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Did Vader want the emporer dead?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Obi-Wan_Skywalker_29, Jun 6, 2003.

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  1. MasterYodawell

    MasterYodawell Jedi Youngling

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    Jun 5, 2003
    I don't think Vader wanted to rule the galaxy as much as he wanted to be free of the Emperor's grip. Clearly Palpatine controlled Vader with fear.

    In ROTJ, Vader mindlessly accepts Palpatine's orders to return to his starship, even when he can smell that something is fishy. He also tells Luke, "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master," which I understand as Vader fearing the consequences of disobeying Palpatine. Also, in TESB, watch how quickly Vader drops everything to contact Palpatine once he learns he's been ordered to do so.

    Also, it doesn't make sense that Vader would want to be the #1 guy in the galaxy. In AOTC, Anakin tells Padme' flat out that he doesn't want to be in charge. Vader wasn't interested by politics.

    I think he wanted Luke to help him destroy Palpatine so that he could be rid of his fear (Palpatine). As it turns out, he got rid of Palpatine by going back to the Light Side and then getting rid of the source of his fear...not quite as he'd originally planned it, but all's well that ends well.
     
  2. IliveinHoth

    IliveinHoth Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 22, 2002
    He knows Luke couldn't destroy Palpatine with a single saber-blow, anyway.

    I don't care how juiced he was, he would have been doing the Darth Maul two-step if vader hadn't blocked Lukes saber, I have seen nothing in SW to prove that anything else would occur. Notice that even Yoda drew his saber to defend against dooku.
     
  3. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    IliveinHoth, I believe it's possible that Palpatine might somehow deflect or absorb the blow, if it came down to it.

    The evidence is scanty, but consider that Maul is an apprentice, and never uses the more advanced Sith powers, like lightning.

    Also consider that Obi-Wan absorbs Dooku's lightning with his saber. If these two powers--sabers and lightning--cancel each out, isn't it likely that the Emperor would be able to use the lightning to absorb Luke's saber-blow?
     
  4. laser_sword

    laser_sword Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2003
    How could Vader exist without the emperor? The thought of ruling without the emperor might have been pleasing but perhaps not possible. Vader might not have been able to accomplish this & live to enjoy it.
    Vader took no action agains the emperor until his son was near death.
    From ROTJ:
    LS: But, you'll die.
    DV: (In regards to removing the mask & knowing death would soon follow) "Nothing can stop that now."
    Luke never questioned why.
    Vader knew he was to die, but when? Why & how could easily be attributed to the death of the emperor or the removal/elimination of the life supporting source.
    The emperor could have provided the power supply/Oxygen/life support for Vader's breathing apparatus. Listen to the change in Vader's breathing after the final light saber duel in ROTJ. If Vader was more machine then man, then why such a need for Oxygen? Why the shortness of breath?
    If then emperor dies, then so does Vader. You eliminate one, the other follows.
    The emperor might have grown tired of waiting for a new, younger, stronger, fully human apprentice or the elimination of someone considered a threat. Either join or be destroyed. There can only be two.

    Perhaps the emperor began removing Vader's life support giving Luke an advantage. There was an obvious change in Vader's breathing. Consider what the light saber duel was about. Luke did not want to fight. The emperor wanted this put out to pasture once and for all. Vader suggested originally about turning Luke to the dark side. Vader was obeying an order he thought of.

    With the reconstruction of the death star why the need for a mechanical apprentice that is if the emperor considered Vader a powerful weapon.

    Fear kept many in line. Fear of Vader, The Emperor, & the death Star.

    My belief is Anakin was on the verge of death in Episode 3. The emperor sustains his existence through a breathing apparatus. Therefore, Vader was grateful and served his master. When his master no longer supplied life support, Vader had nothing to lose. Vader wanted his son alive. Vader waited until the emperor was only a few feet away from the shaft to be thrown into. The Emperor's attention and energy was fixated on Luke. This made for an unexpected as well as unseen action on Vader's part. The electricity originally shooting from the emperor's finger tips was turned inward placing direct pain at the source. With the Emperor in pain, Vader made an easy lift, walk, & throw down the elevator shaft. This was about making a choice again for Anakin, either save his son or remain at the emperor's side. If the power supply was running out, then both Skywalkers would be no more. Perhaps Vader had nothing to lose especially if he knew he was close to death regardless of what decision was made. If nothing else Vader could finally look at the son for without the mask, mend their relationship, & bring balance to the force. Perhaps by the end of ROTJ Anakin & Luke both in some sense finished their training.
    The only other notable event was for the first time Vader lost his light saber. Perhaps there will be something revealed in episode 3 about the construction?

