ST Did Yoda hint he learned the mistake the Jedi made in ROTS?.

When Yoda is talking to Luke, he alludes the Jedi were too literate in their last years, and did not follow their feelings and the will of the force enough, or accept that they had faults of their own, and actually help Anakin through his, instead of berating him. They were too "text book" high, instead of mentoring and mindful.
These are just my views.

 

Yes probably.

Yoda actually comes to that realization in ROTS when he has his conversation (which was sadly never shown in the film) with Qui-Gon.

 

I think he gradually comes to that realization across all the films, prequels and originals included. Yoda is 900 years old, and as wide as he’s in he’s very much set in his ways. Not only has he belonged to the same Jedi dogma for nearly a millennium, he’s spent much of his life as the highest ranking protector of it. It’s hard to rewire yourself after all that time, and harder still to recognize that there was something within the Jedi that gradually poisoned and corrupted them from their original state over hundreds of years. Not driven them to the Dark Side, per se, it pulled them from their foundational ideals and overrode their personal connections to the Force withunquestioning adherence to strict one-size-fits-all rules and codes.

In AotC (I could be wrong, maybe he says it in RotS) he alluded to the growing problem of Jedi arrogance. In RotS he says the prophecy may have been entirely misread (pertaining,
I think, to equating the Chosen One destroying the Sith with bringing balance). Then the entire Order collapsed, from a conspiracy that was sitting right under the Jedi’s noses that they never saw coming. That, and their participation as generals in a war they had no part in set them up as the perfect fall guys and directly conflicted with their ideals.

But the final straw was Luke’s redemption of Vader, after Obi-Wan and Yoda seemed entirely convinced he could never be turned back to the light. Luke proved the Jedi could be something different than the kind Yoda and Obi-Wan has been. If you pair that with Kylo falling in a similar fashion, and destroying the burgeoning new Jedi Order (which seemed built upon the philosophical foundation of the old fallen order) overnight, then it becomes clear something isn’t working on a core level. Thus, burn it down (literally and figuratively) and start from scratch, keeping in mind the successes and failures of the past while looking forward to a future that blazes forth its own direction.

 

Although don't we see the Jedi texts with Rey at the end of TLJ? Being a force ghost, yoda probably knew that he wasn't destroying them. So its hard to say in regards to that. It could have just been to shock Luke out of his current mood. He could believe that the texts could help Rey learn traditional ways but he may also believe that because of her experiences she is going to forge a different path anyway. So she will likely mix what she learns from the texts with what she explores herself. But to me, with what little we have learned about Luke's journey in between trilogies, it seems that is what Luke did. So it's hard to say what it means for the future or what Yoda might be hoping for.

 

Which doesn't make sense, because the whole point of ROTJ is Luke learning the lesson of humility and ultimate compassion and coming into his own as a true Jedi who will restore the Order as it is supposed to be. TLJ implies that there was something else wrong with the Order that needs to be burned away so that Rey can start clean, but it never actually articulates what this something could possibly be. That's because TLJ is a film with a veneer of intellectuality and subversiveness but actually lacking in any philosophical substance whatsoever.

 

Exactly. Whatever perceived problems there were with the Jedi Order (which to me was always about the individuals in the jedi Order or specific points in time of leadership ie the Qui-Gon way as opposed to the Yoda way) are now past.

The problems of the Jedi are not and clearly not shown to be intrinsic to the Jedi themselves. If that were the case then Luke should have been the last Jedi after ROTJ and certainly be directed to pass on what he has learned.

Even if for whatever reason a person thinks their was some inherent problem in the old Jedi Order then they are over and done with and Luke would rebuild a Jedi Order in his own way not one based on the past.

TLJ paradoxically says the problem is apparently inherent to the Jedi not the individuals so then Luke should be the last Jedi and Rey should replace them with some new foundation. Except that isn't what happens and Rey is now a Jedi and going to pull knowledge from the selfsame ancients texts that founded the Jedi Order in the first place!

