PT Did the PT make Anakin genuinely a tragic hero, or just an even bigger villain?

That's an interesting question. With Shmi in his life - could the Jedi have "weaned him off possessiveness slowly" I wonder?

 

Indeed, and I think that is what Samuel Vimes has been arguing, but that darth-sinister rejects.....which is why I'm interested in how that idea (that nothing the Jedi can do will affect Anakin's possessiveness and fear of loss) ties in with the ideas that a) the Jedi bear responsibility in some way for Anakin's state of mind beyond b) their decision to train him against their rational judgement and on the basis of the prophecy.

 

It might not change his possessiveness about his mother, but if they did rescue his mother and placed her somewhere safe, I think he wouldn't have this anger towards the Jedi council, just towards himself for not being able to save her.

 

Watto lost money, but he was still in a position, as far as he knew, to recoup his loses. And he was quite capable of being vindictive out of spite. Whether he would or not is subjective.

No, what I'm saying is that Anakin needs to make the effort to train himself to let go of his fears. Her presence in his life wouldn't stop him from being afraid of death, since it is more than attachment to her, but attachment to all the people that he cares for. That's why he reacts as he does every time someone that he cares for is in jeopardy. He tends to be more aggressive and obsessive with saving them, than he is towards anyone else. He cannot be objective. He needs to work out his fears on his own. The Jedi can only point in him the right direction. Anakin has to make the effort and as Lucas said, which Traviss also points out, his power makes it easier for him to do the opposite.

"It's easier to succumb to evil than it is to be a hero and try to work things through on the good side. Evil is inherently more powerful—it doesn't have the burden of worrying about other people. What Luke sees in Darth Vader at the end of ROTJ is something that I thought was worth understanding: the idea that Darth actually was a very good person. Except he's slightly more powerful than other people and when you get into that situation, your ability to do evil is much easier to come by."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

When Anakin has Padme in his life, or Ahsoka, he tends to be more ruthless when something negative affects them and thus would affect him. Merely having loved ones with him isn't enough. Especially when he starts dismissing them.

Remember also that Anakin is best friends with the guy who wants him to become his new Apprentice. Taking her to Naboo wouldn't stop Palpatine from sending Dooku or Ventress out to kill her. Anakin would blab to Palpatine about where she is, thinking that she would be safe and not knowing that he was still signing her death warrant.

 

Except the films don't show him as being vindictive out of spite. The films instead show him as greedy and mostly interested in making money. Given that, he would be a total idiot to destroy something very valuable for no reason. Also, the films show that he DID sell Shmi, what did he say? "Business is business."

So not only have you made up the idea that Watto would kill Shmi out of spite if some random stranger came by and tried to buy her. Your idea is DISPROVEN by the films.
PLUS, the Jedi would not know this beforehand so this would not stop them from trying.
But the films are pretty clear that they never even tried, nor did Padme for that matter.

Your argument fails.

What you fail to understand is how easy it is to learn something can be dependent on outside factors.
Say if you try to teach someone how to swim and give them concrete shoes and tie their arms behind their backs and throw them into a deep river isn't likely to work well.

Here the Jedi should have realized that Shmi being left a slave and Anakin left in limbo about her would be a hindrance. not a help. And they should have done something to alleviate his pain.
But instead they fall back on dogma and rules and expect Anakin to behave like all other Jedi they take in that have no memory or attachment to either of their parents.

Anakin was a pretty normal nine year old, I would say very well adjusted given that he had lived most of his life as a slave or a crime infested planet. Like most nine year old, he missed his mother and worried about her. This is even more expected since she was a slave on a crime infested planet and could get sold or otherwise have something horrible happen to her.

Most children that grow up having their parents or primary caretaker around them will be able to grow out of their attachments and move on with their lives. Where you have an increased risk of trauma or problems occurring is when the child looses such a person at a sensitive age and the risk is even bigger if the child is left in limbo. If they don't know what happened to their mother/father, if they don't know if they are alive or dead.

If you haven't seen it, I recommend the DS9 episode, "The Visitor" for a story about how hard it can be to let go when circumstances are bad.

Anakin was left in limbo, he didn't know if his mother was alive or dead, what happened to her nor could he contact her in any way. This gave him ten years of fear, worry, anxiety plus his unfulfilled promise to help her. And on top of that he is with people that could free her with minimal effort and yet they won't bother. Not very strange that Anakin grew up resenting the Jedi.