    ?I have foreseen it. He will come to you, and then you will bring him before me?
    The emperor could not see the outcome but knew of the meeting.
    ?Difficult to see, always emotion it is with you?
    Luke?s emotions make it difficult to see?
     
  5. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    The emperor could have provided the power supply/Oxygen/life support for Vader's breathing apparatus. Listen to the change in Vader's breathing after the final light saber duel in ROTJ. If Vader was more machine then man, then why such a need for Oxygen? Why the shortness of breath?

    Laser-sword, that's certainly a unique theory! But your opinion that Vader cannot survive without the Emperor just does not hold water. Vader is mostly machine, true, but he must need oxygen to sustain his biological systems: he still has a human brain, which requires blood to provide the precious gas. The suit keeps these systems functioning, like the life-support apparatus used in hospitals today.

    The Emperor may have designed this suit (we don't yet know), but why should Vader need him to supply oxygen? How could Vader have got through the events of ANH and ESB, from which the Emperor is notably absent? Clearly Vader is able to maintain the mechanics of the suit without Palpatine's help!

    The reason Vader's breathing changes is that the saber-onslaught of Luke, and especially the Emperor's lightning, have left the life-support systems in ruin. There is no more complicated answer than this!
     
  6. Obi-Wan_Skywalker_29

    Obi-Wan_Skywalker_29 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2003
    The reason Vader's breathing changes is that the saber-onslaught of Luke, and especially the Emperor's lightning, have left the life-support systems in ruin. There is no more complicated answer than this!


    Yup, definetley.
     
  7. laser_sword

    laser_sword Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2003
    This is only my opinion.
    *How could Vader have got through the events of ANH and ESB, from which the Emperor is notably absent?
    Very easily because the emperor is still alive. I have always been of the belief that Vader cannot exist without the emperor. Based Vader?s appearance when his mask is removed & the original throne room set designs in ROTJ the lava theory seems to hold true. How could Anakin fall into Lava & possibly survive? There must have been some intervention. Again this will be made clear in episode 3.
    During the start of the ROTJ light saber duel Luke knocked Vader down an entire flight of stairs. Vader returned to his feet, walked up the stairs, and continued the duel no change in breathing. Vader then warned look "you are unwise to lower your defense." Do not lower your defense in a light saber duel nor when the emperor shoots electricity at you from his fingertips. A light saber, as in episode 2, serves to deflect & shield. Luke did not see it. Unwise to throw a light saber aside.

    *The reason Vader's breathing changes is that the saber-onslaught of Luke.
    That was not much of an onslaught. I wondered why Vader went down that fast. That never seemed believable. That appeared to be symbolic of a possible changing of the guards. Some onslaught Vader was back on his feet, raised the emperor in the air, carried, and threw him down an elevator shaft. Vader, then collapsed and basically went out of commission upon disposing of the emperor. Luke dragged Vader to the shuttle. Luke's style did not change that dramatically from ESB to ROTJ. Vader had 3 light saber duels with Luke in ESB. In the first he fell off a platform. In the third, Luke saber struck his shoulder. Vader kept going full steam ahead with no emperor watching to pass judgment, but an emperor who was very much alive. Vader never made contact with the Emperor's lightning, only Luke suffered. The electricity on Luke was the onslaught. Vader turned face & made the save because an opening existed. Very shortly there after Vader said "nothing can stop that now" without any real explanation as to why.

