Did Vader "let" Luke beat him in the ROTJ duel on the DS?

Right after Vader threatens Luke with trying to get Leia over to the dark side, Luke goes ballistic and goes after Vader with a vengeance, soundly beating him and cutting his hand off - this duel lasts all of maybe 1-2 minutes, and it's obvious that Luke has the upper hand this entire time, since he drives Vader back until Vader can't even defend himself anymore. It was obvious that Luke was holding back earlier in the duel - and, this is a far cry from Luke's getting soundly beaten during his duel with Vader in ESB.

So, the question is this - how does Vader, who is supposedly one of the most powerful Jedi's ever, and who in ESB we saw using inanimate objects as weapons, as well as being able to force-choke his opponents, let himself get beaten by Luke who was, for all practical purposes, an amateur?
The only explanation I can think of is that he let Luke beat him, because he didn't want to kill his son - maybe he thought (correctly) that Luke wouldn't kill him - I just can't see any other explanation, other than that he was shocked by Luke's ferocity in the fight, but then if that were the case he should have been able to recover at some point, but he never did...

 

I think he was shocked at first by the force that came from Luke when he attacked and the anger that went with it. I think like might have dipped into the Dark Side there for a moment, not knowing of course, when he went full out after Vader and had all that anger built in him. I just think Lukes speed and power just overwhelmed him too much with all that anger.

 

Luke pulled an Obi-Wan of sorts. His anger made him strong and gave him the upper hand in the duel, cooled down, and took control of himself (see Obi in TPM).

Anyways, Vader was shocked. Luke was livin'. Don't forget that Luke grew more experienced between ESB and ROTJ, and he is the son of Skywalker.

 

Much of Vader's power in ESB comes from the Dark side. By the time ROTJ comes, his devotion to the Dark side is waning. This makes him less powerful. Luke, on the other hand, has grown much more powerful since ESB and his power is being enhanced by his tapping into the Dark side during the end of their ROTJ battle. Plus, Luke is younger and has something to prove from his last battle. This enables him to defeat Vader.

 

At first Vader was suprised by the sheer (sp?) ferosity of Luke's attack,and Luke was tapping into the Dark Side.Luke was trying to protect his sister, plus, he probably already had some anger built up that he'd been holding since ANH, when Vader killed Obi-Wan.

 

Luke didn't win. It was a three way tie where 2 people died. Luke beat Vader, Vader beat Palpatine and Palpatine beat Luke. Simple.

 

While dueling with Luke, Vader was overpowered by the compassion and sadness in his own heart. Compassion for the son whom he never knew. Sadness for the many realities which were weighing down upon him- Anakin sensed Luke's anger, Anakin sensed the imminenet death of Luke if Vader were to actually try to kill him, AND...Anakin sensed memories of Padme too. And so, Darth Vader became nostalgic, contemplative, etc. As he realized he could not bring himself to kill his own son, he slowly split from the Dark Side, battling an inner war much more difficult than the physical one. Be it emotional trauma causing him to give up, or the Dark Side no longer at his aid, Vader stumbled to the ground, ready to sacrifice himself for Luke.

He let Luke win.
"You were right about me. Tell your sister...you were right..." (I think that's the quote)

 

up!!

 

Joker: Palpatine didn't beat Luke, because Palps didn't kill him. He was going to, but Anakin saved Luke.

 

I think Darth Vader was just too weak to fight. He did not want to kill Luke. I don't think Luke wanted to kill him either.

 

Sorry, but I think you totally misunderstood this movie. Vader was not holding back at all, nor was Luke simply an "amateur".

"....and you'll be forced to kill me."
"If that is your destiny....."

"...if you do not fight, you will meet your destiny"

Vader wanted to turn his son to the dark side. If it couldn't be done than he was willing to kill him. The "conflict" that Luke spoke of was hidden far too deep within Vader for him to even sense it...don't you remember?"

"You were right about me....tell your sister...you were right"

Only at that very moment did Vader realize that he was still good at heart.

Oh and Luke was no "amateur". Luke and Leia were the only ones capable of becoming powerful enough to defeat Vader, thus they were the "hopes" of the galaxy. By ROTJ, Luke is a VERY powerful Jedi.

"He could destroy us"
"He has grown strong"
"Indeed you are powerful as the Emperor has forseen"

 

No, Vader was weak in his older age and Luke was becoming stronger with the force.

 

Vader wasn't getting weaker. Remember Yoda in AOTC? He was 874 years old. You call what he did weak? Age has nothing to do with one's ability to use the Force. In fact, the older one gets, they can only become more powerful with experience and more knowledge.

 

I've heard this conspiracy theory before, and think there might be something to that.

Perhaps Vader was allowing himself to be beaten, counting on Luke defeating the Emperor, as the Emperor had foreseen. Then Vader could reach out to Luke and they could rule together, as he said in ESB.

But when the Emperor was besting Luke, Vader made his decision to "sacrifice" himself for Luke, the ultimate act of heroism.

So I think those were Vader's intentions, things just didn't work out quite the way he wanted.