And all of this is because of the ten years of trauma he suffered between TPM and AotC. Ten years of fear and worry. Ten years of wanting to help his mother but being denied. And to top it off, his mother died in horrible circumstances but Anakin could and di blame himself. That he could have saved her, if he had been able to go sooner or free her years ago and take her off planet.

His reaction is very understandable and not strange that he blames the Jedi for this. They held him back, they knew his mother suffered as a slave and they didn't lift a finger to help despite him asking them.

Consider Luke, he is attached to his friends. In ESB he leaves Hoth and goes to Yoda to train. He knows that Han and Leia are in danger from the Empire but still he goes because he trusts that they can take care of themselves. He spends time training with Yoda, again with no worry about either of them. It ONLY becomes a problem when he starts getting visions. Then he feels their pain and he worried that they might die. So simply having attachment wasn't a problem for Luke. He only gets worried when their lives were put in actual jeopardy. Which is pretty normal. I don't spend all day worrying about my parents. But if they were to get kidnapped then I would start to worry.

Anakin in TPM worried about his mother after he left her, even not knowing made him worried and filled with fear. Luke could deal with not knowing about Han and Leia, Anakin could not.

[/QUOTE]

Except that Palpatine have known for a long time that Shmi is on Tatooine and yet he has done bugger all about that. No assassins sent there, no hiring Tuskens to kidnap Shmi, nothing at all.

And again, the Jedi and Padme are not aware of any of this so this is not a reason for them not freeing Shmi.
Your argument fails yet again.

To sum up, your argument is based on things you make up, characters acting totally different from how they otherwise acts and people knowing things they could not possibly know.
In short, not convincing.

Plus you treat Anakin as damned from birth, he can't let go of his mother no matter what and his turn is inevitable. To me that ruins the story and the character. His choices are no longer his choices but inevitable outcomes and can't be changed no matter what he or anyone else does.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Anakin did worry about her at the outset, but his fears were mostly kept in check in the back of his consciousness. It isn't until she was taken that he starts to have his dreams and that he starts to worry. But even seeing and talking to her won't alleviate his feelings. These are things that he needs to break on his own through his training and his problem is that he doesn't want to. These negative feelings have come to define him, as they almost do to Luke.

He accuses Obi-wan of holding him back and not because he wasn't allowed to go see her, but because he thinks that he's holding him back from being the superior, bestest and most powerful Jedi ever. Because he's jealous of him and his abilities and not because he's unstable.

 

They could have fred her the same way her husband did. By buying her.

That comparation is unfair, and you know it. So everybody who cares for a loved one is a drug addict?

Attachement to your parents is not an addiction, is a natural instint ingrained in our own DNA. It isn't something adquired or learned. Telling a kid to stop caring for his mother is like telling him to stop feeling hunger and thirst. He just can't. Teaching to stop doing it is a long, difficult, antinatural process.

Anakin wasn't a Jedi. He was a nine years kid. He wouldn't become anything resembling a Jedi for years. It would take him years to learn to discipline his mind, and until then fear was festering, shaping his mind.

As others have said, they show Anakin that she's safe, he stops worrying and fearing, becomes contented with his lot in life and hopefully can train to become a proper Jedi instead of a psycho.

And if he can't let go and wants to leave the Order and return with Shmi? No worries. Yoda and the Jedi Council didn't want to train him anyway, so problem solved. Anakin becomes a mechanic or a pilot or something, marries, has children, and he's no longer the Jedi Order's problem.

 

Exactly. The Jedi aren't exactly keeping Anakin in chains and forcing him to stay in the Order. As proven by the busts of all the Jedi who left the order, Anakin certainly wouldn't be the first Jedi who decided that being a Jedi wasn't all that was cracked up to be. Worst case scenario, they take his lightsaber, bid him adieu as he goes to build a new life for himself, his mother, and his future wife and children on Coruscant/Naboo/Anywhere Not Tatooine.

 

What makes you think the Jedi have money to buy slaves?

I never said that. Read again.

It is a natural instinct. And when the purpose is to let go of those feeling in order to be a Jedi and selfless, it's not by encouraging their relationship that he's going to do it (hence the comparison with a drug addict. It's not by giving him drugs that he's going to stop consuming them). Shmi did it. She didn't stop caring about Anakin, but she let him go for the greater good (in her case, that her son was going to have a better life). Anakin needs to do the same thing: he needs to let go in order to serve the greater good.

Nobody said it was easy. And nobody asked him to stop caring. As he said himself, compassionate care is essential to a Jedi.

What? He wasn't a nine-year old kid when he decided to go save Shmi. And he knew that he shouldn't have done it.

They can only show her safe in a certain moment, and then what? What happens after that? Danger is everywhere. Besides, what about her? What she wants?

