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Did TPM give birth to the now-common bashing movement?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Phantom Menace' started by AdamBertocci, Nov 16, 2003.

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  1. AdamBertocci

    AdamBertocci Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2002
    Maybe I just have a more positive outlook on films than your average geek, but I just don't understand all the bashing sometimes.

    And this isn't just about SW, this is about all movies.

    When TPM came out, for every fan who jumped on board having just been introduced to the phenomenon, there was another fan who hated the movie and was all too eager to let you know it.

    Oh, I won't deny that TPM had strong negative reaction from many OT-loving folk. And to this day there are still people who camp out on SW and general-movie-related message boards waiting to add their two cents about the PT at every turn. (Say hi, guys. ;) )


    But then something interesting happened.

    "The Matrix Reloaded" came out, and people bashed.
    "The Matrix Revolutions" came out, and the bashing I see on that rivals anything I've seen for SW. Unbridled hatred and anger. The franchise is dead, the Wachowskis ruined the legacy, blah blah blah. There are far too many curse words for me to print.
    (And I'm not a Matrix fan, I haven't even seen the sequels, but really, they can't have been THAT bad.)

    But even worse.

    I shan't spoil it for you, but suffice to say that a report cropped up about Peter Jackson's ROTK movie, and it made people angry. So angry.
    And this is Peter Jackson and LOTR we're talking about. The franchise that could do no wrong, the man people worshipped as a cinema god.
    ONE REPORT comes out and suddenly everyone whines and moans, and the movie isn't even out yet. Forgotten is their love for FOTR and T2T. They call him greedy and hack and egotist. They drag out the inevitable "raped my childhood" and say he ruined the books. Over ONE report.
    Examples: "(LOTR actor 1) should gnaw Jackson's legs off at the knees after (actor 2) pulls out Jackson's beard one hair at a time" ... "Tolkien's legacy has become ALL about the beaucoup dolares" ... "So PJ decides once again that he will sacrifice *important* (spoiler removed), either because he doesn't really care enough for the storyline, or because he has run out of the energy required to fight. Bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad PJ. We need a petition. Fast."
    My God! This is LOTR! I thought we loved LOTR!
    (And keep in mind, I didn't like this report either, but I was hardly calling for his head on a platter.)



    Did people always act this way?
    When the Rocky and Jaws franchises started going downhill, I can't picture people becoming militant 'bashers' of the sequels.
    Or Star Trek? When a Star Trek movie was ill-received, how angry did people get?
    ROTJ seems to take a lot of crap on these boards, but I can't imagine that when it came out, people took to Usenet and bashed it mercilessly.

    My question is this: Did TPM open the floodgates for movie-bashing?
    TPM had 16 years of expectations and hype out the wazoo. If there was any film in a position to disappoint, it was that. Also, the Internet was really a big thing by the time of TPM, so movie geeks had a place to go to engage in heated debate and name-calling.
    And I think once it became fashionable to rip into Lucas, it became fashionable to rip into any powerful franchise. The Wachowskis have taken incredible abuse from their fan base, and Peter Jackson just got a huge taste of it.
    And I'm just talking about the BIG franchises now. You can find this behavior for most movies. Comic book movies attract a lot of bashers, for one...

    But was TPM the first?
    Discuss.


    Rick McCallum loves you!
     
  2. winter_chili

    winter_chili Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2002
    Good points Adam

    I dont think that TPM really "Gave birth" to it but it does seem to be the first example of people having overrealistic expectations of movies and thus being easily let down. I go into every movie I see believing that it will suck, thus I have never been let down.

    edit: Before coming here I had no idea people hated TPM so much. Now i know better.
     
  3. son-of-skywalker13

    son-of-skywalker13 Jedi Grand Master star 2

    Registered:
    May 27, 2002
    great points, i agree with you on many levels. Where can I go to see this report on ROTK??
     
  4. -JarJarBinks-

    -JarJarBinks- Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    The internet gives every two-bit whiner both a voice and an audience, which fosters the illusion that their complaining matters somehow.

    Additionally, a "fandom" that one can share via the internet with thousands of people around the world 24 hours a day tends to attract obsessive types that take their entertainment far too seriously for their own good. This is why the inherently-ridiculous occurance of people getting angry or bitter over simple movies seems so common.

    So, basically, internet movie fandoms tend to attract, well, weirdos and don't accurately represent the population at large, even the segment of the population that might have seen the film in question. Normal people tend to have those fabled things called "lives" and don't go foaming at the mouth and starting petitions when action movie directors make plot decisions they don't approve of.
     
