many of the changes made to the OT, this is quite explicit. I guess you could say in those cases, the PT literally changed how I physically see the OT.
But nothing can fully replace the impressions I had formed of the PT era and the wider SW universe in the time before the prequels came out. These include things like a SW galaxy card depicting a young Ben Kenobi, a pre-production photo from TPM showing what turned out to be Watto's box at the podrace area but which I took at the time to be a place where Kenobi would train Jedi apprentices, including Anakin, notions of what the Jedi were like and what the PT timeline would be like from certain EU sources... Certain elements of the prequels, like Qui-Gon Jinn (both his look and his general way of doing things), the generally 'olden-timey' feel of the designs in TPM, Mandalorian armor, the lava planet, etc, were easy to incorporate into my mental SW galaxy, as they interlocked very well with my expectations based on what had come before. As I said, on one level I can accept what the saga has become... but on a second level it will always be something else, something more personal.
Ok. First off, I would never say you are wrong. It is to you what it is, and thats great, and how it should be. But I go back to what I said about expectations. And not, expecting something great and being dissappointing. Expecting how things would look and feel. How they would be. When we had no real reason to even think we knew that. You point out some photos and things so thats fine.
But ultimately people simply refuse to let go of the notions they created all on their own, and somehow they blame the PT for not going that way.
Did I blame the PT for anything? No. It is what it is. Like I said, on one level, I can appreciate that. But it's not going to overwrite my own imagination. The same way I imagined what it would be like to see Ben Kenobi, Annikin Skywalker, and Darth Vader all fight on a volcano, Skywalker get killed, Vader fall in, and then Ben run off into the forest (partially from a story from Mark Hamill). This was after I'd already seen Empire. There's room enough for many different ways of conceptualizing SW.
EDIT: And if there's any sense of 'disappointment' or more accurately 'dissonance' between the OT and the PT for me, I think it actually comes less from any truly idiosyncratic influences on me personally than on the reasonable inferences made by me and others, from the OT, about the PT. Everything can fit, the way it is now; but things like Obi-Wan saying "the Jedi Master who instructed me," were, at the time, taken and almost certainly meant at face value. "Certain Point of View"-type explanations are given for some of the apparent disconnects, and they can work. But those original meanings still feel just as real to me.
Fair enough. You're right in the end. It's pretty dangerous and can often lead to disappointment and misunderstanding. But sometimes I really couldn't avoid imagining and envisioning how those films would look and feel, no matter how hard I tried. We had only a few cryptic backstory elements to deal with, along with general style and tone set by the OT.
But actually for some people, it was enough to expect something that would have matched more closely in terms of visual style and general mood. I guess we can at least put the blame on the fact that the PT was made roughly 20 years after the originals.
That's basically my own position too (apart from the volcano duel scene I had no precise expectations about).
But I'll add that, to me, not everything can fit in a way now : Padme's death at the end of ROTS is clearly contradictory with LeÃ¯a having some rememberance of her real mother in ROTJ. Most people had logically infered that she remained at least some years with her mom to have such memories. That's really the one I can't buy, no matter what explaination you can think of that has been ventured. But that precise point is rather off topic here...
Oh I'm with you; thinking about it, it doesn't feel right to me either. But the explanation I have heard basically boils down to 'the Force did it.' How do you argue with something like that? You can't. It's like hearing someone say the universe was created with everything in place, 30 years ago, and time has only existed since then. There's no way to disprove it. The only thing to do is to point out the assumptions and 'magic' such a view would entail. In the case of Leia's memories of Padme, that 'magic' is literal magic - the Force - and so I guess it's 'buyable,' for what it is. I don't necessarily like it, but there is a mechanism within the films that can work in that manner.
In a sense maybe...
But it's real strange Luke has no memories at all of his mother, no ?