No, he doesn't. That's the whole problem.

Yeah, no worries. But he doesn't leave the order. Not for Shmi, nor for Padmé.

I'm not sure what you're arguing about.

 

Alexrd, we're not talking about 19-years-old Anakin. We're talking about telling a frightened 9-year-old Anakin who just got separated from his mother to just forget about her. By a council of supposed compassionate keepers of the peace. No wonder he resents them. They're the one beings with the power to change the universe yet all they want to do all day is sit in their ivory temple and contemplate their own navels?

Though you do raise some interesting points. None of this is considering what Shmi wanted. She very clearly told him to not look back, that her place and future was on Tatooine. Then again, how do we know if that's what she really felt? How do we know she wasn't just putting on a brave face when internally she was wishing she could go with Anakin off the planet?

 

They have the means to keep 10,000+ Jedi Masters, Knights, Padawans, Initiates and members of the Corps fed, clothed and housed, to maintain their temples, praxeums, praxeum ships, libraries, hospitals, starships, training droids, medical droids, research droids...etc., and Shmi was cheap enough to be bought by a poor moist farmer.

And if they didn't want to spend their own money, they could have asked Padme to buy Shmi. Padme owed Anakin a great debt.

 

Well, that's the thing, IG Lancer. We're too busy banging on the Jedi that we forgot about Padme. Surely she could've pulled some strings to get Shmi off of Tatooine and provide her with a house, food, clothes, and a job?? She's not a Jedi, she has loved ones (hell, her mom is still alive!) She could probably easily imagine how separating a child from his mother might not be good for the kid's psyche, especially if he's joining a group that vows no attachments.

Forget the Jedi, why didn't Padme, a queen of a planet, just send some guy disguised as a slaver to go to Tatooine, fork over the money Watto needs in exchange for Shmi and take her back to Theed Palace? She could even keep it a secret if she were afraid people would raise hell that she's meddling in the affairs of a non-Republic planet and dealing in slavery.

 

Yes, the whole thing with Shmi makes everybody look horrible. George Lucas didn't think too much about it, I guess.

It would have been easy to make Padme say "don't worry about Shmi, I bought her freedom a few weeks after the Battle of Naboo"...It prevents Padme and the Jedi Order from looking like *******s and gives Anakin a reason to idolize and love Padme.

And then Anakin goes on "The Jedi Order told me that she was safe, but they refused to explain...I just assumed that the Council bought her"

And why didn't Shmi leave Tattooine? Because she had a boyfriend there, she didn't have money or the skills to start a life elsewhere, and since the Jedi Order had told her that she would never be allowed to see Anakin again, it made no sense to go after him. If she stayed at Tattooine she at least had the hope that, once an adult, he would one day come back to see her.

 

Except that was never said in the movies.

In fact, what was said explicitly states the whole problem.

"Your thoughts dwell on your mother."

"I miss her."

"Afraid to lose her, I think."

He misses her and is afraid to lose her. While the feeling itself is perfectly natural, it's also a big problem for Jedi training if he can't control and let go of it. Fear is the path to the dark side, as Yoda explained. Fear of loss, in this case, which he will eventually lose, like every mortal being. Despite his Jedi training and knowledge of the Jedi way, 19-year old Anakin ignores his mandate and acts on his fear.

Which they do, within their powers and boundaries.

No, that's not what they do.

Why wouldn't she want that? Of course she did, but her words don't contradict that. She's being selfless towards her child, which is what any normal good parent would do.

They are provided with the means to maintain their order, which in turns maintains their job as protectors and servants of the Republic.

I don't know on what basis you're implying that Shmi was cheap or that Cliegg was poor.

Then blame it on Padmé.

 

I think you guys are forgetting that buying a slave even to free her is supporting the system of slavery and thus morally bankrupting to the Jedi Order.

AND to the reputation of a Queen/Senator.

 

Really?
Is it more moral to turn a blind eye to those that need your help? To ignore people you know, that helped you and you could help in return?
Saying "I could help you but I am not going to because I am a moral person who is worried about my reputation." It might be more politically "safe" but more "moral"?
Padme did not strike me as a person who was more concerned about her own reputation than doing what was right.

Was Oskar Schindler "morally bankrupt"? He bribed SS officers and Nazi officials to save the lives of Jews. And in so doing made himself financially bankrupt.

Sorry, in my opinion, neither the Jedi nor Padme can take the moral high road by NOT freeing Shmi.
Helping people is not a zero sum game.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

My point was more of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't". If the Jedi buy a slave, they are supporting a morally bankrupt system. If they don't, they didn't really do anything to help destroy the institution of slavery across the galaxy.