  5. R2-12point

    R2-12point Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2002
    Movies are getting weaker and weaker. That's my answer. I'm not being in the least "cute" or "elitest" about what I'm saying; my honest feeling is that movie quality has degraded seriously over the last twenty years. Add this fact to the invention of the World Wide Web, and there is bashing explained.

    No, when the Star Trek franchise declined from the sublime (Khan) to the ridiculous (Kirk vs. God), there wasn't "bashing". No Internet. People just said, "God, that sucked" and went and got a cup of coffee.

    As for your films of today, I'll be quite frank; they're only bound to disappoint in the long run. I may be a prequel basher, but I'm no fan of the Rings films either, and an outright crank when it comes to the Matrix. These are modestly inventive, modestly made adventure films. They are expertly made in many areas, but ultimately they are pre-packaged, demographically-oriented, cunningly marketed, eventual DVD purchases/multi-media franchises. If a few thousand (or million, or dozen, who knows?) young people want to pretend the greatness or weakness of such films is the be-all and end-all, that's fine. But eventually the hype turns back around. Even if the Rings or the Matrix had started out as five times the films they are now, the love just couldn't keep up after years of repeated viewings, repeated discussions, repeated everything. The data stream that flows over us today is just too wide, the hyperbole just too hyper, the films too many and too frantic to take time to sink in and matter.

    It'd be easy to go into the evolution of how things got this way: from the beginning, when the Hollywood studios folded, through the invention of the modern blockbuster in the seventies, the true nightmare of studio corporate control and "agents and marketers and movie producers" in the eighties, and the saturation of VCRs and DVDs and the cable/computer media explosion of the nineties, but it's important to know this above all else:

    If movies are way over-hyped, then bashing (and gushing) is just as much, if not more, INSUBSTANTIAL HOT WIND. What matters is what you like or don't.

    So why do I come here? Well, I only do it for the prequels because SW and Empire, made in the last inspirational era of filmmaking, are great films that imprinted themselves on me and I love them. I come here to say things like "Menace" was made from a lazy first draft and "Clones" was produced from a disaster of a rough draft (which they were). I'm only seeking to cmmiserate with others who feel as I do, who wonder "why?" as I do, who ... etc., etc. Argue it or don't, but don't, for criminy's sake, let it distress you. I happen to think "bashers" like myself are easy to differentiate from trolls, and have something valuable, and emotionally-wounded, to say. But even still: consider it, move on.

    So, no. Menace didn't invent "bashing". Like the Matrix and Rings, it just happened to come out now, when the Web and a generation of movie-goers who've grown up since the invention of the VCR came together for the first time. Ultimately, it's all just a way for young people (and not so young) to kill time and sound off.
     
  6. a2dmusic

    a2dmusic Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2001
    TPM didn't birth the 'Basher movement,' the internet did. The same thing happens - and has happened since I first got online preweb (1993 or so). It happened everytime a band/musician came out with a new album. When Mike replaced Joel on MST 3K. It happened with everything that people had a passion for in culture - TV shows (before the term 'jumping the shark' came into the net-nomenclature), movies, music.

    I've seen far more spittle-drenched posts from "disappointed" fans of a semi-obscure British musician (Mike Oldfield) on an email mailing list in 1995 than I've ever seen here.
     
  7. -JarJarBinks-

    -JarJarBinks- Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    "Movies are getting weaker and weaker."

    Bullocks. If you look beyond the multiplex at the mall, there are more brilliant films being produced now than perhaps at any point in cinema history. What you said only holds true if your definition of movies is confined to xXx and Charlie's Angels 2.
     
  8. Latorski

    Latorski Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Adam's original post brought up an interesting point about how this never used to happen (e.g. with Jaws or Rocky), but even now some franchises get it worse than others. SW and The Matrix seem to get it the worst. Star Trek Insurrection was released in 1998 and is widely disliked. Still, it doesn't get bashed anywhere near as much as The Phantom Menace or Matrix Revolutions. Neither does Batman and Robin (1997) or any new Bond film although everyone has an opinion on it. And up until about 5 months ago, The Matrix was the hippest, most fashionably cool movie franchise around. I can understand part of a fanbase not liking a sequel, but the level of hatred towards Episode 1 or the Matrix sequels is beyond me.

    It's not even limited to the director anymore; everyone involved gets ripped- e.g. I've seen several threads here that bash Lucas, McCallum, Ewan, Portman, Jake Lloyd, Hayden C, Ahmed Best, SLJ, Ben Burtt, Gavin Bouquet, etc. Many of these bashes are personal and have nothing to do with their work. And people wonder why Natalie Portman doesn't like SW fans.

