PT Did the PT make Anakin genuinely a tragic hero, or just an even bigger villain?

He is both. His story is genuinely tragic in the sense of what could have been -- what was lost given the choices he made. That and the fact that he was meticulously manipulated by Palpatine makes him a victim, in a way.

But he's a larger villain in the sense that his evil in the PT feels much more personal (in my opinion) than it does in the OT.

 

Right, we know that but Anakin doesn't. He knows that the Jedi Order has no love for politicians and if they were to make a power play, they'd eliminate the Senate and the Chancellor in order to secure their position. Or at the very least, remove many senators that they feel to be part of the problem which would include Padme.

They're already corrupted by the Jedi teachings. They weren't innocent. No more than the Tusken children were innocent since they were raised to behave the same as their parents. That's why fifteen years later, Vader tells the Inquisitor to eliminate any potential Jedi that is discovered. Implying that even children will have to die. If they will not serve the Empire, they must die. That is also why Luke and Leia were hidden because they'd be killed.

Precisely.

That's the point. It comes down to choice. Anakin made a choice to abandon everyone and choose to serve the man who was the enemy. He makes a second choice to save his son. He's not doing that because it is his destiny, but because he loves his son. But as a by product of saving his son, he fulfills his destiny. Just as Anakin fulfills Padme's destiny by trying to save her like he did.

 

Destiny doesn't preclude choice though.

 

Anakin is tragic in the sense that he was a slave boy who lost his mother and was indoctrinated by an order whose rules were so strict, he had no freedom there either.

He was not tragic in a sense that he was unrelatable and a real a-hole.

The lack of chemistry between Hayden and Natalie Portman hurt his connection with the audience. Unless you've never experienced a real relationship, it was boring, tepid and completely unbelievable.

 

Because destiny is about who you become, not what you will do when you have achieved that goal. For every moment that Luke gives into his fears, anger and hate, the more he's on the verge of turning evil. This was very explicitly laid out in Brackett's draft for TESB and was made a bit more subtle by the time Kasdan came on board. So when Palpatine says it is unavoidable, he's not trolling Luke. He's telling him that by continuing on the path he does, he will be his Apprentice. At the same time, the Jedi tell Luke that he must confront Vader a second time and only when he does, will he become a Jedi. That he cannot escape the confrontation. In the end, they are right because they meet again and in that confrontation, Luke has to make his choice. And he ultimately chooses to stop fighting and in doing so, he chooses to become a Jedi. Luke's destiny is multifaceted based on his actions, just like it is for everyone.

The point of the prophecy is that there is a great threat that needs to be eliminated and only Anakin can do it. That is the arc of his journey. But it is along his journey that we see the dangers in becoming a Jedi and trying to stay on the righteous path. It is the macguffin of the first six films.

 

I understand that, AFS. As you said we disagree.

 

A divine power may or may not had a hand in Anakin's birth. Remember, Palpatine said that Plagueis could create life. It is up to the audience to decide on that one. What is know is that someone strong in the Force, possibly a Jedi, saw what happened when the Chosen One restores balance. It may have been what we saw in ROTJ, it may be a different outcome of the confrontation in Palpatine's office between Anakin and Palpatine in ROTS. They in turned passed this knowledge down and the Jedi were aware that it could come to pass prior to Anakin's discovery. We know for a fact that in the Saga, Jedi and Sith are capable of seeing into the future. The end result was foreseen, but how it happened was not. The rest about choices and consequences applies to how it happens.

 

Neither.

He's certainly not tragic, imo.

It made him a lesser, weaker villain imo.

Not only fails to deliver any sort of compelling backstory for the great villain, it also manages to neuter his future self.

 

It's also possible that the prophecy was...descriptive, not prescriptive, I guess. Like, it was foretold by some ancient Jedi that the person who would destroy the Sith would be this Chosen One created by the Force, etc., but only because those were the choices that Anakin decided to make. If he'd chosen to make different decisions and not killed Palpatine, the prophecy wouldn't have been created all those millennia ago (or at least, not in the same form).

 

The prophecy could simply have gone unfulfilled. Force prophecy, as far as we know, doesn't come equipped with in-universe guarantees. On the other hand, if we assume for the sake of argument that at some point in the future of that hypothetical timeline ( however far removed ) the Force would eventually have been restored to balance by someone else, that someone else would likely be viewed as the true Chosen One of the prophecy.

 

I wish I could like this twice.

 

I think ROTS definitely made him a tragic hero...that film is a true Shakespearean tragedy in space! Also the TV show only made Anakin even more likable so that when we finally see his downfall it's really heart breaking...

 

It is interesting how many feel this way. Personally, I don't think either element you mentioned is conveyed but I'm glad it works for you.

 

Men who crave power look back over the mistakes of their lives, pile them all together and call it destiny.

 

I guess he is technically a tragic hero. Technically. However, the label tragedy or "tragic hero" doesn't in itself indicate quality.

 

Yeah, I saw that movie too. But that's a different view. In that case, Skeletor just brands himself as destined for greatness despite the numerous setbacks caused by He-Man. This is more that someone has seen what will happen, but not the road leading to it. Anakin never refers to what he's done as being his destiny. He's only told that he has a destiny and that it will come to pass. Or that he is doing it now, as Palpatine claims.