In response to the OP: not exactly changed, but it's impossible to look at ANH Vader's general behaviour and mannerisms and not think of how he is in AOTC & ROTS. Some people mentioned Motti being choked and I think that's an excellent example; he's not choking him for making grievous tactical errors like he would a film later with Ozzel, he's choking him over a personal slight. ANH Vader is boastful and arrogant in a way he isn't in TESB ('When I left you, I was but a learner, now I am the Master', 'This will be a day long remembered....' etc) and ROTJ; it matches up very well with Anakin's personality in AOTC (thinking he already equalled Yoda as a swordsman, thinking he's ahead of Obi-Wan) and ROTS (to a lesser extent, but his arrogance comes out after he turns, IMO).
Strange, no-one ever questions Leia's lack of Force given piloting ability.
She's a good pilot. Remember the twins on Endor?
As good as Anakin or Luke?
As good as Han even?
In getting my Blu-Rays and watching the saga again--in 1-6 order this time--I have more to add.
Luke's comments about how dangerous it was to go out after dark because of the Sandpeople are much more meaningful now that we know what the Sandpeople did to Shmi in the prequels.
Obi-Wan's comment on "I don't seem to remember owning a droid" is so very obviously a cover-up now.
Good one. Very nice.
To be honest, the PT allowed me to appreciate the OT a little more. It also made STAR WARS even more of a very fascinating saga to me.
That's just about it ... in a nutshell.
Being that I ROTJ & TPM first before seeing the others, I view 1-6 as one story Rise & Fall of Palpatine. The Rebels goal was never to kill Darth Vader but to remove Palpatine from office & take power away from him. To me Vader was just one of his agents. All six movies do a great job of connecting & telling the story.
Vader torturing Han Solo in order to lure Luke has become 4000 times more meaningful now. Shmi torture anyone?
The ending of ROTJ has a lot more impact now.
I like the OT better as movies, but I like the environment and atmosphere of the PT better. It's more wordly and not just centered around certain characters. There's the whole Clone Wars going on, or the Trade Fed blockade, etc, and the characters are a small part of a bigger picture. While in the OT, it specifically centered around Luke and his relationship with Vader. There isn't as much stuff going on around that.
The PT has more planets, more species, and I really love how they portrayed Coruscant.
The PT was a little more real in the sense of there actually being politics and society outside the characters
Thanks to Episodes I, II and III, I see much more clearly that Darth Vader is more than just a great villain who turns good in the end. He is a very tragic part of Anakin's life, a big disappointment to all of those who loved Anakin and believed that he would learn his lessons and do the right thing.
He also seems more unstable, more dangerous to be around, now that I know what's behind that mask.
"You have failed me, Anakin"
The PT made mr interested in the OT. I view all six as equals. I honestly don't watch 1 & 6 as often as 2-5. The middle four films is where meat is.
Yes, the PT trilogy has changed how I see the OT. People have already mentioned good examples, but here are things that I want to say. When Obi Wan mentions the Clone Wars in ANH, we now know what the clone wars were and makes that line really cool. And just when he tells Luke about his father and Darth Vader, now we know Anakin is Vader and is Luke's father you can almost tell Obi Wan is lying. A big one for me is the duel between Darth Vader and Obi Wan on the deathstar, it really mirrors their duel on Mustafar, and we now know their history that it makes it all the more powerful.
The prequels have also changed how I view ROTJ, and has made me appreciate it a lot more. I always thought it was the weakest out of the OT. But thanks to the PT, I now love it! The scenes with Luke trying to get through to his father, you can feel Anakin slowly coming back. Actually, here is a part of Anakin Skywalker's 'Wookieepedia' page:
"Vader had never forgotten the pain Count Dooku had inflicted upon him with the lethal power of Force lightning, nor could he bear to see his son in such agony. He had been unable to save his mother, he did nothing to prevent Mace Windu's death at Palpatine's hand; he betrayed the Jedi Order and murdered thousands of members; he killed his former Master and best friend; he had lost his beloved wife and true love. But he could still save his son. Vader would not stand by and let his son fall. From that moment on, Darth Vader was no more, and Anakin Skywalker was reborn."