    I agree the internet has given rise to bashing, but this seems to affect some franchises more than others. Why is that?

    Some of it may have to do with expectations not being met. Other people might resent the media indirectly telling them what to like by overly hyping movies. There are those who feel better about themselves by tearing down something else. I don't know.
     
  9. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Maybe I just have a more positive outlook on films than your average geek, but I just don't understand all the bashing sometimes.

    Well, personally , I think it's great. Sure - some go too far etc. But I think it's directly connected to how passionate people are about movies.
    Look - what was there before the internet - if you really liked a movie or wanted to discuss it, there was the odd review written by some bored hack who pretended to know everything. There were friends who might have seen the movie, but somehow anything beyond basic declarations of like or dislike was not heard; movies weren't considered an important topic of conversation, we'd be worried that people would think us geeks. (us geeks still are worried about being considered geeks! check out how many times in this thread posters will try and separate themselves from the real geeky geeks. *sigh* we hate ourselves.)

    I quite like reading someone going off on a complete rant, it shows they care.
    I'd much prefer it to reading some 'Stepford Wife' recitation on how nice something is.

    Bashing isn't passive.

    I suppose TPM was the first in the internet generation to be a big disappointment.
    Had Star trek the Motionless Picture come out when the internet was here then I think you'd have seen something similar, fans waited 10 years for that thing and they had to choke it down like they were grateful.

    g
     
  10. Latorski

    Latorski Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2002
    I quite like reading someone going off on a complete rant, it shows they care.

    Although I'm a gusher, I actually like reading angry rants too. I think they're funny.
     
  11. -JarJarBinks-

    -JarJarBinks- Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    "I quite like reading someone going off on a complete rant, it shows they care."

    Or, alternatively, it shows that they're obsessed about movies to an extent that would be disturbing if it were not so pathetic.
     
  12. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    I think so. Or at least, the PT has changed bashign forever, adding exciting new dimensions.

    For instance, we sometimes get, double-bashes, like the critic who described the acitons scenes of Matrix: Revolutions as looking like "outtakes from the last Star Wars movie." Two birds with one stone, eh?

    So I think yes, TPM was the beginning of a new intensity in bashing. I'm not sure it caused it though, maybe it was the first to feel the effects of the new movement.

    But, unfortunately, about Revolutions. You thought it couldn't be that bad. . .but the Wachowski brothers do have a reputation for stretching you're mind and making you contemplate the impossible. In other words: Oh yes it can be that bad. And it was.
     
  13. winter_chili

    winter_chili Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2002
    No, no it wasn't
     
  14. Obi_Frans

    Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2003
    oh yes it was
     
  15. Darthkarma

    Darthkarma Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2000

    It's always easy to sit in judgement and spout opinions about films. It's a lot tougher to do the work of making them
    and realize how much can happen between conception and execution. That's the real world folks. Even the best filmmakers have made bad films and some new or average filmmakers occasionally make a masterpiece. That uncertainty is what makes films...and art, worth doing. That's the excitement of it. I think most people with harsh, negative opinons of movies would have radically different opinions if they had the responsibility of making a film WORK. I doubt many of the people posting all the bile on the net have ever been in the position of guiding one of these complex special effects behemoths that cost 100 million plus dollars, or dealing with star egos or battling a studio for creative control. It's a very different game than sitting comfortably in a theatre or watching a DVD and posting what are oftentimes wrongheaded, often bizarre opinons about how a movie turned out. Don't judge people until you've stood in their shoes. I'm not a big fan of the 2nd and 3rd Matrix films,
    but I'm not gonna wail on the Wachoski Brothers. I have no idea why their movies turned out like they did. They may have turned out EXACTLY the way they wanted, or they may have had pressure to do them that way, or any of a million possibilities. I wish them well on their next movies. They are talented and I respect them, I just didn't like their movies. No big deal.

    I loved the Phantom Menace.
    It was pretty much exactly what I expected.
    You go George!
     
  16. Obi-Wan2001

    Obi-Wan2001 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 2001
    (And I'm not a Matrix fan, I haven't even seen the sequels, but really, they can't have been THAT bad.)

    Actually, Revolutions is THAT bad.
     