    The emperor exerts tremendous energy with episodes 1 & 2 holding many under the influence. That is apparent by Senator Palpatine's slow color disfiguration. Darth Sidius clearly has human appearance in TPM & AOTC. In ROTJ, his appearance has changed dramatically. From human to more of a reptile. The more the Emperor exudes energy, the more physically drained he becomes which shows in appearance. When Vader's helmet was raised the skin tone of he & the emperor appeared almost the same, gray. The obvious drain could very well be due to sustaining Vader. Papatine/Sidius did not age gracefully, his appearance has changed. OB1 aged normally from Episode 2 to 4.
    As for the costume, that was explained. Parts of the costume are scattered throughout Episode 3, similar to a pieces of a puzzle.
    Other interesting notes: Only two shots were fired from the Death Star in ROTJ. Both were direct orders from the emperor. After the second shot, Luke tries to strike down the Emperor. The Emperor's attention is diverted from the rebel fleet to the light saber duel. The death star does not fire any other shots. Between The Death Star, tie fighters, and star destroyers the rebel fleet could have been leveled. The emperor has something special in store for the rebel fleet, which only happens twice. The emperor stated the rebel fleet was insignificant, yet with the help of Ewoks the generator was destroyed lowering the shields for the death star. This was not foreseen as the Emperor?s attention is focused on Vader & Luke.
    Vader was awfully quick to block Luke's light saber wing at the emperor.
    Luke has a bind, he does not want to fight his father, has no intention of killing him, and needs to dispose of the Emperor whom he knew little about. Even in ROTJ there is not much known about the Emperor or his powers. In the original film, by simply watching the movie the planet Coruscant is not mentioned. There are some s
     
  8. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 24, 2000
    Well, just when Luke was about to do the job, Vader stopped him. Very out of character if you think he wanted Palpatine dead.
     
  9. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    How could Vader have got through the events of ANH and ESB ...?
    Very easily because the emperor is still alive.

    Okay, but I mean in what way? You said earlier that Vader needed the Emperor to supply him with oxygen. Does the very fact of Palpatine's existence somehow bestow Vader with oxygen? And then when the Emperor dies, that supply is somehow magically cut off?? Could you please explain this???

    That was not much of an onslaught.
    Okay, suit yourself. It wasn't much of an onslaught. Luke did not drive his father back with a focused forward assault, followed by a furious barrage of blows that culminated in Darth Vader weakly defending himself while holding onto a rail, and finally losing his circuit-sparking hand.

    I must have imagined that!

    Vader never made contact with the Emperor's lightning, only Luke suffered. ... Very shortly there after Vader said "nothing can stop that now" without any real explanation as to why.

    I guess you missed the part where lightning courses through Darth Vader's entire body, illuminating his skeleton from within. Maybe you got up for some popcorn at this point, I really don't know, but it seems like somewhere in your long dissertation on the course of events, you would have noticed this little tidbit.

    Ramble on.
     
  10. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    Obi-Ewan, don't be silly! Vader was just biding his time, waiting for Luke to capitulate to the Dark Side so they could gang up on the Emperor and do the old boy in.
     
  11. Dark Lady Mara

    Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 19, 1999
    Dammit... I just had a long reply to this written up and the boards decided to log me out when I tried to post it. :mad:

    Anyway, here's the gist:

    Also, it doesn't make sense that Vader would want to be the #1 guy in the galaxy. In AOTC, Anakin tells Padme' flat out that he doesn't want to be in charge. Vader wasn't interested by politics.

    I agree with the second and third sentences, but not the first. In the RotJ novel, Vader has a lot of disdain for the bootlickers and bureaucrats Palpy surrounds himself with, and he also hates people like Ozzel who get their positions solely through birth and influence. Additionally, Vader expresses his disgust with the DS in ANH. He seems to be very ideological, and he disagrees with Palpatine's policies in many ways. (You can also see that Anakin is quite ideological in AotC.) It's not unreasonable to think Vader might want to seize power just so he could do things the right way.
     
  12. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    Additionally, Vader expresses his disgust with the DS in ANH.

    Cogent analysis, Dark_Lady. One rarely hears that point: that Vader's doubt about "this technological terror" resonates with the moment of friction between the cyborg and the Emperor in the first throne room scene.

    This resonates further with Anakin's "interesting" views on government in AOTC. From his perspective, there is simply a right way to do things ... and those who disagree will learn to agree--through coersion and, if need be, by force.