He doesn't have to be a great hero. Just someone who did noble things for a long stretch. But in the end, he had everything that anyone could want and he still wanted more. He took a big risk and gambled his entire future and wound up losing big time. That is the tragedy.

 

If you actually look at his actions as portrayed in the movies, he's not a "tragic hero" at all. Saying that is like saying O.J. Simpson or a serial killer is a tragic hero.

The guy is a complete douche bag (I'm sorry there's no other way to put it).

He doesn't even do anything overtly "good" in the prequel movies aside from being a "good guy that fights bad guys" for a little while:

- He has a creepy, stalker-ish, whiney quality when trying to "seduce" Padme.

- His political beliefs even when he's a "good guy" as stated by him are basically fascist.

- He wipes out an entire village, including women and children in revenge for his mother being killed.

- He goes from being a "good guy" in a span of about 24-48 hours to murdering a room full of children himself. There isn't as shown in the movie even any hesitation on his part.

This is supposed to be a tragic hero? No, I'm sorry but the prequels failed miserably in this regard.

From Episode II onwards he's basically either whining about something or on the verge of killing someone, while pausing briefly to try to win Padme over with his "rape-y" pick up lines. What's so noble about him other than he's on "Team Obi-Wan" for while?

 

What's noble? Well, let's start with AOTC.

1. Anakin and Obi-wan were established as good friends at the start of AOTC, even with the tension between them over Anakin's progression. They share a laugh and a smile over a memory.

2. Anakin's decision to not have anyone in Padme's room other than Artoo was a sound one, since an assassin wouldn't risk taking a shot at a Jedi sitting in her room.

3. He saves Obi-wan's life while chasing Zam.

4. Anakin struggles between feeling grateful to Obi-wan and his own impatience.

5. Padme likes Anakin despite his "creepiness".

6. For the first time in a long time, Padme is happy and comfortable around him, except for the moments when the romantic tension arises. She shares thoughts and feelings with him that she's only shared with members of her family.

7. Yes, he killed the Tuskens in anger and he was wrong. The fact that he feels remorse for it afterwards shows that he's not entirely evil. The issue of killing the Tuskens is a gray area since they've gone for years kidnapping and brutalizing various people for not good reason other than they can. This is why Padme doesn't condemn his actions.

8. He wants to do the right thing, but constantly struggles with his obligations towards his duties. Hence going to Tatooine as he does and then on to Geonosis. In fact, it is Padme who gives him the excuse he needs to disobey orders.

9. During the war, Anakin and Obi-wan finally start reaching the level of respect for each other that the other was long looking for. They banter while in grave situations, just as his children will down the line.

10. Though he has anger issues, he is still loyal to people which is why he's rescued Obi-wan ten times during the war and wanted to help Oddball.

11. Yes, his political views are troublesome. The result of a Sith Lord twisting his perception of the political field for ten years.

12. Yes, he doesn't hesitate to kill the Younglings because at this point, he has chosen to be a Sith Lord. If he hesitates, he will not be trained. He's Darth Vader now.

13. He did show loyalty the Republic and the Jedi, which is why he went to Mace about Palpatine despite his earlier outrage.

14. He did not want anyone to die in Palpatine's office, but he was forced to make a choice due to what Palpatine and Mace did to each other. A wrong choice, but one that he made willingly.

You're not supposed to like his actions once he turns. You're just meant to see how he could lose it all due to his own failings.

 

It's all perceptions. Some read things differently it doesn't make them wrong just different.

 

I think the Clone Wars episodes "Overlords," "Alter of Mortis," and "Ghost of Mortis" expand his character on a mythological level and is a great foreshadowing of his downfall/rise as the Chosen One...those episodes are arguably the best of the entire show.

 

If this was a real person we would consider him a psychopath/child-murdering serial killer.

The way the story is setup just does not plausibly work as him being a "tragic hero".

"I'm a Sith Lord now, whereas just 8 hours ago I was a good guy Jedi. Guess I have to go murder 30 kids 'cause Padme."

A person who can be turned into a mass murderer of children so quickly was never "good" in the first place.

I think George screwed the pooch with having Anakin himself stoop to the level of killing the Younglings. It should've been something Palpatine ordered his troopers to do or something and Anakin didn't interfere (thus making him complicit though not directly responsible while still maintaining that Anakin has indeed betrayed the Jedi). It just isn't emotionally plausible that a character who is essentially "good" would turn into a child murdering maniac in the span of a day though.

It's even stated by Lucas that in the original Episode III draft Anakin's turn to the dark side was even *quicker* and he had to re-write it to stretch it out even a little longer after he got feedback for it. I just don't think he really had a good read on how Anakin was going to turn to the dark side and it kind of shows.

 

You miss a very important paradox that Anakin created for himself in ATOC..when he says,"...compassion, which I define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life...so you could say that we are encouraged to love...." This belief helped fuel his lust for Padme into the point of being uncontrollable.

This paradox, the misunderstanding of the Jedi's embracing of compassion, in conjunction with him developing attachments at such a young age and being trained as a Jedi much older than the average Jedi was already the set up of him going own the tragic path...it's a tragedy because it was a very innocent mistake in his belief system....

And I didn't even mention the whole ordeal with his mother and how he didn't want a repeat of the same incident with Padme, so take that into account as well.