  17. jabba_the_nut

    jabba_the_nut Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 17, 2003
    The best ingredients for bashing

    1) internet message boards
    2) obsessive fanbase
    3) preferably a "saga", as opposed to a movie and some sequels somebody made

    The first one's going to be true for every movie from here on out. Number two will be true for most sci-fi or fantasy. Number three is really the big one: the biggest bashers are fans of other movies in the "saga". Do you see anybody around here that thinks that all Star Wars absolutely sucks? None of those people care. Also, how many fans of Halloween 1 (and 1 alone) are trolling on boards for the new Halloween movies? Most of them don't care either, because the sequels are seen as irrelevant.

    TPM "invented" bashing to the extent that Star Wars "invented" obsessive fans and giant sprawling sagas (Looking at some of those usenet archives, maybe it would be more accurate to say that ROTJ invented bashing).
     
  18. Darth Pikachuwbacca

    Darth Pikachuwbacca Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 22, 2000
    What about the Simpsons? Whether you like it or not these days, a lot of internet fans say it is the worst thing on TV, and that they will never watch a new episode, that it reached it's peak years ago, etc.

    Same with wrestling. You won't believe the bashing that goes on around that.

    We live in cynical times. It's easy to say how much you hate something. Expressing how much you love something, that's the real trick.
     
  19. rpeugh

    rpeugh Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2002
    >>>>>>>>>>>Movies are getting weaker and weaker. That's my answer. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

    I used to think this, but I am beginning to think it is juts a myth. Really, only 10% of movies every year are any good. Besides, 7.5 of the movies in my top ten list were made either in the 90s or the 21st century.
     
  20. openmind

    openmind Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Although I'm a gusher, I actually like reading angry rants too. I think they're funny

    Darn ya beat me to it! 8-}
     
  21. Loco_for_Lucas

    Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2002
    As a "Basher," I think it's funny to see Gushers desperately scramble to rationalize Lucas' whims with the story. Now THAT is funny. :p
     
  22. topgoalscorer_no11

    topgoalscorer_no11 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 23, 2001
    The whole OT was one of Lucas's 'whims'.

    I agree with the earlier poster on the pathetic nature of the internet uber-basher- they truly are the lowest form of nerd.

    Why do they bother? Day after day, they repeat the same mantra- professing 'hatred' for the film-maker, bemoaning anything new no matter how insignificant it might seem to 99% of fans, as if it heralds anew the death of whatever franchise has sparked their ire.

    Why do they care so much? Are their lives so utterly meaningless as to be somehow tied to the quality of a series of films? Rambling and whittering endlessly on about box office statistics, tomatometer ratings...

    It's fair to criticise, even to harbour an intense dislike for a film- but the sheer amount of time and effort squandered, wasted on repeating the same points over and over and over ad infinitum.

    They literally must have nothing better to do.

    I hate [insert film-maker here] because he didn't do what I wanted him to do.

    HATE!!?!

    The sheer bile and loathing these creatures constantly put out...

    How immature, how lacking in perspective and ability to seperate people (the film-maker) and things (the film)?

    In anyone over the age of fourteen, these qualities are sadly indicative- not of some supposed drop in the quality of films, but of a sad trend of a dangerous obsession with the meaningless and the trivial (yes, even Star Wars).

    Like little biting gnats they sting away day after day, seeking to undermine the enjoyment of people who come here only for the simple pleasure of interacting with others who share an interest.

    They are the inevitable end product of obsession- twisted and ultimately to be pitied.

     
  23. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    I just don't understrand people who insist on focussing on the negative. I can't imagine living like that.
     
  24. Quixotic-Sith

    Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2001
    This thread has 24 hours to improve, or it will be locked with warnings about flame-baiting. Adam's initial question was perfectly fine; the responses it got (for the most part) were not.

    The simple rule is to discuss the films, not the posters. The phenomena of "bashing" is a gray area, and one that has yet to be defined in any terms more concrete than "something with which I disagree".

    I have seen a lot of comments in this thread that will earn vacations from the boards if I see them again. If I see *anyone* start implying things about one's fellow posters, regardless of their views on the PT (pro or con), I will strike down with great vengeance and furious anger.

    *Everyone* here has agreed to abide by the Terms of Service - which explicitly states that you will respect others' opinions, even if you disagree with them. If you cannot abide by this, if you cannot discuss a topic without taking a swipe at those with whom you disagree (like saying people are "pathetic", "losers", etc.), I will ensure that you do not post at this site. Period.

    I am sick of it, and it will stop. Posting here is a privilege, not a right, and the boards will get along quite nicely without you.

    Clear?
     
  25. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    I am not sure who you are adressing.
     
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