So the whole thing is doomed already by TLJ's surface interpretation. Of course since Luke was seen to basically be completely wrong about just about everything to do with the Jedi then he's wrong yet again and the flaw was not in the Jedi but in himself.

Luke is Qui-Gon not Yoda at the end of ROTJ. Luke has grown beyond his "failing" masters. Yet in TLJ he becomes an actual total failure of a Jedi Master the likes of which have never been seen outside of turning to the Dark side. Now Luke is Yoda x10 and Yoda looks way better because whatever else he got wrong he learned from his mistakes and Luke didn't learn from his triumphs.

 

It's actually in TCW. Complete with voice by Liam Neeson.

 

And again, the idea that the Jedi concept is fundamentally flawed and must be reformed by Rey would at least be a coherent theme, even if one that is completely at odds with prior story intent, but TLJ doesn't even bother to outline what is flawed about it. That's because the vague "burn the past but save what's valuable from it" theme is once again a meta analysis of the Star Wars franchise rather than being about anything to do with the actual real world.

The flaw of the old Jedi was their arrogance and their attachment to a political order which was unsustainable except through a betrayal of their own principles. Luke successfully confronts both these flaws within himself and overcomes them in the OT, leading to his declaration of himself as a Jedi and the titular promise of the Order's return in all its former glory.

So the Luke which appears in TLJ simply makes no sense. Luke has already grappled with and reconciled the fact that his mentors are indeed flawed and human. He's already achieved the wisdom which had earlier eluded them and led to the downfall of the Jedi. The idea that Luke would be shocked by his predecessor's failure thirty years later, and the idea that he'd forget the hard-fought wisdom which he achieved through his redemption of his father, are both ludicrous betrayals of the character. The only reason this Luke exists is in order to rationalize the re-establishment of the old status quo which TFA is responsible for. The only way the story of the Star Wars galaxy can have failed to move forward is if Luke Skywalker and the New Jedi Order failed to move forward.

So in this sense the idea that Rian Johnson's Luke is a betrayal of the story Abrams started to tell in TFA is, I think, mistaken. It's actually the only logical consequence of what Abrams created.

 

Luke making no sense in TLJ is - I argue - a function of deliberate withholding of context, including significant backstory that has, as yet, only been vaguely alluded to.

Luke appears to be bemoaning a Jedi Order he was once part of - ie, when he was training Ben. But he was not always of that philosophy. Your assessment of who Luke really is is correct and is confirmed by what glimpses we've been given of him in the EU.

LFL has not forgotten who Luke became by the end of RotJ. That's why we're told, in the TLJ novelization, that Luke dismissed the idea of reviving the Jedi Order due to its numerous flaws and decided to search for "the origins of the faith."

And yet at some point he apparently did a 180 and attempted to restart the Order, apparently the same sort of Order he bemoans in TLJ.

Why?

We know there IS a reason because LFL/the SG has been careful to establish that Luke was completely different from the PT Jedi until some point in the backstory.

 

Not that there is any reason to put stock in anything outside the movie but that right there shows that they factually have forgotten who Luke was at the end of ROTJ.

Even if he believed that version of the Jedi Order was flawed in some way that wouldn't be his Jedi Order. Nevermind that version of the Jedi Order was essentially the same one that was founded over a 1,000 generations before and who set up the whole situation of being guardians of peace and justice in the Republic. That is exactly why the Sith were able to use that against them.

The origins of the faith are the origins that lead exactly to the establishment of the Jedi in that situation. That they were bound to act to protect the Republic at all costs. They were attached to it when their own philosophy was non-attachment. It took thousands of years for the Sith to catch on to this weakness.

 

I read the idea of burning the temple yet keeping the books as being a general critique of religion as opposed to spirituality. Yes to spirituality, no to religion.

The idea is that the Jedi Order had become a religion, with all sorts of rituals and trappings that had slowly clouded the actual spiritual message, and that's why it collapsed. It would be akin to saying the true loving messages of Jesus have been corrupted into forms of prejudice by certain religious leaders today. Yoda was saying you need to shed all the stuff religion adds to the mix and focus on the central ideas of the source text. I don't think the film did a good job in making this clear, and therefore it feels hypocritical.

