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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Did the PT use too much CGI?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by deadly jp, Jul 19, 2015.

?

do you think its good to use too much cgi in the prequels

  1. yes

    38.6%
  2. no

    61.4%
  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Their suits were singed. You can see the damage to their robes.

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    But they were also protected by ray shields on the robots that they were hovering on, which is the blue glow that you see underneath both droids and on the facility itself.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

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    Because he was no longer protected by the ray shields and was down near the edge. You can see him smoldering before lighting up.

    [​IMG]

    And Lucas filmed inside a studio, with a rain machine and used CGI waves. The only reason to not use a water tank was because Obi-wan and Jango don't fight on a boat or in the seas, whereas "The Perfect Storm" was filmed on a sound stage and used a water tank, since the actors and stunt doubles all go into the water at various points. Kamino is set on platforms and so a water tank would be wasted since no one goes inside of it.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    My point though was that if one wanted practical, there is no substitute for the real world. No sound stages, no water tanks, no rain machines.
     
  2. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    The answers are all in the movie itself (see above post) and very obviously there was singeing.

    Just like he did with every other Star Wars movie.

    So nothing new at all for him.

    That's great. I think Anakin vs Obi-Wan is the best duel of the series and it's "spectacular-ness" is not the main reason. To me it's about that plus the character, emotion and story being told. Certainly the Luke and Vader duels are close behind.

    Super-heroes who all get all but wiped out by the villains?

    For their marketing so far it is since they aren't promoting the CGI which is the number one reason for the higher expectations overall. People associate Star Wars with pushing forward the visual storytelling to new heights the way it always does.

    TFA has been promoting much of itself so far on the bogus "return to the old ways" which is not where the interest is.
     
  3. DBPirate

    DBPirate Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2015
    Oh, ok.
     
  4. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    The whole point of marketing is to get people to want to see the movie. This poll shows that's very much the case. I doubt they're going to care why they want to see it. As for CGI there's no need to go around promoting it specifically. People are just no doubt aware we're going to see an improvement in visual effects compared to 15 year old movies.
     
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  5. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    As a producer and financier of these films, the big motivating factors for Lucas with CGI were money and time. If you can do something with CGI that will be quicker and cost effective, then go that route. If a practical effect is quicker and more cost effective, then pursue that option. At the end of the day, no matter how much money Lucas could pump into the films, he also had deadlines to meet in order to make the release each film.
     
  6. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Although I love the PT, am a huge supporter, and ROTS is my favorite episode (so far),

    I voted yes-that it did use too much. I agree there was a lot of model and miniature used, especially in TPM, but mainly what I'm referrring to is certain CG characters, and certain sets. There are several examples of an entire room being CG, or a set with only furniture, and the rest of it is all blu/green screen. Don't get me wrong, some of them look great (for example, Palpatine's office in ROTS) but I feel some sets/characters/vehicles could've been better served in terms of a sense of presence if they were actual sets/models.

    I respect that Lucas was always on the cutting edge of innovation, and always pushed the envelope of technology with his SW movies. What was used for the OT was innovative for its time-the CG used in the PT is innovative for its time as well. I get that. I just think there is something to be said about finding a good balance between the two.
     
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  7. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Absolutely. That seems to be what the ST creators are going for. Doing their best to use practical effects where possible with CGI where necessary.
    Very true. There's an interview years ago where he says he was able to make the prequels for around $100M while other big blockbusters were spending $200M.
     
  8. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2013
    Nope! :)
     
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  9. SW Saga Fan

    SW Saga Fan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2015

    Back at the beginning of the years 2000, CGI was still very time consuming and could be very expensive to use. "Practical" effects and miniatures were still cheaper to use than CGI. Even if it was the beginning of the computer era, it was still impossible to make everything 100% CGI for the prequels even if every frames in the two latest prequels (Episode II & III) have a digital effect. George Lucas and Dennis Muren said themselves on this video that it was much easier and more effective to build models than using CGI:

     
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  10. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    What are you nope-ing?
     
  11. CoolyFett

    CoolyFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Im a PT fan who has watched 1-3 many times. I would say the biggest error was cgi clones and motion capture. They could have easily found hundreds of stunt guys to suit up and be real armored clones in episodes 2 and 3. I think the super battle droid could have been less robotic and more human shaped. Motion capture would be great there.
     
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  12. LZM65

    LZM65 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2015
    I really do not see why it matters. "STAR WARS" is not the only movie franchise that uses extensive CGI these days. Heck, "FOREST GUMP" used a good deal of CGI. Even in other movies - the Tolkien films, the Marvel films, etc. - the CGI isn't always that effective. Sometimes, the practical effects aren't always that effective either. No movie is perfect and I don't expect any of them to be.

    Why are we getting caught up with this "practical effects v. CGI" argument anyway? I feel as if this is some kind of publicity ploy by Disney and Lucasfilm to distract moviegoers. I don't care how much CGI or practical effects were used in the past movies or how much will be used in this new film. I'm only wondering how the story for this new film will turn out. Because I believe the backbone of any movie is the story and not the special effects.
     
  13. Alienware

    Alienware Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2013
    LZM65: Yeah, I agree with you. And Star Wars was always aiming for the impossible and made it possible. That's why you'll never see me complain about the effects in these movies, because I know how much effort was put into each frame. Take the Hoth battle in Episode V for example. I always notice the stutter of the stop motion movement of AT-AT's, but I don't care one bit, because it looks real enough. The same way I don't care about anything else that I know isn't real, but is either a model, a puppet or CGI.