    Therefore, if Vader is given the opportunity to destroy the Emperor--and Palpatine has foreseen Luke's ability to do just that--then he would naturally desire to depose the old man, and set up shop the way he sees fit!
     
  13. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 24, 2000
    Obi-Ewan, don't be silly! Vader was just biding his time, waiting for Luke to capitulate to the Dark Side so they could gang up on the Emperor and do the old boy in.

    Killing Palpatine would have been Luke's turn to the Dark Side. "Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the Dark Side will be complete."
     
  14. D_Lowe

    D_Lowe Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2002
      "One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the Dark Side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."
      --George Lucas
     
  15. JEDI_MASTER_KANE

    JEDI_MASTER_KANE Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 2, 2002
    Dammit, D Lowe, you beat me to it!!!

    That is the very nature of the Sith Lords.
    The Master takes the apprentice who bides his time until he's in a position to oust his master. Thereby insuring the continuation of the Sith order.
     
  16. laser_sword

    laser_sword Jedi Youngling

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    Apr 25, 2003
    I guess you missed the part where lightning courses through Darth Vader's entire body, illuminating his skeleton from within.

    The skeleton face appeared after the Emperor had died. Vader's passing followed soon after. The Emperor fell down the elevator shaft and appeared to explode. The extreme light on Vader's mask could have just been a reflection from the light with strong wind. Maybe the light on the make was symbolic of Vader being released from the Emperor. When Vader raised then carried The Emperor some lightening struck Vader's armor which amounted to nothing. Vader went down for the good after destroying the Emperor. In the end, Vader made the save & brought balance.

    It's just interesting that Vader would drop his long time light saber, then moments later turn face.

    I watched Luke's light saber rage but was never sold. Luke did not appear that different then in ESB. No more training did he require between the end of ESB & ROTJ. Vader took too many bumps in ESB & ROTC in their prior duels. Vader kept coming back. There must have been some logical explanation why he had limited offense. Prior to the final duel sequence Vader seemed fine. Based on the next sequence of scenes, emotion, shock,and surprise might have directed Vader. This is literally the same scene/sequence of events as ESB, during the final duel on Cloud City, Luke is caught off guard and loses his right hand. The roles are reversed. Vader allows Luke to live, then Luke extends the same courtesy to Vader. Luke snapped, selling anger and rage not murder.

    How did Vader suddenly know Leia was his daughter?

    The emperor wanted a new apprentice.

    Who received a worse beat down? Luke was defenseless, the new hope became Vader. Luke had zero chance of survival without Vader's intervention.
     
  17. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 24, 2000
    D_Lowe, your icon speaks more than that quote does.
     
  18. Dark Lady Mara

    Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 19, 1999
    I watched Luke's light saber rage but was never sold. Luke did not appear that different then in ESB.

    Luke may have been doing essentially the same thing at the end of the RotJ duel as he was in the ESB duel, but the context is what gives those scenes their meaning. In ESB, Luke doesn't seem to know about better than to slash around wildly. He probably had no experience dueling, since the only referenced instances of Luke using his lightsaber while in training on Dagobah are Yoda's tests in which he has Luke cut up a silver bar he throws in the air in the ESB novelization. Even though Luke's actions are wild in that duel, what's in his mind is still of the light side, since he refuses Vader's temptation to use his anger. Luke may be doing the wrong thing, but he has the right intentions.

    In RotJ, after Luke had matured and used the time since his meeting with Vader on Bespin to reflect on the Force and what it means to be a Jedi, he should have been better able to resist Vader's goading. Instead, he gives into the temptation of the dark side, and that's what his lightsaber rage under the catwalk shows.

    By that time, Luke should have known better, but he did it anyway.
     
  19. Obi-Wan_Skywalker_29

    Obi-Wan_Skywalker_29 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Mar 1, 2003
    Good call Obi-Ewan, good explanation Dark Lady Mara.
     