 

eveything he says and teaches in the ot shows Yoda learned the mistakes the Jedi made.

 

Yeah learned the mistakes of the Jedi and helped Luke in the OT but let Luke train Ben the same exact way the PT Jedi were trained. Then again all of that could have been out of Yoda’s control and probably warned Luke 1000 tines.

 

I'm not convinced Yoda learned all the mistakes of the Jedi in the OT, given the idea that he didn't even intend on telling Luke that Vader was his father, even right up until his death. And even then, the fact that he had to tell him at all was "unfortunate" in his mind. Not sure if this necessarily means Yoda didn't understand all the Jedi's mistakes, but it certainly shows he was wrong right up to the end, at least in retrospect, given the fact that it was Luke's love for his father that was the key to victory, if you will. At the very least, it proves the Jedi philosophy (assuming Yoda understood and was preaching the philosophy properly as intended, if not him, then who?) was deeply flawed. And Yoda never learned this lesson, or at least he never learned it while he was alive. By TLJ, he appears to be much wiser than he was in ROTJ. By TLJ, he appears to have thrown away all of the theories and assumptions that lead to this kind of arrogance, and instead feels Rey only need to focus on the source books themselves, not all the extra noise. Lying to Luke was the arrogance of the Jedi, their aim to control and manipulate a situation in which only the truth could settle. They became so arrogant they were willing to cover up the truth because they thought they knew better. The fact that the Jedi lied to Luke when he trusted them was a major betrayal and should not be overlooked. The truth was the only way to go, and instead of treating Luke with respect, they tried to manipulate and use him, and even after it back fired big time, as in Luke lost his hand... Yoda and Ben were still telling him to confront Vader with the intention of killing him (Kenobi in no uncertain terms tells Luke he must kill his father to save the universe.) It was Luke, and not the Jedi or their beliefs, that led to Vader killing the Emperor. In fact, I wonder whether throwing the light saber down was even a Jedi principle. It certainly wasn't something Luke was taught. If anything, he transcended the Jedi principles he was taught and found something even more powerful....

Actually, I pose the serious question...was Luke even a Jedi at that point? Or had he eclipsed their ideas?

 

I think Yoda acknowledges that the Jedi lost Anakin, just as Luke has lost Ben. Not that the Jedi didn't do what felt right. But that what they say they do and what they tell others to do (and not do), particularl regarding attachments, isn't always possible or appropriate.

Luke's actions in ROTJ were purely to do with his attachment to his father (and his sister and their friends). At turns Luke was afraid, angry, even hateful. What he discovered was that having or professing to have attachment is irrelevant if you act a certain way. His father's reluctance to turn his back on his master was no reason to destroy Vader. He would not betray himself and his feelings about his father or his ideals to aspire to be a Jedi, even if that meant his death. The alternative was too high a price to pay. And Anakin realised that he could not meet the price for remaining devoted to the dark side.

 

No philosophy is perfect. There will always be individuals with flaws leading or belonging to an imperfect organization.

 

I think Yoda must have realized the faults of the Jedi in all those years of solitude. The ROTS book describes Anakin's visit with Yoda in greater detail. This is a big step for Anakin confiding in Yoda like this, and he is very frustrated when Yoda gives him the textbook answer that he has heard 100 times.

 

The newer junior novelization of ROTJ had Obi-Wan and Yoda at least thinking about the possibility that The Jedi are wrong about some things and Luke is right:


"Unfortunate that you rushed to face him ... that incomplete was your training. Not ready for the burden were you."
"I'm sorry," says Luke.
But he isn't. And Yoda doesn't truly expect him to be.
They both know the reasons for Luke's actions. Luke rushed off to save his friends. He let his feelings come before his duty.
Now, in these last minutes of his long life, Yoda wonders if Luke might have been right. If, perhaps, one's feelings are more important than one's duty.
Perhaps ... but also more dangerous. So very dangerous.