    The one point I will concede is that it's easier for actors to do their job when they have something to act with, which usually leads to better performances.
    But I will never concede the point that something can look too animated or something like that. Sure, it can look like that to you personally, but it doesn't make it true for everyone. That's why this whole "authenticity" campaign doesn't touch me in the slightest.
    Everyone has different expectations and aesthetic views. Digital cinema has its own look and feel, but just because it doesn't feel authentic to you, doesn't mean it's like that for everyone else. For example, I will admit that I prefer the LOTR trilogy look to that of The Hobbit, but there are tons of kids growing up with these new movies and will probably prefer it over the look and grain of film. The art form evolves, otherwise we'd still have movies in black and white. And I'm sure that some people were screaming against color when it became mainstream.

    To take it to the extreme, if I'd be born in 1920, I'd probably prefer the 1933 King Kong over the 2005 one. But I simply cannot enjoy the old one because I grew up with different movies and expectations. I can appreciate it for what it is and what it meant for cinema, but even its authentic effects don't make me enjoy it more than the cold green screen shot modern one.
     
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  14. Delta-7

    Delta-7 Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2002

    This is actually the best answer I have seen on this issue.

    I must say also that the Effects have held up pretty well all these years later. I watched TPM with someone who hadn't seen it yet and she couldn't believe that it was made in 1999.
     
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  15. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    I'm an unabashed fan of most of the CGI characters from the prequel trilogy: Boss Nass, Watto, Sebulba, Dexter Jettster, Poggle the Lesser, General Grievous...
     
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  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    That wasn't the reason why Lucas did that. He did it for the following reasons...

    1. The suits that were used looked fake to him. One of his biggest complaints in 1976 and 77 was that the Stormtroopers looked too fake for his liking.

    2. The suits were too cumbersome and visibility was practically nil. The stuntmen were falling all over the place and movements were limited.

    CGI allowed for a greater range of movement for the Clonetroopers which resulted in a credibility that he preferred.

    Why limit their designs?
     
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  17. CT1138

    CT1138 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2013
    They're humans wearing full body armor. of course its restrictive. These guys are soldiers, not gymnasts, they're not meant to be given a "great range of motion". It decreases suspension of belief when you have a guy dressed head to toe in armor then have that guy move around like he's wearing a leotard.
     
  18. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    Watch the Battle of Utapau.



    @ :57, watch how well they move. That's a good range motion. They're running, ducking, jumping. That's some good movement there. The actors couldn't even do that. Why do you think Luke says, "I can barely see" in ANH? That's because he couldn't see that well. Something Anthony Daniels backed up when he put on a Stormtrooper helmet once and said it was like looking at the bottom of a wine bottle. Watch this...



    @ 1:19, this happened a lot during the making of the OT. Not just ANH, but on TESB and ROTJ. They don't have to be ballet dancers, but they should be able to do better than that.
     
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  19. CT1138

    CT1138 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2013
    To be fair, with C-3PO, they're covering his eyes with light bulbs. You can make helmets that you can see out of, and the things we can do to add realism to plastic costumes these days far out classes anything we could in 1977.

    My point still stands. If you're wearing this:
    [​IMG]

    Your range of motion shouldn't be this:
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Davak24

    Davak24 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 15, 2015
  21. CoolyFett

    CoolyFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2003
    For better movement. I never gave a reason why the clones were fake, why are you saying that I gave one? My opinion is they could have designed a flexable suit and used some stunt men. I never stated why george did this or that. Im not understanding your reply to my post.
     
  22. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    That explains why some people view OT stormtroopers as ineffectual because of the bumbling manners of the stunt men made into film. It is no wonder whyy Lucas chose the CGI route in the PT.
     
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  23. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    Um, the point was that Anthony Daniels wore a stormtrooper-helmet once, and couldn't see much at all. It was not about C-3PO.

    Your other point doesn't really make sense either.
    First, what the soldiers in your picture are wearing has next to nothing to do with the armor used by stormtroopers.
    Second, being able to not blindly stumble through the surroundings has absolutely nothing to do withany sort of gymnastics, that is just useless hyperbole on your part, which makes your comparison fall completely flat. There is a gigantic difference between wanting your troopers not to look like a baby-giraffe moving on ice and them swirling through the air like Darth Maul. The former is what you can see in the video above, the latter is something that never - ever - happened with the clones. There isn't a single instance of a clone making impossible movements.

    Besides, they did use motion capture for the clones, both in AOTC and ROTS. Even if that had happened only partially, any further animation would have been based on the way motion-captured clones behaved. Meaning their movement is a whole lot more natural than that of an actor in an armor which limits his movement and prevents him from seeing much at all. It should be quite obvious that this worlds combat-armor does allow a whole lot more movement than the stormtrooper armor did, and you can bet that no one would ever send out his soldier with equipment that limits his ability to see. Or do you really believe that not being able to see much of your surroundings and being unable to get past the slightest obstacle is anything an actual army would deem to be good equipment?
     
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  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    There's a difference between Threepio's eye silts and a Stormtrooper and Scout Trooper helmet. Not to mention that Hamill also backed that up. Have you ever looked at the bottom of a wine bottle? The stuntman who smacked his head on the door did so because he couldn't see that well.


    No, but look at what was done in ROTS. That was far more efficient than the OT combined. That was on par with what real people can do in body armor, which has a lot more free range movement than plastic armor. Why do you think that we don't use anything remotely like Stormtrooper armor in real life?

    Being flexible wouldn't change that Lucas felt that that suits looked too fake. His whole reasoning was to get away from the fake looking suits of the OT, while also giving the clones a greater range of movement. As noted by Oissan, motion capture work was done. In fact on ROTS, I recall that someone with army or marine training did the motion capture work for the combat scenes. This added an air of credibility in making the clones efficient soldiers.
     
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  25. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2013
    I was answering the OP's question.