 

Jedi cheated to free Anakin they are clearly already Grey. Freeing his mum would've been very helpful and buying to set free isn't wrong. Bribing and gambling is but as I've said before *intent* and *motive* do count for a lot even if it isn't popular in some circles.

 

Sometimes, to do the right thing, you must commit an unspeakable wrong. A wrong that you know goes against your morals.

Schindler probably had to do a lot of Nazi salutes and trick them into thinking he was totally for them to save those Jews.

To free a slave, someone has to play the game of buying the slave to do so. Padme can't force every slaver in the Outer Rim to abolish slavery, but she can free one person.

 

First, if the choice is between bribing a few nasty people to save thousands, I don't really see the "Damned if you do and damned if you don't" logic. You are doing a very minor bad thing to do a much greater good thing.
Quite often I see this argument used by people that really don't want to do something but they can't admit it and so they use this excuse instead.

As for slavery and Shmi, again this is not a zero sum game. If they free Shmi, there is one LESS slave in the galaxy. Just because they freed her doesn't mean some other person would get sold into slavery. This probably won't end slavery but it is a start. It won't make a huge difference on a galatic scale but it will make a difference to Shmi and Anakin.
Doing nothing won't help to end slavery one bit.

So either they free Shmi, which frees one person from slavery, a person the Jedi owed a debt of gratitude. This will also make Anakin more at ease and he will have an easier time learning to become a Jedi and he is apparently the most important Jedi alive so it would behoove the Jedi to take extra care. The money given to Watto won't be used to buy another slave because as AotC showed, Watto clearly couldn't afford one.

Or they do nothing, which means leaving Shmi to suffer as a slave, Anakin will suffer fear and worry, which could have massive consequences.
Again, the two options are not equal in my eyes.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

If she wanted to leave, she could have done so after Cliegg freed her. She could have saved up enough funds to go to Coruscant or anywhere else. She choose to stay because that was the only life that she really knew and was wiling to start over with the Lars.

That's where the Sith come from. They were Jedi who wanted to change the universe by subjugating it and ruling with an iron fist. The Jedi were founded on the principle of serving the Republic, not acting on their own agency.

 

It was mostly Qui-Gon Jinn that freed him, not the Jedi Council. If Qui-Gon hadn't had died, he would have probably continued to try to free her later on as he didn't think like the other Jedi, he didn't seem to believe in their rules and codes anymore.

 

I like this statement from the first page of this thread. Someone else on that first page something to the effect of: "what should the Jedi have done? Give him hugs and warm fuzzes?"

Actually, I kind of think that this IS what they should have done. Anakin needs warmth and compassion (he is "cold" in TPM after leaving Tatooine). Qui-Gon showed him warmth and compassion. Obi-Wan, for all that he is a "white knight" figure, is pretty contrary with Anakin, going more for appeals for cold applications of logic; saying things to Anakin like: "what were you thinking?!", "your thoughts betray you," (in the coruscant bar) "Think." Of course, Qui-Gon tells Anakin before the podrace "Feel. Don't think. Trust your instincts." I believe that this colder style of teaching/mentoring is part of what, looking back with hindsight, Obi-Wan regrets from his training of Anakin.

I'm not saying that what Anakin did was the fault of Obi-Wan, but films 1-3 demonstrate how the Jedi had a hand in their own destruction.

 

The problem was that the Jedi were far too rigid in their thinking. What they did worked very well when the apprentices were bought up in the Jedi way from a very young age... but Anakin wasn't. He was quite clearly pretty unconventional even when he was a Jedi, even as a Padawan, but they insisted on trying to react as though he was a totally conventional Jedi even when their discipline/methods quite clearly were not working. Which is not their fault entirely but as mentioned by jc1138 amongst others, they clearly bear SOME responsibility for their own destruction by not adapting and evolving - the novelisation of ROTS makes it explicit but even in the films it's reasonably obvious that Palpatine is one step ahead of them the entire time simply because he knows exactly how they are going to react to any given situation.

Qui-Gonn is one of very few Jedi who could have prevented it because he would put Anakin's specific and personal needs well ahead of what the Council decides is right and proper. Obi-Wan is an example of a brilliant orthodox Jedi but orthodoxy is not what Anakin needed to keep him on the straight and narrow. Just for example Anakin's relationship with Padme would have been different if he'd been able to talk about any problems with a mentor who wasn't a Sith in disguise.

 

Apparently those are hard to come by in the GFFA