 

I have to agree with meta. When I first saw Jedi, I thought Luke won purely because he became too powerful at the end. But if you watch him fight, he's still not nearly as good a swordsman as Vader, even despite his injuries. Luke is strong, but he swings wildly with practically no control. Even after his outburst, Vader could have taken the upper-hand. But then he saw Luke's anger and ferocity take over. Yes, part of Vader wanted him to turn, but actually seeing, first-hand, his son taking the same path he had, Anakin truly began to waiver. If he didn't have to wear the mask, either Prowse or Shaw probably would have been directed to show first shock, and then an expression that would emote his feeling of "How could I have let it come to this?" He started with a decent defense, but after a few strikes, Vader/Anakin barely makes an attempt to block Luke's attacks and finally gives in.





Eva_Pilot04
Insanity x2...

 

Quote:

"Vader wasn't getting weaker. Remember Yoda in AOTC? He was 874 years old.
You call what he did weak? Age has nothing to do with one's ability to use the
Force. In fact, the older one gets, they can only become more powerful with
experience and more knowledge."

This may be true, but only up to a point. Remember that noone is clear what alien species Yoda is, so for all we know his species is supposed to live very long. Vader, you have to remember, was only human, and therefore it's possible that he did weaken as he got older. I do agree that Palpatine (who was human) was very powerful in the force, and he was quite old, but I think in Palp's case he was also very weak in some respects - as we could see in ROTJ, he was very decrepit looking, couldn't move fast, and looked dessicated. Granted, he almost killed Luke (and did kill Vader) with force-lightning, but as we saw when Vader lifted him up, he didn't/couldn't struggle. He may have been powerful, but he was by no means agile or physically strong...

 

Indeed we will see if Episode 3 adds anything to this scene. I think it will. Luke's brief training on Dagobah does not compare to the training Anakin got from his Jedi and Sith Masters. Vader could've outsabered Luke just as Dooku did to Anakin in Ep2. Believe it. Also, might wanna reexamine that Endor Luke/Vader scene one more time. Notice Vader's pause. It speaks volumes.

<edits: wording>

 

I think Luke is a better swordsman than you people give him credit for. Luke is quite oviously trained to be a weapon against Vader and Palps and he is easily a very powerful Jedi for Yoda and Ben to even consider sending him against them alone, Yoda and Ben do tell him that he must face and fight Vader again.

And oh ya if you watch the fight in Jedi again you will also see that Luke is only fighting defencevly, I think that if Luke went on the offence he easily kick Vaders ass, Just look at the confidence he has as compaired to the fight in ESB.

 

bah you dont get it..

Anakin/Vader are the "one who will bring balance to the Force"
And he make a son that are the Chosen One and then Anakin bring balance by throwing down the Emperor.

thats it

 

I always believe that Luke, like Obi-Wan with Maul, killed Vader when he let his anger control him, thus proving the dark side is stronger. But he was able to take back control, unlike what Yoda tells him : "When you start down that path, forever will it dominate your destiny." Yoda was wrong with that one. One little momentary lapse of reason can be overcome. However, if all your actions start to be driven by the dark side, then you will be an agent of evil.

To get back on track, I don't think Vader let Luke beat him. He was surprised and Luke's anger at that moment was greater than Vader's.

 

Luke won the fight fair and square. Not only was Luke younger, but Vader was also half machine which makes him much slower than Luke.

Besides, Vader wouldn't let Luke win because the Emporer was willing to let Luke kill Vader and take his place. I don't think he would have wanted that to happen.

 

Listen to The_Deal_Alterer he knows what he's talking about. Luke was very powerful, who cares how much training remember what Yoda said "No more training do you require,already know you that which you need" Vader wanted Luke to join the darkside and when he threatened Leia, Luke went beserk. Don't you see Vader holding his hand up in a "stop I can't take it!!!" way, if he didn't do that Luke would have killed him.

 

During the duel, I'm sure that Vader was still stronger then Luke but there wasn't a huge gap.

During most of the duel, both Vader and Luke weren't trying their best to kill each other. Vader wanted Luke to join him, and Luke wanted Vader to return to the Light Side.

But when Vader suggested turning Leia, Luke unleashed all of his energy and hate on Vader. I think Vader was surprised not only by Luke suddenly attacking him, but also by the amount of hate luke was unleashing upon him at the time. His hand was cut off before he ever had a chance to counter Luke. If Vader hadn't been so surprised, he could have kicked Luke's butt.

 

It's made clear in the novelization and in the annotated screenplays that Vader wasn't holding back, especially after Luke kicked him down the stairs. Also, when Luke goes nuts it says he goes after Vader with a fury that Vader has NEVER seen before.

People like to say Luke was swinging wildly in that final sequence. I say go watch the ESB duel when Vader follows Luke to the open shaft, because Vader is swinging far wilder in that sequence.

 

Well I look at it this way. Anakin had nine years of true emotion before he became a Jedi in which he couldn't use it to help him. Then when he turn to the dark side he learned to use his emotions to fuel his fighting. But Luke on the other hand has had 18-20 years of true emotion before he was Jedi. Also keep in mind Luke had trouble concealing his emotions before hand. So when Vader touched of that nerve of years of emotions Luke exploded on him and put all that emotion into his attack. Also keep in mind the Dark Side fuels your attacks as opposed to your defense so Vader couldn't put his emotions into his defense.