  20. laser_sword

    laser_sword Jedi Youngling

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    Apr 25, 2003
    Dark Lady Mara: As for the light saber rage under the catwalk, Luke snapping prior to the duel sold for the most part, but not killing his own father. Luke told the luminated OB1 he could never kill his own father which came to pass. Luke seemed to be swinging wildly under the catwalk.
    The final duel scenes in ESB & ROTJ were basically the same with the roles reversed. Time might have gone by between both episodes for Luke to think, but what became of training? Vader stated Luke had control of his feeling and was taught well. Yet, one mention of Leia & Luke cracks.
    Vader showed no indication or interest in removing the Emperor. That just might not have been an option especially if Vader needs the Emperor in order to live. When Vader's helmet was removed Anakin looked as though he had been brought back from the dead. How else do you explain the Vader's last quote while wearing the mask "nothing can stop that now." Nothing could stop his passing with or without the mask on so there was nothing to lose. Nothing can stop Vader's passing now that the Emperor has passed on perhaps. What if Vader did not block Luke's light saber swing. Would the emperor have died? Probably not. If the light saber did kill the emperor, then would Vader have died? Probably so. The only logical conclusion from ROTJ was Vader died because he killed the Emperor.
    How did Vader become disfigured in Episode 3? Did Anakin die in episode 3? Was there anything behind Vader losing his light saber? Was the light saber constructed with pieces of a crystal or artifact? What is behind Vader last quote while under the dark mask? Why does The Emperor's appearance transform form human to creature by ROTJ? You have to wait until Episode 3. All one can do is guess for now.
     
  21. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 24, 2000
    If the light saber did kill the emperor, then would Vader have died? Probably so. The only logical conclusion from ROTJ was Vader died because he killed the Emperor.

    Yes and no. He died because Palpatine's lightning electrocuted his life support systems in his suit. It was the suit directly that kept him alive, not Palpatine.
     
  22. lorn_zahl

    lorn_zahl Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2002
    I tend to think that Darth Vader was completely and totally dominated by the darkside until that momemt the Emporer tried killing the only thing he still loved.......

    In short, Vader was still under the pall of the darkside. It was unavoidable. Plus for all we know, Sidious could have telepathicaly told Vader to obey or die.

     
  23. laser_sword

    laser_sword Jedi Youngling

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    Apr 25, 2003
    He died because Palpatine's lightning electrocuted his life support systems in his suit. It was the suit directly that kept him alive, not Palpatine.

    Again, Vader stated "nothing can stop that now" with no specific reason or explanation. There was no answer provided. Luke never asked why. Vader did block Luke from striking the Emperor with his light saber. If Luke struck the Emperor with his light Saber, Vader might have died with no lightening involved. You just don't know.

    Did Vader want the emporer dead?
    Probably, but I am not sold that Vader could exist without him. Again, this is all guesswork there has been no answer provided.
     
  24. lorn_zahl

    lorn_zahl Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2002
    I also think it was pure instinct for Vader to protect his master, he was still under the weight of the darkside and its pull is unimaginable. Deep down he wants the Emporer dead, but if he showed his true feelings he'd die.

    oh not to mention that Luke would turn to the darkside.

     
  25. laser_sword

    laser_sword Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2003
    *I also think it was pure instinct for Vader to protect his master.
    -I agree. Vader could have saved himself in the process. One protecting two. But, still the unstoppable quote & loss of his light saber are quite telling.
    I must obey my master or I will perish.

    *The weight of the darkside and its pull is unimaginable.
    -But, what really broke the pull & when?
    Luke cracked, then Vader broke away.

    *Deep down he wants the Emporer dead, but if he showed his true feelings he'd die.
    -I agree, but at what point in time? How much deception could Vader tolerate vs. possibly returning from the dead. Could vader live without the Emperor? The lightening only seemed to reach Vader's helmet. Vader collapsed for good after the emperor was already engulfed in his own lightening causing damage, then thrown down the shaft and destroyed.

    Luke would turn to the darkside.
    Luke lost his temper which is apart from a turn to the dark side. Vader might have been deceived or had limited options. Luke was really pitched the idea. Luke was more concerned about turning his father back, then embracing the dark side. Luke did not ever appear to be sold on the dark side's power and control. How did Vader know about a sister/Daughter? Did he read Luke's mind? Did the Emperor make that known to end thier conflict for good?
     
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