...

Obi-Wan considers Luke. He cannot see the future as well as Yoda could, but he does sense that Luke will not be able to bury his feelings.
But, just as Yoda did, Obi-Wan wonders if, perhaps, that might not be a failing at all.
Obi-Wan and Yoda and Qui-Gon too, were masters of the Force. They buried their feelings and used the Force at its fullest power.
And they failed to stop the Emperor. They didn't even stop Anakin.
Perhaps Luke's feelings really will serve him.
But if not ... all will be lost.

 

he definitely is critical of the actions of himself and the rest of the Jedi Order, though he still seems to champion their monastic way of life. Whether or not that includes having no love interest is unclear.

TLJ:
"Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery [Yoda Grunt] but weakness, folly, failure also. Yes failure most of all"

ESB:
"Wars not make one great"
"Adventure, excitement, a Jedi craves not these things"
"A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack"

TCW:
"No longer certain that one ever wins a war, I am. For in fighting the battles, the bloodshed, already lost we have"

Rebels perhaps gives us the best insight:
"And your master, tell you everything must he? Your path, you must decide"
"In our arrogance, joined the conflict swiftly we did. Fear, anger, hate. Consumed by the dark side, the jedi were"
"A challenge lifelong it is, not to bend fear into anger"
"How Jedi choose to win, the question is"

 

From the movies alone, in my opinion post-Ep III Yoda acknowledged that the dogma of the Jedi was to harsh-unflexible and the arrogance of the Council too great to sustain itself...specially from backstabbing Sith and ruthless-corrupt politicians.

By accepting post-teen and reckless Luke Skywalker as his (last) student in ESB, he was breaking away from the dogma.
By accepting, in TLJ, that he himself made mistakes even as a 900 yo Grand Master, he was acknowledging the arrogance of the Council that ultimately led to the Rule of the Sith controlling the whole galaxy from the shadows, right under their venerable noses.

The last lesson from Yoda was that a true Jedi Master has to be wise-humble enough to accept his/her mistakes AND confront them. The path of the Jedi is always knowledge, acquired even from gross failures, not a nihilistic path of self-destruction out of guilt, shame, bitterness and/or desperation (TLJ Luke in a nutshell)

 

What other answer is there?

"People die Anakin, and it's okay to be sad about that."
"Oh okay, well I guess I'm cool with Padme dying now. Thanks, Yoda!"

Yoda told Anakin what he needed to hear. It just wasn't what he wanted to hear.

 

I don't know maybe a little empathy?

 

There was quite a bit of empathy in there. He told him to focus on what good things he got out of this person, not on the fear of loss. The problem is, without Anakin telling him what this truly is about, Yoda can't possibly give a more precise answer. You can't go to someone, tell only half the picture, and expect the other to be able to help you.

There was nothing Yoda could have said that would have given Anakin what he wanted to hear. Because what he wanted to hear was "forget everything we taught you, here's the secret to keep someone from dying".

 

He did show him empathy. What I find bizarre is this notion that all it would have taken was for Yoda to be even more empathatic, and somehow Anakin would have been okay with Padme maybe dying, and he would have stopped looking for a way to prevent it. That was never going to happen. It's like we're not even watching the same movies.

People seem to be forgetting that Anakin is a big boy. He isn't a Youngling. He's a Jedi Knight, well on his way to becoming a Jedi Master. He shouldn't need to be eased into the idea that he needs to learn how to let go of people.

Another thing is that a lot of people seem to exhibit an instinctive hostility to Eastern notions of non-attachment. Probably has something to do with the wanton materialism of the Western culture most of us are steeped in, I don't know.

 

If I remember the book correctly Yoda immediately thought Anakin saw visions of Obi-Wan's death on Utapau. Yoda was concerned Anakin would hunt down Grevious and instead gave him the answer to celebrate Obi-Wan's ascension rather than blame his killer.

Except Anakin wasn't losing his mentor and brother so the advice didn't land